vaclab
Well-known member
A bit late, but I just wanted to basically confirm Blackheart's measurements. Obviously, this E2 runs quite a bit better (and uses more power) than his sample.
Rainbow E2 Platinum Airflow Losses
- Thread starter vaclab
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compactc9guy
Well-known member
so around 40 cfm from vacuum base to PN hum not bad i guess i never did a test like this on my vacuum then again there all vintage .
vacuumdevil
Well-known member
Measuring horsepower without measuring torque.
Why do not measure working water lift or air Watts?
For that matter water lift is important as well.
Why do not measure working water lift or air Watts?
For that matter water lift is important as well.
vaclab
Well-known member
Vacuumdevil, I was going to leave your comment alone but
Since you insist in perpetuating a flat out lie about water lift and airwatts, I'm just not going to stand for your shenanigans any longer.
For a proper technical explanation that is 100% mathematically correct, watch this video.
Airwatts is a useless spec and manufacturers know it. Without both the airflow and suction curves, that number is completely meaningless.
Suction only assists in maintaining airflow over a given distance. It cannot pick up airborn dirt. It is a pressure, not a volume and not a speed.
Airflow at the cleaning point (hose if above the floor cleaning) and nozzle (whether powered or not) is the only thing that matters. Airflow can pick up dirt contained in a volume of air and move it. Hence terms like cubic feet per minute.
Working water lift is a complete sham and it not used by anyone to measure anything except you. I've proven over and over and over again that high suctions means SQUAT!
Manufacturers and vacuum salesman of all sorts have been creating new useless specs since the beginning of time and Airwatts is one of the most egregious offenders to date.
Bill
Since you insist in perpetuating a flat out lie about water lift and airwatts, I'm just not going to stand for your shenanigans any longer.
For a proper technical explanation that is 100% mathematically correct, watch this video.
Airwatts is a useless spec and manufacturers know it. Without both the airflow and suction curves, that number is completely meaningless.
Suction only assists in maintaining airflow over a given distance. It cannot pick up airborn dirt. It is a pressure, not a volume and not a speed.
Airflow at the cleaning point (hose if above the floor cleaning) and nozzle (whether powered or not) is the only thing that matters. Airflow can pick up dirt contained in a volume of air and move it. Hence terms like cubic feet per minute.
Working water lift is a complete sham and it not used by anyone to measure anything except you. I've proven over and over and over again that high suctions means SQUAT!
Manufacturers and vacuum salesman of all sorts have been creating new useless specs since the beginning of time and Airwatts is one of the most egregious offenders to date.
Bill
mark40511
Well-known member
Cool
yea - that HEPA is toast.....glad you put a new one in and glad it blew zero. Thanks for giving us all those stats... I will never give up my Rainbow...
yea - that HEPA is toast.....glad you put a new one in and glad it blew zero. Thanks for giving us all those stats... I will never give up my Rainbow...
vacuumdevil
Well-known member
New balance man
@vaclab What you're saying is you refuse to measure a vacuum properly.
I understand there's been some debate about are watts and how to calculate it.
Working vacuum aka working water lift is the standard of testing Central Vacuums, after install.
Air wants is the standard of measuring the unit itself uninstalled .
What are lift is really important to know . You really can't have CFM without a decent amount of water lift .
The result will be ending up with something like an Oreck classic vacuum being more powerful than modern Vacuums.
I understand you get your rocks off measuring vacuum CFM. But it's pretty much misinformation without at least measuring the water lift .
I hope one day that you can understand this.
@vaclab What you're saying is you refuse to measure a vacuum properly.
I understand there's been some debate about are watts and how to calculate it.
Working vacuum aka working water lift is the standard of testing Central Vacuums, after install.
Air wants is the standard of measuring the unit itself uninstalled .
What are lift is really important to know . You really can't have CFM without a decent amount of water lift .
The result will be ending up with something like an Oreck classic vacuum being more powerful than modern Vacuums.
I understand you get your rocks off measuring vacuum CFM. But it's pretty much misinformation without at least measuring the water lift .
I hope one day that you can understand this.
vaclab
Well-known member
Once Again You're Completely Wrong
Alex,
One day you might understand the Physics and Mathematics behind how vacuum cleaners actually work, but today isn't that day. Your suction contraption is best used to test for leaks in any vacuum system not cleaning power. And since you are completely unable to refute my video and proper definitions of airflow, suction and Airwatts, my point is proven.
There is no debate on how to calculate Airwatts, never has been, but it is a useless spec that can never indicate cleaning power. Watch the video.
You can have massive suction without airflow and massive airflow without suction.
Suction without airflow = clogged vacuum, water pump, etc.
Airflow without suction = boxfan, hurricane, etc.
Most high suction, lower airflow machines can't deep clean, but high airflow, low suction machines can. Check out my airflow through the carpet tests, the most real world carpet tests for deep cleaning.
NOTICE that the very high nozzle suction, low airflow Dyson DC65 only manages 26 CFM and the low suction, high airflow Kirby more than doubles that figure to 57 CFM, hence true deep cleaning is possible on pile carpet.
As usual, you have ZERO evidence to prove your point, so your arguments hold no water.
Bill
Alex,
One day you might understand the Physics and Mathematics behind how vacuum cleaners actually work, but today isn't that day. Your suction contraption is best used to test for leaks in any vacuum system not cleaning power. And since you are completely unable to refute my video and proper definitions of airflow, suction and Airwatts, my point is proven.
There is no debate on how to calculate Airwatts, never has been, but it is a useless spec that can never indicate cleaning power. Watch the video.
You can have massive suction without airflow and massive airflow without suction.
Suction without airflow = clogged vacuum, water pump, etc.
Airflow without suction = boxfan, hurricane, etc.
Most high suction, lower airflow machines can't deep clean, but high airflow, low suction machines can. Check out my airflow through the carpet tests, the most real world carpet tests for deep cleaning.
NOTICE that the very high nozzle suction, low airflow Dyson DC65 only manages 26 CFM and the low suction, high airflow Kirby more than doubles that figure to 57 CFM, hence true deep cleaning is possible on pile carpet.
As usual, you have ZERO evidence to prove your point, so your arguments hold no water.
Bill
blackheart
Well-known member
Back to the rainbow
That's interesting. Makes me wonder if there is something wrong with mine. Granted it's a 5 CFM difference at the nozzle.
That's interesting. Makes me wonder if there is something wrong with mine. Granted it's a 5 CFM difference at the nozzle.
vaclab
Well-known member
Devin,
Did you happen to notice the power usage difference? Yours was 1013 Watts and mine (Thomas') tested at 1398 Watts both without the PN running. That's around a 38% difference, which is significant.
Bill
Did you happen to notice the power usage difference? Yours was 1013 Watts and mine (Thomas') tested at 1398 Watts both without the PN running. That's around a 38% difference, which is significant.
Bill
vacuumdevil
Well-known member
New Balance Man
@vaclab I have definitely demonstrated that I understand physics behind vacuum cleaners and other things I don't know why that came into question?
There are two separate formulas for air Watts.
I don't believe I need to submit any evidence that you refuse to test water lift . You said that yourself.
I also understand that you probably can't find/afford a working vacuum gauge.
You take yourself way too seriously.
Maybe one day we can have a phone/SKYPE conversation , I don't believe it's fair to the rest of vacuum and they keep having these heated discussions.
@vaclab I have definitely demonstrated that I understand physics behind vacuum cleaners and other things I don't know why that came into question?
There are two separate formulas for air Watts.
I don't believe I need to submit any evidence that you refuse to test water lift . You said that yourself.
I also understand that you probably can't find/afford a working vacuum gauge.
You take yourself way too seriously.
Maybe one day we can have a phone/SKYPE conversation , I don't believe it's fair to the rest of vacuum and they keep having these heated discussions.
compactc9guy
Well-known member
vaclab
would you consider a vintage compact c9 high air flow because mine certainly does have more AIR moving in the hose than my electrolux ap200 i find my Compact C9 has a nice balance between air flow and suction whit envirocare bag.
would you consider a vintage compact c9 high air flow because mine certainly does have more AIR moving in the hose than my electrolux ap200 i find my Compact C9 has a nice balance between air flow and suction whit envirocare bag.
kirbysthebest
Well-known member
Some do take themselves too seriously
Don't they Alex?
Like having to be the expert on everything.
Or having to be the expert on everything,
or
Having to be the expert on everything.
Then belittling the other posters, and being the injured party if they don't agree with you.
Why don't you post your results, where you do your testing with your expensive guages, and let us all see. Not on YouTube where you get paid, post them here where you don't even donate for the privilege of imparting your wisdom upon us.
Can't wait for your response. Like Barbara Walters says. "The a-hole always has the last word."
Don't they Alex?
Like having to be the expert on everything.
Or having to be the expert on everything,
or
Having to be the expert on everything.
Then belittling the other posters, and being the injured party if they don't agree with you.
Why don't you post your results, where you do your testing with your expensive guages, and let us all see. Not on YouTube where you get paid, post them here where you don't even donate for the privilege of imparting your wisdom upon us.
Can't wait for your response. Like Barbara Walters says. "The a-hole always has the last word."
vacuumdevil
Well-known member
@kirbysthebest
You are out of line !
Again .
Put your feelings in a email and then bake a bundt cake .
You are out of line !
Again .
Put your feelings in a email and then bake a bundt cake .
kirbysthebest
Well-known member
Minnie baked this just for you
Using a cup of her "secret" ingredient.
Why don't you have yourself two pieces.
Using a cup of her "secret" ingredient.
Why don't you have yourself two pieces.
vaclab
Well-known member
Once Again Alex, You Give Nothing But
Excuses. No evidence, no proof whatsoever.
@vaclab I have definitely demonstrated that I understand physics behind vacuum cleaners and other things I don't know why that came into question? <-- because you still don't understand the difference between airflow and suction.
There are two separate formulas for air Watts.
===========================================================
Really? What are the two formulas then? There is only one formula for Airwatts.
Airwatts = (vacuum suction [inches of water] × air flow [cubic feet per minute])/8.5
Sometimes people may re-arrange that to read:
Airwatts = vacuum suction [inches of water] × air flow [cubic feet per minute] x 0.1176
But those are the same formulas.
===========================================================
I don't believe I need to submit any evidence that you refuse to test water lift . You said that yourself. <-- Really? When did I ever say that?
I also understand that you probably can't find/afford a working vacuum gauge. <-- Can't afford a gauge that was made from a common hardware PVC fitting with a washer stuck in one end? What are you smoking out there in Colorado? These are easy and cheap to fabricate. BUT they only are good to test for leaks (suction loss), and nothing else as previously stated.
You take yourself way too seriously. <-- No, you do. I've always been serious about the perpetuation of truth in testing and advertising. I post tests that are scientifically sound (follow the scientific method) for all to see. I love exposing the fallacies and lies of manufacturers.
Maybe one day we can have a phone/SKYPE conversation , I don't believe it's fair to the rest of vacuum and they keep having these heated discussions. <-- If you wanted to contact me, send me an email as my address has been available to members since 2014. Guess you never looked.
I can also surmise you didn't watch/understand the videos, especially the Rainbow E2 one in which I specifically test airflow and SUCTION (at the canister and hose end).
Lastly, the title of this thread is airflow losses, not suction losses, so why post suction measurements? People can simply watch the video, obviously you chose not to.
Bill
Excuses. No evidence, no proof whatsoever.
@vaclab I have definitely demonstrated that I understand physics behind vacuum cleaners and other things I don't know why that came into question? <-- because you still don't understand the difference between airflow and suction.
There are two separate formulas for air Watts.
===========================================================
Really? What are the two formulas then? There is only one formula for Airwatts.
Airwatts = (vacuum suction [inches of water] × air flow [cubic feet per minute])/8.5
Sometimes people may re-arrange that to read:
Airwatts = vacuum suction [inches of water] × air flow [cubic feet per minute] x 0.1176
But those are the same formulas.
===========================================================
I don't believe I need to submit any evidence that you refuse to test water lift . You said that yourself. <-- Really? When did I ever say that?
I also understand that you probably can't find/afford a working vacuum gauge. <-- Can't afford a gauge that was made from a common hardware PVC fitting with a washer stuck in one end? What are you smoking out there in Colorado? These are easy and cheap to fabricate. BUT they only are good to test for leaks (suction loss), and nothing else as previously stated.
You take yourself way too seriously. <-- No, you do. I've always been serious about the perpetuation of truth in testing and advertising. I post tests that are scientifically sound (follow the scientific method) for all to see. I love exposing the fallacies and lies of manufacturers.
Maybe one day we can have a phone/SKYPE conversation , I don't believe it's fair to the rest of vacuum and they keep having these heated discussions. <-- If you wanted to contact me, send me an email as my address has been available to members since 2014. Guess you never looked.
I can also surmise you didn't watch/understand the videos, especially the Rainbow E2 one in which I specifically test airflow and SUCTION (at the canister and hose end).
Lastly, the title of this thread is airflow losses, not suction losses, so why post suction measurements? People can simply watch the video, obviously you chose not to.
Bill
vaclab
Well-known member
conpactc9guy
I've been looking for a Compact/Tristar machine for sometime, but they are very rare here (never seen one used in 4 years so far). Blackheart has tested an EXL and discovered it has 66 nozzle CFM and 97 hose CFM. I don't know what an AP200 can do.
Remember, suction cannot clean as it is only a pressure (force). In order to pick up small, dry particulate, you need a volume of air moving at a speed (CFM).
Bill
I've been looking for a Compact/Tristar machine for sometime, but they are very rare here (never seen one used in 4 years so far). Blackheart has tested an EXL and discovered it has 66 nozzle CFM and 97 hose CFM. I don't know what an AP200 can do.
Remember, suction cannot clean as it is only a pressure (force). In order to pick up small, dry particulate, you need a volume of air moving at a speed (CFM).
Bill
blackheart
Well-known member
Tristar
Oh that was a CXL one of the last IEC made models the EXL would have been the first of the Aerus made tristars. I've also tested an MG2, which was poor compared to it's predecessors
Oh that was a CXL one of the last IEC made models the EXL would have been the first of the Aerus made tristars. I've also tested an MG2, which was poor compared to it's predecessors
kirbymodel2c
Well-known member
Thanks Bill
I find your videos on youtube entertaining and informative to watch.
Keep up the good work.
James
I find your videos on youtube entertaining and informative to watch.
Keep up the good work.
James
compactc9guy
Well-known member
Blackheart (
Yes my Compact IEC c9 is quite the cleaning beast
Yes my Compact IEC c9 is quite the cleaning beast
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