New EU vacuums and half the suction

[Mike81]

I just read the 2015 Finnish consumer reports test about canister vacuum cleaners. One thing was very interesting. Measured suction (air watts) power results clearly shows how much the suction has dropped with the new low wattage models.
Quite dramatic drop in suction.

Some examples:

2015 models----------------motor & airwatts

Miele Classic C1 Ecoline-------800W 167W
Miele Complete C3 EcoLine---800W 214W
Electrolux UltraOne------------785W 207W

Older models

Electrolux UltraOne--------2200W 427W
Miele S8-----------------------2200W 379W

 

[sebo4me]

Yes there will be a drop in suction. There will be members posting on here that that suction isn't everything and that you can make up for the loss of suction with tweaks but I am not convinced!

 

[Mike81]

Exactly.
For example Electrolux UltraOne 427w > 207w. That's more than half the drop in suction.

 

[sebo4me]

[No message]

 

[vintagerepairer]

In order to establish the cleaning performance, it is important to know how many air watts are needed to clean surfaces. This information I have never been able to find. Nowhere can I read that more suction means better cleaning - there has to be an optimum level to work to.

 

[sebo4me]

No clean air motor will produce as much airflow as the direct air Kirby produces at the cleaner head and now with the reduced wattage the gap will be even wider.

 

[sebo_fan]

But does it really matter? It doesn't matter to me because, well, the X uprights and indeed the Sebo vacuums I have BAR one K1 Pet model all have energy efficient motors anyway. Even my Vax VCU02 upright / Hoover Signature in the U.S also has a energy friendly motor.

For years buyers have been led to believe suction as its most strongest is better. Even Electrolux and Hoover back in the day constantly used higher power to sell on their flagship ranges. Hoover at least had one principle going for them by the time they had “invented” the domestic upright vacuum with the beater bar.

What most buyers don’t tend to realise is that they don't need to throw out their existing vacuum just because it may have a higher motor that is now classed as energy inefficient by EU law.

Not all vacuums perform the same way with these new EU law passed motors in my experience.

Air watts are a fad Benny - they not usually tested by the motor but at the hose end which can decrease over time due to the flow rate.

 

[sebo4me]

Next year we will be down to 900w.
It matters to me because it feels like we are taking a step backwards.

 

[Mike81]

Well these results are tested from the hose end.
Suction isn't everything I agree. Nozzle design is extremely important, but with this much drop they better design very good nozzles for these vacuums.
Most important figure is the airflow: liters per second or the cfm.

One Example: Philips PerformerPro
airflow
2200W 51 L/S
650 W 30 L/S

 

[sebo_fan]

And what happens when the bag starts to fill up?

 

[Mike81]

Of course airflow will decrease, but in this case when the bag is almost full. Thanks to the high quality bags. (S-Bag Ultra Long Performance). Those bags are very well known for good filtaration and not loosing the suction.
Top of the line Electroluxes uses same bags.

 

[sebo4me]

I don't think Miele bags lose much airflow as it fills but even if they do usnt it better to start with more airflow in the first place?

 

[sebo_fan]

For how long and on what kind of debris? See, it is impossible. Just as it is impossible to rely on these air watts stats at the very least.

That X4 that you love so much - it has a far lower rate of power than a Hoover Purepower 2100 watt upright = and yet you'll know how well the bags fill and last for. It doesn't come down to having highest suction power.

 

[delaneymeegan]

I'm thinking this is going to be a case of less is MORE. Why?

1. Just having super suction doesn't mean you can clean better. What's important is getting a clean house, not a vacuum with more suction. If I can get my house clean with no vacuum at all, that's even better.

2. Higher wattage motors make more noise. Not desirable.

3. Stronger suction motors can damage the bags and the pores of the bag would become clogged easier and possibly explode.

4. Stronger motor moves more air. More EXHAUST air being pushed out the other end of the machine means more air turbulence in the room which can cause MORE dust in the room.

5. with stronger suction, dirt and debri flies through the hose faster and when it abruptly lands in the bag can enter at such a fast rate, it can damage the bag.

6. Motors that aren't spinning as fast do not wear down the carbon brushes as fast and the motors will last longer.



Some vacuums have such strong motors that the manufacturer has literally had to put holes in the body of the machine to allow air in to keep the motor from burning out. I'm referring here to a Kenmore canister from the early 1980s. I noticed there is literally a 3/8 hole hidden in the bottom corner, toward the front.

When you have a motor rated at 4 h.p., which is double power of motors from the 70s, but you have the same hose size, something has to give. But when it's running, you can hear the annoying sound or whistle of the air from that hole.

In the U.S., I watched in the 80s as the vacuum makers got into this pathetic h.p. competiion starting in about 1983. Each year the vacs increased about 2/10s of a horse power to the point where in the 90s they were at 5 h.p. It's not necessary.

 

[sebo4me]

I have a 2200w Miele S8 and none of the above points apply

 

[sebo_fan]

There are a few good points in what you’ve said, Delaney. However there are a few points I’d like to make.

Higher wattage motors don’t always make more noise - depends on if the brand has put in noise insulation in or actually produced a quieter motor in the first place.

Strong and weak suction can still destroy a paper bag. One of the reasons to why so many brands now offer the synthetic material fleece type bags - they are less likely to burst and being electrostatic means the airflow is maintained through the bag with dirt and dust held back.

Lots of brands have an air valve relief hole on the back of the upright OR a canister vac. It is there to stop the strain on the motor if the bag gets clogged, not necessarily having strong motors.

 

[turbo500]

The question is, how much suction does it actually take to clean the surface?

Let's not forget that we managed perfectly well with 250w Hoover Juniors and 550w Electrolux 500's & Twin Turbo's for years, all of which clean perfectly well.

When using both as straight suction, there is no noticeable cleaning performance between my 2200w Miele S5 and my 700w Electro Comfort. So that's 1500w of wasted power as the extra suction doesn't add any cleaning advantage.

Equally, my new 620w Henry cleans far better than my old 1200w Henry, largely due to the redesigned floortool.

We've also has numerous reports on here too of how well the new 700w Sebo Felix models perform.

 

[vintagerepairer]

Turbo500, that's exactly what I asked in message #4

 

[Mike81]

I don't have anything against the new lower wattage vacuums. In fact I do my daily vacuuming with my old Volta U258 made in 1988. It has 1000W twin fan motor and I think it has enough suction to my needs. For carpet vacuuming I use my Kärcher upright with 1030W motor. No complains at all.
But why on earth some new low wattage vacuums (with low suction) has so loud and high pitched sound? I mean that my old canisters have very pleasant and soft sound. Totally different than those screamers. Mostly cheap bagless models.
And here is the video of turbo brush spin speed comparison. I actually can't hear (or feel) the difference between the 330AW Electrolux UltraPerformer and old Volta U258.
This was when I was wondering how this is possible.

 

[oliveoiltinfoil]

Well we have the wonderful EU to thank for this. As we know, unelected bureaucrats should indeed be telling us what watts the motors in our vacuums have!

Of course it isnt as black and white as that but the immediate impact is yes, suction has decreased overall. I am all for a better designed vacuum, better floorheads and an advancement in motor technology, i mean i dont know why manufacturers aren't getting on the brushless motor bandwagon. The washing machine industry is.

 

[vintagerepairer]

Those old Volta cleaners (we had them as Electrolux here) were very well designed with good internal mouldings to keep the dust bag well away from the filter at the back. This allowed air to flow all around the bag. These cleaners in the UK were very powerful but then they cost a lot of money to buy and so they could afford to be well built. Having said that, the Philips cleaners of the same period were very cheap to buy but were equally as well designed to maximise suction power.

 

[sebo_fan]

I don’t see what the different is though Mike.

There have always been loud and cheap bagged AND bagless vacuums.

Take my Hoover TeliosPlus. It has a 2300 watt motor. It is very loud to use.
Compared to my previous Miele S5211 which had a 2200 watt motor - quiet to use and even on the highest setting it wasn’t as painful to my ears as the Hoover TeliosPlus and a model before the EU law came in.

Though motor sound in decibels are measured by the EU label, they are not given a particular statistic in order to pass what is acceptable and what isn’t - unlike the other tests for suction on hard floors and carpets.

 

[vintagerepairer]

The noise of a cleaner all comes down to what the manufacturer wants to do. Historically, the cheapest cleaners in production were amongst the noisiest. Yes, there were some very quiet cheap vacuums and likewise some very noisy expensive cleaners, but broadly speaking the overall quality and attention to the build of the more pricey cleaners meant they were often quieter.

For many years the Goblin cleaners were noisy, none more so than their wet & dry machines, but even before that their traditional cylinder types were much noisier than the Electrolux alternatives. Their uprights were never too pleasing on the ears either.

For me, I could tolerate loud noises more than I could high pitched whistles, which can make me feel very sick indeed.

 

[floor-a-matic]

I think what U need there in Europe is a good old vintage American Electrolux like a Model G, 1205 or Super J; I bet they'll outclean anything made today

Do U have that kind of machines there, but under a different name?

 

[n0oxy]

lower power motors

Kind of makes me wonder if they will pass similar laws here in the United States. The electrolux ultra one, at least the version that is sold here, is one of the quietest and strongest suction canister vacuums I have seen. The Riccar prima is right up there with it, and the Perfect Canister has just as much suction, though not as quiet. Many of the wet dry vacs that are sold here are quite loud, I have a shop vac 6 gallon, so it's not that big, but you can hardly hear yourself think when it's running. This whole thing about lower power motors kind of makes me wonder what kind of motor was used in vacuums such as the Electrolux 1205, I've never seen one of these but I bet they cleaned very well.

 

[vintagerepairer]

The "problem" with the EU regulations on vacuum cleaners in the UK is that many people here do not like being in Europe and will fight any changes to the death, irrespective of whether or not it's a good idea.

In the case of vacuum cleaners, I think a reduction in power consumption can only be a good thing, especially when vacuum cleaners in years gone by were able to produce outstanding cleaning results from a much lower wattage motor than we've seen in recent times. Manufacturers only have to look at how it was done then, and in fact it seems they may well have done, now that Numatic Henry & other cleaners have a hose which is much wider at the cleaner end than it is at the wand end, as was the case with so many Electrolux cylinder cleaners years and years ago.

I do not agree with everything the EU wants, but I like to think I look at it in detail before I form an opinion. The scaremongering which went on in the UK press when the wattages of vacuum cleaners was capped was simply staggering.

 

[sebo_fan]

Yes but respectively in the U.S Canisters come with a PN as standard usually. That's more noise to factor into the equation.

Noise factor hasn't always been such a great marketing trick that every brand show; only Miele are probably one of the more famous brands for making adverts featuring the noise of their motors. It has only been in recent times that other brands are showing off quiet vacuums.

A good old vintage Electrolux or similar might be welcomed in the UK and Europe, but it has to be cost effective.

 

[Mike81]

Best new canisters what I have experienced are the Miele S8, Electrolux UltraOne and Philips PerformerPro. Those are also been most successful in the tests many times. Unfortunately SEBO is not sold here.
We actually have something that is quite close to the good old vintage American Electrolux. It's called Lux Intelligence and it's only being sold door to door salesman. Price is just insanely high (about 1500-2000€).
Here is also screenshot of the test I was talking about (best 3).

 

[delaneymeegan]

Sebofan-
"Lots of brands have an air valve relief hole on the back of the upright OR a canister vac. It is there to stop the strain on the motor if the bag gets clogged, not necessarily having strong motors. "
That sounds like a good idea and, an option I've not seen in the U.S.



Turbofan-
"Let's not forget that we managed perfectly well with 250w Hoover Juniors and 550w Electrolux 500's & Twin Turbo's for years, all of which clean perfectly well."
Exactly !

and

"... redesigned floortool. " Very true. Theres two areas to a functional vacuum. One is the suction. The other is the tools used for grooming carpet and upholstery that lift the dirt to make it available for the suction to wisk into the machine.
Even a meager suction motor can do a good job with a well equipped PN or floor tool.




NoOxy-
".... what kind of motor was used in vacuums such as the Electrolux 1205"
It was most likely 8-9 amp.
When I bought my Ultralux Classic, the last of the metal canisters, in 1993, I asked the salesperson what the H.P. was. As I mentioned earlier, at that time most vacuums were being labeled with the H.P. The Salesperson said it had the equivalent of a 2.2 h.p. motor.
His response, when I naively said "That's kind of low, isn't it?" was, "It doesn't need any more than that" and, he was right. Though at the time, I didn't fully get it.

My Ultralux Classic has a 9 amp suction motor, and when you factor in the pn, it totals 11 amps, according to the label.