New EU vacuums and half the suction
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sebo_fan
Well-known member
And I'll reiterate - more spin from two fans means one may well likely to go down whilst the other soldiers on. Or it could just be cost of having two fans on one motor these days.
Yes
My assumption: Manufacturers have made the decision that it's cheaper to do the single fan motor and just make motor to spin faster to remain the same suction. That's why we have nowadays a lot of those noisy high pitched sounding vacuums.
Twin fan motor is much more complicated to produce than single fan = cost saving.
My assumption: Manufacturers have made the decision that it's cheaper to do the single fan motor and just make motor to spin faster to remain the same suction. That's why we have nowadays a lot of those noisy high pitched sounding vacuums.
Twin fan motor is much more complicated to produce than single fan = cost saving.
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
Single fans
Motors are funny things, because many of the clean-fan uprights in the UK (though by no means all) had only one moving fan and one static set of vanes, and these were never high wattage motors, nor were they noisy, so I guess it proves that it's possible to make a satisfactory motor with one fan, but as you say, it's probably a costly process.
Another cleaner with only one fan was the Philips cylinder. They used the same motor (albeit with different wattages) for years and years and years in all different models, and this only a single-fan motor. Despite this, the cleaners were powerful, very quiet, and cheap to buy when compared to others.
What I find interesting about anything that is built to keep costs down is that it doesn't always tie-in with what needs to happen. What do I mean by that? Well, prices of appliances in the UK have declined steadily over the years, largely due to the knock-on effect of mass consumerism and mass production, whereby a product becomes more desirable so more people purchase it, and this in turn brings prices down as manufacturers mass produce it and save money, and on it goes.
But into this we had imported goods which often sold for less than anything made in the UK, so that brought prices down and pushed competition up. But it was certainly a steady change. However, since the late 1990's when recommended retail pricing from manufacturers was outlawed, and with the internet coming to fruition, prices have plummeted. Did consumers demand this? I am not sure.
Cheap can be very dear. The only time anyone wins now is when they hand over money for a new appliance. Everything else is a loss. Practically everything seems to be made in the Far East now, nothing is repaired any more, so many local shops for all types of appliances have closed, major retailers like Comet have gone bust, and appliances of all shapes and sizes are bought with the knowledge that they won't last very long at all. For the price, they are still good value in by opinion, but that doesn't solve the problems of course.
Motors are funny things, because many of the clean-fan uprights in the UK (though by no means all) had only one moving fan and one static set of vanes, and these were never high wattage motors, nor were they noisy, so I guess it proves that it's possible to make a satisfactory motor with one fan, but as you say, it's probably a costly process.
Another cleaner with only one fan was the Philips cylinder. They used the same motor (albeit with different wattages) for years and years and years in all different models, and this only a single-fan motor. Despite this, the cleaners were powerful, very quiet, and cheap to buy when compared to others.
What I find interesting about anything that is built to keep costs down is that it doesn't always tie-in with what needs to happen. What do I mean by that? Well, prices of appliances in the UK have declined steadily over the years, largely due to the knock-on effect of mass consumerism and mass production, whereby a product becomes more desirable so more people purchase it, and this in turn brings prices down as manufacturers mass produce it and save money, and on it goes.
But into this we had imported goods which often sold for less than anything made in the UK, so that brought prices down and pushed competition up. But it was certainly a steady change. However, since the late 1990's when recommended retail pricing from manufacturers was outlawed, and with the internet coming to fruition, prices have plummeted. Did consumers demand this? I am not sure.
Cheap can be very dear. The only time anyone wins now is when they hand over money for a new appliance. Everything else is a loss. Practically everything seems to be made in the Far East now, nothing is repaired any more, so many local shops for all types of appliances have closed, major retailers like Comet have gone bust, and appliances of all shapes and sizes are bought with the knowledge that they won't last very long at all. For the price, they are still good value in by opinion, but that doesn't solve the problems of course.
Philips vacuum cleaners
About the Philips vacuum cleaners you mentioned.
I used to be very sceptical about Philips until I bought the very first Philips vacuum cleaner. It was one of the latest high wattage vacuums (2200W) that was still in the store for sale.
Price was very low, only 99€. Model PerformerPro FC9193/01. Normal price for these were around 229-299€.
I was blown away how good it was. Extremely powerful, sealed Hepa13 filtration, high quality S-bags and quiet soft sounding and more. Only complain what I had was the thick hose. It has been my parents vacuum for long time now. They really like it.
And yes it has single fan motor in weird position fan facing up.
So yes it is possible to do powerfull (500aw) and quiet single fan vacuum, but this Philips was top range model.
http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu_c9RX6_WA
About the Philips vacuum cleaners you mentioned.
I used to be very sceptical about Philips until I bought the very first Philips vacuum cleaner. It was one of the latest high wattage vacuums (2200W) that was still in the store for sale.
Price was very low, only 99€. Model PerformerPro FC9193/01. Normal price for these were around 229-299€.
I was blown away how good it was. Extremely powerful, sealed Hepa13 filtration, high quality S-bags and quiet soft sounding and more. Only complain what I had was the thick hose. It has been my parents vacuum for long time now. They really like it.
And yes it has single fan motor in weird position fan facing up.
So yes it is possible to do powerfull (500aw) and quiet single fan vacuum, but this Philips was top range model.
http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu_c9RX6_WA
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
Philips cleaners disappeared from the UK about 1996. Since then the odd one has cropped up here and there over the years, but never a full range like it used to be. I've no idea why. Although some of their models were higher than this, 1000 watts was were the numbers seemed to stabilise when it came to wattage.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
I dont know why Philips have left the UK either. They certainly appear to sell vacuums in other European countries. I like their SDA ranges in general; we used to have a twin motor Philips mixer in the 1980s when my mum sold off her Kenwood Chef; the Philips went for years until one of the gears broke.
Amazon UK sometimes lists the odd vacuum cleaner model if you're lucky but then there's the question of bag availability if buying bagged.
Amazon UK sometimes lists the odd vacuum cleaner model if you're lucky but then there's the question of bag availability if buying bagged.
Philips PerformerExpert is the current top range model. Motor is only 650W and measured suction 196AW. However EU energy label shows excellent results.
So 650W may sound ridiculously low, but if it performs well does it matter?
Consumer reports test and top 3 vacuums:
Electrolux ZUOQUATTRO UltraOne 785W
Philips PerformerExpert FC8721 / 09 650W
Miele Complete C3 Celebration EcoLine Plus 800W
I think these "low power" vacuum cleaners will keep our houses very clean despite some bias.
So 650W may sound ridiculously low, but if it performs well does it matter?
Consumer reports test and top 3 vacuums:
Electrolux ZUOQUATTRO UltraOne 785W
Philips PerformerExpert FC8721 / 09 650W
Miele Complete C3 Celebration EcoLine Plus 800W
I think these "low power" vacuum cleaners will keep our houses very clean despite some bias.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Respectively though Mike, I think you’ve fallen for the charms of the EU label and you won’t be the first. Plenty of buyers will be fooled into thinking that the higher the rating the better it will be. I speak from experience here as the label that came with my Hoover Idol stick vacuum states A for carpet performance and A for hard floor performance - yet the tools it comes with make no sense at all and in reality are worse than a standard combi floor tool.
Also as has been discussed before air watts decrease unless the suction is 100% in place all of the time. So whilst you may well start off with 785 air watts by the time a full cleaning is done within a week of a new bag being placed in the vacuum, that figure will have decreased by some extent.
The energy labels aren't always truthful as they are tested by the manufacturer, not an independent company.
Also as has been discussed before air watts decrease unless the suction is 100% in place all of the time. So whilst you may well start off with 785 air watts by the time a full cleaning is done within a week of a new bag being placed in the vacuum, that figure will have decreased by some extent.
The energy labels aren't always truthful as they are tested by the manufacturer, not an independent company.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Yet again though, its like car performance data, or even data on other services - those are datas collected by a company who has set up testing with specific criteria.
A household owner isn’t going to be testing carpet performance using how many grams of sand versus actual dirt or pet hair and even at that they won’t be measuring the amount of pet hair that their home has.
Even if a HEPA filter on board gives a high count of “purity of exhaust air,” long term the stink caused in the hose isn’t going to be saved by the HEPA filter. Get what I mean by these results?
Whilst it offers some value for some buyers, I don’t think it is particularly trustworthy to rely on these data tables or indeed “independent” testing. It can be independent yes but unless the criteria is established and known there is no real way of finding how much a vacuum cleaner performs without actual ownership.
Also per country, brands like Miele offer different models with slightly different spec.
Then there’s floor tools - if they all use eco led Wessel Werk then there should be no vast difference of pick up if both brand’s models have the same motor rating.
What the criteria should be listing is measurement of the hose length. Too many brands are now fitting shorter hoses which compromises cleaning for the owner. A clear example of this is Hoover Europe. Perhaps to compensate for lack of pull, shorter hoses would minimise suction air so that more is concentrated at the head.
A household owner isn’t going to be testing carpet performance using how many grams of sand versus actual dirt or pet hair and even at that they won’t be measuring the amount of pet hair that their home has.
Even if a HEPA filter on board gives a high count of “purity of exhaust air,” long term the stink caused in the hose isn’t going to be saved by the HEPA filter. Get what I mean by these results?
Whilst it offers some value for some buyers, I don’t think it is particularly trustworthy to rely on these data tables or indeed “independent” testing. It can be independent yes but unless the criteria is established and known there is no real way of finding how much a vacuum cleaner performs without actual ownership.
Also per country, brands like Miele offer different models with slightly different spec.
Then there’s floor tools - if they all use eco led Wessel Werk then there should be no vast difference of pick up if both brand’s models have the same motor rating.
What the criteria should be listing is measurement of the hose length. Too many brands are now fitting shorter hoses which compromises cleaning for the owner. A clear example of this is Hoover Europe. Perhaps to compensate for lack of pull, shorter hoses would minimise suction air so that more is concentrated at the head.
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
Page 21 of 28 you may read what Sebo say
http://flickread.com/edition/html/index.php?pdf=568a44daca4e8#21
http://flickread.com/edition/html/index.php?pdf=568a44daca4e8#21
Laboratory vs Home
I totally understand what you mean.
I give you one example. When Dyson is testing their latest "doesn't clog" multi cyclonic vacuums it doesn't count what happens in home.
Hose end can be blocked what means collapse in airflow = disturbed airflow in cyclones. Also too full bin and so on. That's why youtube has tons of videos how to open clogged cyclone assembly.
Consumer Reports gives a rough guide. Example how a certain vacuums do very poorly on the pet hair due to the poor nozzle design.
I totally understand what you mean.
I give you one example. When Dyson is testing their latest "doesn't clog" multi cyclonic vacuums it doesn't count what happens in home.
Hose end can be blocked what means collapse in airflow = disturbed airflow in cyclones. Also too full bin and so on. That's why youtube has tons of videos how to open clogged cyclone assembly.
Consumer Reports gives a rough guide. Example how a certain vacuums do very poorly on the pet hair due to the poor nozzle design.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Sebo have also printed that info on their UK site but a few of the UK members have already been saying this all along.
Now that's a good article!
One thing what immediately struck my eye. It was about too sealed nozzles/soleplates. It causes nozzle to glue to the surface, hard to move and pushing dirt instead of picking it up. These kind of vacuums are pain to use.
This is what people complain A LOT in the Internet.
Even the Consumer Reports complained about this issue saying:
"Most of the vacuums suck up the dust from the carpet efficiently, but vacuuming was too hard work: for example, the nozzle does not slide smoothly. Several top-ranked vacuums got only poor or acceptable ease of use points when vacuuming the carpets"
One thing what immediately struck my eye. It was about too sealed nozzles/soleplates. It causes nozzle to glue to the surface, hard to move and pushing dirt instead of picking it up. These kind of vacuums are pain to use.
This is what people complain A LOT in the Internet.
Even the Consumer Reports complained about this issue saying:
"Most of the vacuums suck up the dust from the carpet efficiently, but vacuuming was too hard work: for example, the nozzle does not slide smoothly. Several top-ranked vacuums got only poor or acceptable ease of use points when vacuuming the carpets"
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Yes but that is different - if owners are failing to realise that the combi suction floor tool has to have the pedals to push down the stiff bristles on a hard floor or even a wall, they're going to get a hard to push result as the floor tool is in carpet mode by default.
The eco floor heads I've experienced are awful for each EU test data; hard floor tool with a rubber squeegee that rolls on hard floors but picks up little to a carpet nozzle with a thin opening channel strip made up of double rubber squeegees that still makes it difficult to glide.
The combi suction floor head eliminates that even if owners have to change the floor setting. Only combi suction floor tool that I have found to be different is that of the Sebo Deluxe Kombi double jointed floor head. It is now sold as simply SEBO Kombi floor head -and I find at times it can clean a hard floor without adjusting the brushes to emerge.
The eco floor heads I've experienced are awful for each EU test data; hard floor tool with a rubber squeegee that rolls on hard floors but picks up little to a carpet nozzle with a thin opening channel strip made up of double rubber squeegees that still makes it difficult to glide.
The combi suction floor head eliminates that even if owners have to change the floor setting. Only combi suction floor tool that I have found to be different is that of the Sebo Deluxe Kombi double jointed floor head. It is now sold as simply SEBO Kombi floor head -and I find at times it can clean a hard floor without adjusting the brushes to emerge.
turbo500
Well-known member
Well there you have it Mike et al. What more proof do you need that a 700w motor can still pull in sufficient sucking power? As you can plainly see in that video, the suction is still strong and still plenty to clean a floor with.
Yes I totally believe it. This whole topic just went to the wrong direction. My point in the first post was just to show that the suction isn't the same anymore (many people has claimed so).
But it definitely is more than enough when the vacuum is designed well. And it certainly is enough to clean well.
Here is a video that shows how almost 30 old vacuum cleaner with the 1000W motor can produce great suction and pick up well.
If it can then modern low wattage vacuums shouldn't have any trouble at all.
But it definitely is more than enough when the vacuum is designed well. And it certainly is enough to clean well.
Here is a video that shows how almost 30 old vacuum cleaner with the 1000W motor can produce great suction and pick up well.
If it can then modern low wattage vacuums shouldn't have any trouble at all.
turbo500
Well-known member
Well it's like I said, whilst there may be a loss in actual suction, the performance hasn't dropped.
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