The Kirby Challenge...

[tristar]

Umm.......no......

I never actually "tore Brandon a new one". If you had ANY idea of what went on behind the scenes with that kid, you would have a COMPLETELY different attitude towards him. I know of no less than 4 other collectors he harrassed as well who also blocked his emails, IM's, etc. Unless you know the subject you refer to, it's best not to delve into it.

I am not the "King" of vacuumland. I perfer FACT, not heresay. If you make a statement that's just "heresay" or "rumour", then yes I will call you out on it. Anyone who prefers fact and truthful information will probably do the same thing. I don't really care if you agree or disagree with my tests, or anything else I do, just don't go around flagrantly bashing people because you don't like the topic being discussed.

I too will cease. Just stop with the whole finger-pointing and rumor spreading because you don't like the topic in the thread. Nobody made you read it anyway.

Have you ever put a metal fan into a Generation Kirby? Probably not. Ever replaced a Metal fan in an older Kirby with a plastic or Lexan fan? Again...probably not. If you had, and you'd bothered to do any sort of use yourself, you'd completely and totally understand where the claims of the metal fan being stronger come from. Check Youtube, there's a couple of people with G3's and G4's who have also done it. Ironically, their assessment agrees with mine.

All that *I* am asking is that YOU back up YOUR claims with FACT.

***I'm off my soapbox now...***

 

[hoover_elite_20]

My two cents

Just from my experience I have found that Kirbys have lots of suction but not the agitation. I have compared many different Kirbys from the Sanitronic VII and classic through the Heritage II and G3 and G6. They clean very well but all have sort of poor brushrolls. They seem to just have lots of soft, fluffy bristles. The Kirbys would do better if they put a nice brushroll in them like the royal uprights, with brush stiffeners, and then they would beat a sanitaire. I once compared my Heritage II against my old and now sadly gone Eureka ESP with a VGII I put in it and it beat the kirby by far, because of the vibration. I'm not one of those "lowly Eureka/Sanitaire guys", and that is why. As a matter of fact, they top the Kirbys on my list.

Also on the matter of the fans, I can understand how one could think the G3 would be at a disadvantage, but really it isn't. Some people think just because there are 11 blades instead of 10 and when they turn on the vacuum the plastic fan makes the vacuum sound at a higher pitch that its working better, but no. The metal fan takes a bigger bite out of the air and has much larger blades with more surface area at a different pitch(pitch in this sentence meaning angle like airplane propeller pitch,though the metal fan does have a different sound), and thus moves more air. Also, the lower pitch(sound) of the motor means more load, and more load = more work, and more work = more air being moved, and load being the air, not the belt. When I put a plastic fan in my Classic I immediately found a degrade of performance. I still wish I could find another metal fan. *sigh*

 

[crevicetool]

One time I loaned out my Electrolux Olympia one...

What the heck does this have to do with anything????? I'm a gettin' to it. I have an Electrolux Olympia one that I found in the garbage in 1988. When it comes to that machine, I could be charged with vacuum abuse. - Anyway - I loaned it to someone who was moving, had a (whatever)$40.00 machine, and needed to do some above the floor cleaning. While it was loaned out, and since I don't use any of my restored machines for actual work, I have to say, the house didn't get vacuumed for about two weeks. Yuck! I know!

Then I came back from North Canton. Not the convention. A mini-meet the year prior. While there, I was given a Hoover Convertible. I'm not a Hoover expert AT ALL so, I can only say that it is medium blue, has a vinyl button-snap outer bag, no headlight, and a disappointingly short cord.

Will you please get to a point here?....

The Convertible needed to be cleaned up, and the Lux having been returned, I spent an evening doing a quick tune-up of the convertible. I used the Lux to help clean it. I put a new "C" bag in it, and went to try it out. I could not believe the crap that that Hoover got out of the carpet!!! I was so ashamed of the Lux. Then it occurred to me that I hadn't vacuumed in two weeks, wiped the sweat from my brow, and quickly did the three-square foot test that they taught us when I sold Electrolux. I vacuumed the test area very slowly like you did Eric, with the Hoover. Then I put fresh electrical tape on the Lux aftermarket hose and covered the same area. With a brand-new Arm and Hammer bag in the Lux, It did manage to pull still more dirt out. I was relieved - Whew!

That feeling didn't last long though. I then went and got the oldest, weakest machine I had at the time - my Lux model XII, with the (crude at best) rug tool. I have two NIB cloth bags for my Lux XXX, One Lux issued, one aftermarket. I put the orange aftermarket bag in the XII, clicked in a non-leaking "L" hose, and guess what? While very, very, little the XII managed to pull still more dirt.

Has anyone ever put their ear on the hose end/handle and then vacuumed? You can hear grit, (what I was taught to be the real carpet eater) hit the hose end. Admittedly, one looks pretty ridiculous vacuuming with an ear stuck to the hose, but you CAN hear the sand/grit. Try it. I did that with the XII, and heard grit.

So, now what? Three distinctly different machine types, covering the center portion of the last century from the mid-1930's then the late sixties, and finally, the eighties. All pulled some amount of dirt after the other. Starting with the most powerful to the weakest. Beater bar, brush only PN4, then a hunk of metal with a slot cut in the bottom of it.

Eric, the cut-open bag from the Sanitaire is that a piece of Easter basket grass? I hate that stuff! It's as bad as tinsel at Christmas time.

Long-winded I know. Just wanted to share my experience. Perhaps no one's machine is any better or worse than anyone Else's. Perhaps it's a matter of preference. What works best for the situation, the user, etc.

Rick

 

[aeoliandave]

Matter is neither created nor destroyed..it is converted.

As soon as I'm finished the housework I have to start all over again - the Housewive's Lament. Or Househusband, if you prefer...Houseperson has no snappy ring to it at all.

If one's preferred vacuum cleaner cleans up debris as effectively as we can determine, then why, oh why do we vacuum every week if not every - or several times a - day? Because we know at an instinctive level that the job is never done...and we like to play with vacuums. You know...FUN!

Thank you Rick, for stepping back and reminding us all that this is a dirty world. This and similar fascinating and amusing but ultimately inconclusive discussions - they are discussion, right? Not debates? - simply and effectively points out that we, as collectors and enthusiasts, will never run out of the raw material for which our machines were conceived, built and developed...to manage, contain and disperse the changing decade's industrial and domestic substances, and can happily continue to vacuum as often or as infrequently as we desire. We'll always get some result.

Have 2 vacuums or 500, whichever suits your purpose and passion. Collect the full lineup of one Brandname or strive to run the gamut and cover the feild. Prefer new plastic over vintage metal? Fine by me. All will do the task they were cleverly designed for to the very best of their ability. Save the Whales...collect the whole set!

But as surely as hair grows 1/4" per month, the sun rises and sets and our buildings, cars and ourselves steadily convert to dustmotes every nanosecond that ticks by, the last vacuum cleaner running will always be the winner. That's a sure bet.

...Until someone turns on the next vacuum cleaner waiting in line to fight the War on Filth.

Dave

 

[tristar]

Rick and Dave speak a lot of truth in their posts. I'm glad the thread got back into a discussion! I agree with what Dave said though that every machine will do the best job they can according to their design. Some just work better than others.

Half the fun is trying them out to see what works best for you right? I mean that is why we collect so many different makes and models right? Hopefully I'm not alone in that assumption...

The original purpose of this thread was designed to be an experiment. You always see the Kirby demonstration where the Kirby goes last and pulls up a massive amount of filth, grit, sand, and lint. That's over a small area of the rug too, not the entire house. The results of my testing was done over the entire house! I honestly expected more from the Kirby. Hence my shock and disbelief.

My original point was that this is one of those examples where the last vacuum to go didn't necessarily come out on top. On Saturday, I'll reverse the experiment and make the Sanitaire go last. If the theory goes properly, the Sanitaire shouldn't pick up anymore than the Kirby did right? I, for one, am interested to see if my hypothesis holds true.

 

[tolivac]

WOW-Guess i will have to dig my Sanitaires out and try some more.
On the fan issue I asked a former Kirby dist servicecenter out here about that question of the metal fans in the newer Kirby "G" series machines and his concern was that the larger metal fan blades could overload the motor esp in the hose mode when the motor runs at a higher speed.Yes the metal blades are larger for use with the older Kirby motors that ran slower.Does sound like an interesting experiment though-will have to see if I can find some metal fans.I too prefer them-they do last longer.However I don't think I would want to use the metal fan in the later "G" machines-G6 and later.these have the domed Mini Emptor bag boot as opposed to the flat domed one on the G3,G4,G5 machines.The domed one does allow for more air movement-and the NASA designed tapered blade fan.the test I did with the Sanitare was with the G6-there is a difference.
and when I do my vacuum tests-I too use the machine to do the whole house .

 

[tristar]

Metal Fans...

I've heard issues people have had with metal fans in the newer Kirbys (G5 and later) due to the fan rubbing the back of the fan chamber. I'm assuming something changed in the design between the G4 and G5 when they introduced the Kevlar fan!

While the blades are larger on the metal fans, and the motor DOES run slower with the metal fan installed vs. the plastic fan, I haven't seen any evidence of the motor being overloaded in either mode. That was a concern of mine at first too! When plugged into a wattmeter, the machine doesn't pull any excessive current beyond what it is rated. When running, it does pull about 20-30w more than it does with the plastic fan, but still safely below the rating plate.

 

[ohio_tuec]

Eric,

For us Kirby buffs, this is a tough pill to swallow. But if what you say is true (and I can neither confirm or deny this) could you do a waterlift test of a Kirby Generation 3 with a Kevlar fan vs. one with a metal fan? That way, we could all see just how much using a metal fan improves the performance of the machine.

 

[tristar]

I can do that...

I have the Kevlar fan at the house for it. I'll stick it in there and do a comparison. I don't know that the water lift will change much, but the airflow is a TREMENDOUS difference. It's one of those things you have to witness yourself to understand.

I have the gauge and the tools to do the comparison. I'll do it this evening.

Keep in mind......the Kirbys don't have much water lift. They're all about airflow....and lots of it.

 

[ohio_tuec]

If you could, that would be super. I would think if there's a change in airflow, there's gotta be one in water lift as well. I have the Baird Air Flow meter for Kirby, but it already pulls a 10 with the Kevlar fan. And this way, we can all see what a difference a metal impeller makes.

 

[animasinsulin]

Royal fan?

Hey, Eric. What would happen if you could fit our Royal Everlast fans on a Kirby?....Bill in Az....

 

[tristar]

A Royal fan won't fit a Kirby. They have a different shaft size, thread, and depth of the blades. It simply won't fit the fan chamber!

 

[animasinsulin]

My G4

When I bought my G4 at a Goodwill, in the emptor thing was bent screws, a mangled dime, shared glass. How can a lexan fan do that kind of damage? I checked the fan and it still looks new.....Bill in Az....

 

[vacuumfreeeke]

I am glad you are going to do a retest. I also thought upon first reading this that the original test could in no way be called fair since the Sanitaire had been used more than the Kirby. Both fine looking machines, though.

 

[tristar]

Retest...

I'm not doing a retest. I'm doing a continuation of the test, but in reverse.

If anything, using the Sanitaire more gave the Kirby an advantage since the F&G bags clog a LOT quicker than the Kirby bags do.

The pictures weren't designed to illustrate that the Sanitaire picked up more. It was designed to show how much filth was actually picked up in 3 days and how little was actually left behind.

This seems to be a hard concept for a lot of people to follow. This isn't that complicated.

If you have a problem with the test, do one yourself! Document it. Just be FAIR about it. Repeat the same circumstances and don't purposely mangle one machine just because you don't like it or WANT it to lose.

 

[tristar]

Water Lift Results...

So here's the results of the Kirby Generation 3 with the Metal fan vs. the Kevlar fan:

Kevlar Fan: 24" of water

Metal fan: 36" of water

The lift reading of the Kevlar fan Kirby was confirmed by another friend of mine who has the same machine and a vacuum gauge.

Result: The Metal fan DOES increase suction. 12" of water is nothing to scoff at for a dirt-fan machine.

Below is a picture of the vacuum gauge with the metal fan in the Kirby.

 

[tolivac]

That is interesting about your G3 and the metal fan-sure shows the diffrence as read on your meter.Guess we can put to rest about overloading the motor as the Kirby dist showed when i asked him about the metal vs lexan fan several years ago.You do get about 50% increase.Nothing to scoff at.Kirby should go back to the metal fans!And your wattmeter test shows the motor current draw is within tolerence.Sounds like a good improvement.Eureka is going to different bags for the Sanitaire uprights-they are phasing out the F&G bag system.They are going to Filtrete bags too.I beleive it was an S&P bag is what they use on new Saintaire machines.The outer bag has a rigid fill tube like the Royal "B" bag system and the Kirby bag system.

 

[tolivac]

The new Eureka bag system is "ST".Wonder if the newer ST outer bags can be used on older Eurika machines.Would be interesting to try.

 

[vac-o-matic]

Conversion Kit

My buddy Phillip (Kirbyvertibles) gave me a conversion kit for my birthday last year so I could use the filtrete bags on my mom's Eureka which is often my daily driver. It works great, and I believe it just pops into the original tube. It definitely made it quieter, as it has just the vinyl outside bag, but what a difference in filtration! I have a lab that sheds 24/7 and even with a spa day every six weeks, still manages to smell like a dog. I was using the pet Arm and Hammer F & G bags but they seemed to cut the airflow a little. The conversion kit and the Sanitaire ST bags have been a blessing! Thanks again Phillip!

 

[tristar]

One of these days I'll find the conversion kit for the F&G style machines so I can try out the ST bags. They seem like they'd probably work a bit better since they're actually the cloth bags. That's my biggest gripe about the F&G style is how FAST they clog up! Even the filteraire bags are a pain with clogging.

 

[ridgidvac]

Conversion kit for F & G bag system

I'm happy 4 the conversion kit b/c it's a pain 2 change the Eureka F & G bag, but with the new ST bag converter things WILL be easier when I need to change bags.

About which vac is the best carpet vac, it depends on type of dirt being vacuumed & style of carpet pile, etc.

 

[tolivac]

The gripes I have about the F&G bags is the awkward way they go onsometimes you tear the paper bag feed tube while putting it on the main bags tube.Also on some F&G bags the feed tube rips unexpectedly causing a mess in your cleaners main cloth bag.This happens when I use F&G bags in my Royals that use "A" bags.And if you are not careful in putting the band over the paper feed tube-the area there can leak.Sometimes the paper tube clogs.Glad to see the F&G system phased out-guess it was the earliest top fill disposable bag system.I have one of the conversion outer bags for a Kirby-got it in a box of Kirby parts from a former Kirby dealer.The retrofit system cuts down the performance of the Kirby greatly-would NOT reccomend it.Tried it on a Dual 80 Kirby.Disappointing results.Beleive the bag was made by DG or whatever they are-the outfit that makes most aftermarket bags.Don't know why the Kirby dealer had it-maybe it was on a customers machine.

 

[tristar]

I've never had any of the problems you describe with the F&G bags, however I did once have a stick launched through the filltube. THAT made a mess....

Compared to the Hoover Type-C setup, the F&G bag is a CAKEWALK to change! At least you're not trying to keep all the dirt and mess from going everywhere in the process!


BTW, I'm about to do the final vacuuming for this week to round off this test. Results should be in somewhat shortly.

 

[ohio_tuec]

Forgive me for not saying it sooner, but thank you Eric for doing the waterlift test. Clearly, a metal fan DOES make a dramatic difference. In regards to the bag setup, Eureka was ahead of Hoover by leaps and bounds. It's a wonder they kept the "Type C" setup as long as they did. I use an F&G bag in my Hoover 61, which makes changing it so much more convenient.

 

[tolivac]

Heres how to deal with the Hoover "C" bags for replacing a full one-learned it from Bill at the Vacuum Cleaner Hospital out here-Turn the machine upside down and support the front of the floor nozzle on the workbench,counter or table top.open the zipper on the outer bag and take out the full C bag.Now-turn the machine back right side up and put on the new empty C bag-its quite easy once you try this.I can do this while holding the machine against the bench with my body and using my hands to change the bag.Try it and you will see-easier and no mess.

 

[tristar]

I had my own method for the Type C's. I would lay the handle down and pick up the front and shake all the crap towards the handle. Then remove the entire bag from the machine and hold it upside down and take it to the trash. No acrobatics required to hold the machine in position and it was a lot easier to reinstall the bag when done!

 

[tristar]

So here's the results...

So here are the long awaited results. God this house gets NASTY during a week!

Here is the Kirby bag. Keep in mind, this is the souped up Generation 3 with the metal fan. I've used it 3 times this week on the same days that I vacuumed with the Sanitaire last week. Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Here's the mess it got. Notice the hair? Sophie's started throwing her coat for summer...

 

[tristar]

Now for the Sanitaire's bag...

Remember.......this is the SAME test run in reverse from last week. If everyone's claims were right, the Kirby and the Sanitaire should have about the same amount of crud in their bags in the "they went last" run right?

For perfect clarification.......

This week the Sanitaire went last only on the very last day. The Kirby has been used 3x this week ONLY. New bags were in both in the beginning.

Last week the Kirby went last on the very last day. The Sanitaire was used 3x last week ONLY. New bags were in both at the beginning.

So......here's what the Sanitaire got up chasing the Kirby....

 

[tristar]

Meh you say....

Scroll up and look at the Kirby bag from last week's run for a very good comparison as to what I'm talking about here. The Sanitaire pulled a massive amount of dirt from this carpet! FAR more than the Kirby ever dreamed of last week! There's fur, dirt, dust, and a LOT of grit.... See below for a better picture of how much grit we're talking about. That's at least twice (if not more) than the Kirby grabbed last week...

 

[tolivac]

Can we call the match between Kirby and Sanitiare a "Draw"looks like they both picked up about the same amount of stuff.Both of yours are good machines.Was an interesting test.