New EU vacuums and half the suction
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sebo_fan
Well-known member
Isnt there a little bit of hypocrisy going on here?
All of a sudden 2200 watt vacuums are really bad. You had your choice at the time of purchase going with 2000 watt vacuums, or 1600 watts or even lower than that. There's simply nothing wrong with these vacuums other than the fact that they have ALL been sold to the buyer on the belief that suction will be more powerful. Even U.S brands do the same on higher suction power claims - this isn't just a European thing.
The reality though is that as mentioned we've done well with vacuums with lower power since they were invented.
All of a sudden 2200 watt vacuums are really bad. You had your choice at the time of purchase going with 2000 watt vacuums, or 1600 watts or even lower than that. There's simply nothing wrong with these vacuums other than the fact that they have ALL been sold to the buyer on the belief that suction will be more powerful. Even U.S brands do the same on higher suction power claims - this isn't just a European thing.
The reality though is that as mentioned we've done well with vacuums with lower power since they were invented.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
You can still get a clean home regardless with a low suction vacuum. The SEBO C series for example had a 1500 watt motor and was perfectly acceptable. Even before SEBO, vintage vacs like Electrolux, Hoover and other major brands all offered 800 watts, some were even 500 watts. But that was back in the day without HEPA filters and other features.
Performance and power ratings of vacuums--Realtors selling homes---"Location,Location,LOCATION!"Vacuums----"Design,Design,DESIGN!"The design of the machine is what is really going to determine its performance-not so much the power of the motor.We see so many POORLY designed machines-no wonder why they need the high wattage motors.Now look at a properly designed machine-it can do the job with a SMALLER motor.Think those regulations were sort of trying to force vacuum cleaner makers to redesign their machines.On the other hand-at how most households use their vacuums-say not more than a couple hours a week-don't think the high wattage ones are really going to drain the system when used that often.In any home-a vacuum cleaner is not running continuously.
turbo500
Well-known member
I've got a vintage Hoover 417 cylinder with a 550w motor that cleans better than my neighbours modern high powered Vax pet thing. Why? Decent suction coupled with a well designed floortool.
Let's not forget that prior to the new legislation, the Sebo X1.1 was 1150w and the original X series was 800w. Both still cleaned equally as well as the 1300w X4 AND considerably better than a crappo 2000w Hoover Purepower. We also have had good reports about the 700w Felix from members on here and when I tried one in John Lewis, I found no noticeable difference in performance between that and the 1300w model.
Let's not forget that prior to the new legislation, the Sebo X1.1 was 1150w and the original X series was 800w. Both still cleaned equally as well as the 1300w X4 AND considerably better than a crappo 2000w Hoover Purepower. We also have had good reports about the 700w Felix from members on here and when I tried one in John Lewis, I found no noticeable difference in performance between that and the 1300w model.
I hope you're right. 2200w down 800w is a big jump. But I'll take your word for it Chris. Back in the day they didn't have HEPA filters, that will cause a resistance to airflow.
I will have to purchase an 800w Miele model and test it against my S8. It I get the same performance then great I will be a very happy boy
I will have to purchase an 800w Miele model and test it against my S8. It I get the same performance then great I will be a very happy boy
Design matters surprisingly much. Nozzle, hose, straight as possible air path, seals, bag, filters...
I found this a bit hilarious video. There is modern 650w canister against the unknown very old canister. I just don't understand anything what she says.
I found this a bit hilarious video. There is modern 650w canister against the unknown very old canister. I just don't understand anything what she says.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Its not just the premiums that had low power though; one of the cheapest bagged cylinder vacs in the UK from Daewoo previously had a 1500 watt motor, the RC350BK model. The new one has an 800 watt motor.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
HEPA filters -they're not all the same.
Previously before the age of HEPA, there was S-Class filters which Miele used and of which SEBO's present filtration processes come under. S-Class filters are interesting in the sense that they use microfiltration layers made of electrostatic material.
But even at that S-Class and HEPA are not always the same; I have noticed it on some of the bagless and bagged uprights I've owned. Some brands fit a secondary foam filter under the HEPA filter which then blocks off more suction because it doesn't allow as much air to vent from the motor; others dont suffer from extra layers and just use paper pleated cartridges to trap emissions. If the paper cartridge isn't sealed enough, emissions can escape but it is minute that owners won't notice unless they have an emissions style tester.
Yet, whilst HEPA filters may well help to absorb strong odour and emissions, not all HEPA filters cut off suction.
Previously before the age of HEPA, there was S-Class filters which Miele used and of which SEBO's present filtration processes come under. S-Class filters are interesting in the sense that they use microfiltration layers made of electrostatic material.
But even at that S-Class and HEPA are not always the same; I have noticed it on some of the bagless and bagged uprights I've owned. Some brands fit a secondary foam filter under the HEPA filter which then blocks off more suction because it doesn't allow as much air to vent from the motor; others dont suffer from extra layers and just use paper pleated cartridges to trap emissions. If the paper cartridge isn't sealed enough, emissions can escape but it is minute that owners won't notice unless they have an emissions style tester.
Yet, whilst HEPA filters may well help to absorb strong odour and emissions, not all HEPA filters cut off suction.
suckolux
Well-known member
Well put I think
It's interesting to see how different manufacturers locate their filters. Some put Hepa filter before the motor. Basically a good idea when the post motor filter is just a standard microfilter to capture the carbon dust.
Then there is the case when they put too much unnecessary (in my mind) filters in their vacuums.
Here are one example. My parents Philips has 3-layer pre motor filter. Black foam filter in between the two microfilters. No sense at all. One microfilter should be enough. After the post Hepa filter is once again one black foam filter. I guess to reduce noise. In these pictures Hepa filter is pretty clean, but after years of use despite washing it (it is washable) it started to block the airflow. So it needed new Hepa filter.
Then there is the case when they put too much unnecessary (in my mind) filters in their vacuums.
Here are one example. My parents Philips has 3-layer pre motor filter. Black foam filter in between the two microfilters. No sense at all. One microfilter should be enough. After the post Hepa filter is once again one black foam filter. I guess to reduce noise. In these pictures Hepa filter is pretty clean, but after years of use despite washing it (it is washable) it started to block the airflow. So it needed new Hepa filter.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
From what I can remember Hoover Europe had a lot of nonsense filters with the Telios models. I owned a few of those and loved the vacuums - however when they brought out the Pure Filt paper dust bag it blocked the suction in 1700 watt models that were fitted with HEPA filter cartridges. Hoover did the wrong idea of fitting the HEPA cartridge over the motor in the bag chamber. This cut off suction and more so with the higher filter dust bag on board.
Usually I find the black foam filters were installed before microfilters were all the norm with the Hoover cylinders - they are cheap and easy to clean, particularly if you forget to empty the bag or if the bag has burst. It catches dust on the foam texture easily and can be brushed or washed off.
The problem I find with microfilters is that they can be difficult to wash because of their multilayers - the top surface gets clean but in the middle I can often see the dirt behind that can't be dislodged.
Usually I find the black foam filters were installed before microfilters were all the norm with the Hoover cylinders - they are cheap and easy to clean, particularly if you forget to empty the bag or if the bag has burst. It catches dust on the foam texture easily and can be brushed or washed off.
The problem I find with microfilters is that they can be difficult to wash because of their multilayers - the top surface gets clean but in the middle I can often see the dirt behind that can't be dislodged.
madaboutsebo
Well-known member
I've briefly used one of the new Eco 700 watt SEBO Felix and have to say there is no noticeable difference owning one of the standard 1300 watt Felix. I did think it was slightly more powerful the Eco model, quieter and a lot less hot air coming out of it! I don't use my Felix on full power and its performs fine!
I'll admit I like these new restrictions on motor wattage for vacuum cleaners, less is more as they say!! If a lower watt vacuum can clean and perform just as good as a higher watt vacuum then there no need for the higher watts ones surely!? Plus it's encouraging manufacturers to design better machines from tools, nozzles, hoses, air paths, motors etc...to give better performance using a lower watt motor. Something I think has been lacking in the UK market for a while!
I'll admit I like these new restrictions on motor wattage for vacuum cleaners, less is more as they say!! If a lower watt vacuum can clean and perform just as good as a higher watt vacuum then there no need for the higher watts ones surely!? Plus it's encouraging manufacturers to design better machines from tools, nozzles, hoses, air paths, motors etc...to give better performance using a lower watt motor. Something I think has been lacking in the UK market for a while!
madaboutsebo
Well-known member
Thanks....it's understandable to be sceptical! I think you will be pleasantly surprised with an Eco vacuum! You'll have to let us all know what you think.
Apart from when I owned Dyson vacuums all others I've owned or used have had variable power control and never really had the need to use full power all the time. I might if used it to try it out but never purposely use full power no need too. Having said that none of them are over 1300 watts apart from my S7 Miele but I don't use it anymore. My Vorwerk doesn't use full power for most of the jobs it's used for and it only has a 900 watt motor. The only time it's on full power is for the vac and mop head which is required! Good design is key I think!
Apart from when I owned Dyson vacuums all others I've owned or used have had variable power control and never really had the need to use full power all the time. I might if used it to try it out but never purposely use full power no need too. Having said that none of them are over 1300 watts apart from my S7 Miele but I don't use it anymore. My Vorwerk doesn't use full power for most of the jobs it's used for and it only has a 900 watt motor. The only time it's on full power is for the vac and mop head which is required! Good design is key I think!
One thing that I have been wondering.
Why manufacturers don't use the twin fan motors anymore? My old canisters use 1000w twin fan motors. rpm is slower in those, but I can guarantee that those has at least 200-250 aw suction. And noise is much softer and ear pleasing than the most modern vacuums, because of the lower rpm. Especially my AEG Vampyr 402 from the early 90's has very good suction + low noise level.
Why manufacturers don't use the twin fan motors anymore? My old canisters use 1000w twin fan motors. rpm is slower in those, but I can guarantee that those has at least 200-250 aw suction. And noise is much softer and ear pleasing than the most modern vacuums, because of the lower rpm. Especially my AEG Vampyr 402 from the early 90's has very good suction + low noise level.
madaboutsebo
Well-known member
Good point raised, forgot about twin fan motors. I believe some Electrolux of past used twin fan motors. They worked very well and like you say less noise too. Most be a reason why they don't. Mind you some are moving to brushless motors which spin faster, don't they use less power not sure! But you still get noise of the airflow around the motor! How about a brushless twin fan motor spinning slower!
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Twin motors arent fitted anymore because Id imagine they add weight as well as one more thing to go wrong. This is one reason to why SEBO did that Evolution upright with one motor as opposed to two. Even in the commercial cleaning world, its better to have one motor go down if it does happen than two.
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
The biggest advantage of two motors from the point of veiw of a commercial user was that if the cleaner failed due to brush roll problems, a new head could be fitted so as to carry on using the cleaner. That's the theory.
In practise, I don't think it was taken advantage of as much as it could have been.
In practise, I don't think it was taken advantage of as much as it could have been.
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