Pick your poison: Main equivalency!

[Absolute Rainbow]

What's the effort? Compared to what? Your criticism makes no sense. It probably cost Kenmore ten cents to make that part and there are no fasteners or anything to install to put it in the bag chamber so assembly is not more expensive as a result. The Panasonic part adds no more complexity than the release levers found on the dust bins of countless bagless vacuums. Actually it is better because there is almost nothing to break on the expander cage. The plastic is thick, supple and not the least bit brittle or prone to breaking.

I meant the R&D needed to make the bags competitive, not just improve the basic design. Also, you didn't answer me about Suction Work Rate vs. Airwatts.

 

[cheesewonton]

I meant the R&D needed to make the bags competitive, not just improve the basic design. Also, you didn't answer me about Suction Work Rate vs. Airwatts.

Air Watts are an instantaneous measurement of both suction and airflow simultaneously at a given orifice size. It's a snapshot in time. Suction and airflow will be different for every orifice size with suction increasing and airflow decreasing as the size of the orifice is reduced.

Suction work rate measures the volume of air that flows through the opening of a hose over a period of time, multiplied by the sealed suction also measured at the end of the hose and that product is multiplied by a constant. Measuring the total volume of air over a period of time reduces the errors inherent in trying to capture an instantaneous airflow measurement so you don't have to try to normalize for the different speeds of air in a tube or pipe with turbulent airflow as you encounter measuring air watts.

The research to make bags competitive is spread out over the millions of applications, not just vacuum bags but other equipment that requires HEPA filtration. The US HEPA standard in fact comes from the nuclear industry and was developed as part of the Manhattan Project during WWII. The requirement for HEPA filters to capture 99.97% of particles 3 microns in size was driven by the need to capture certain nuclear particles that are 3 microns. The vacuum industry simply adopted an existing filter media technology to vacuums. The same tech is used in hundreds of other industrial applications. Now you are going to try to convince me it costs more to develop a vacuum bag than it costs to develop a cyclone and I will laugh out loud if you do.

 

[Absolute Rainbow]

Air Watts are an instantaneous measurement of both suction and airflow simultaneously at a given orifice size. It's a snapshot in time. Suction and airflow will be different for every orifice size with suction increasing and airflow decreasing as the size of the orifice is reduced.

Suction work rate measures the volume of air that flows through the opening of a hose over a period of time, multiplied by the sealed suction also measured at the end of the hose and that product is multiplied by a constant. Measuring the total volume of air over a period of time reduces the errors inherent in trying to capture an instantaneous airflow measurement so you don't have to try to normalize for the different speeds of air in a tube or pipe with turbulent airflow as you encounter measuring air watts.

Okay, and... I doubt these alone will direct measure cleaning performance on floors.

The research to make bags competitive is spread out over the millions of applications, not just vacuum bags but other equipment that requires HEPA filtration. The US HEPA standard in fact comes from the nuclear industry and was developed as part of the Manhattan Project during WWII. The requirement for HEPA filters to capture 99.97% of particles 3 microns in size was driven by the need to capture certain nuclear particles that are 3 microns. The vacuum industry simply adopted an existing filter media technology to vacuums. The same tech is used in hundreds of other industrial applications. Now you are going to try to convince me it costs more to develop a vacuum bag than it costs to develop a cyclone and I will laugh out loud if you do.

I only agree with you about the HEPA. Also it's 0.3 micron, not 3 microns.

I meant R&D effort, not cost.

 

[cheesewonton]

Okay, and... I doubt these alone will direct measure cleaning performance on floors.

I only agree with you about the HEPA. Also it's 0.3 micron, not 3 microns.

I meant R&D effort, not cost.

So there is zero R&D effort designing bagless vacuums? Maybe you don't want to answer that, lolololololol.

 

[Absolute Rainbow]

So there is zero R&D effort designing bagless vacuums? Maybe you don't want to answer that, lolololololol.

Oh my god. What a cheesy move from you.

Anyways, the point is that there's more R&D effort to make the bags competitive with the bagless stuffs, and the former still has running cost and still wasteful (bagless only empty contents, whereas you have to throw the entire bag of the bagged and replace with a new bag).

 

[cheesewonton]

Oh my god. What a cheesy move from you.

Anyways, the point is that there's more R&D effort to make the bags competitive with the bagless stuffs, and the former still has running cost and still wasteful (bagless only empty contents, whereas you have to throw the entire bag of the bagged and replace with a new bag).

I don't believe for a second that engineering a bagged vacuum is somehow more expensive and consumes more engineering talent than engineering a bagless vacuum. Document that claim or it's pure bovine excrement. Bagless machines require a steady drumbeat of new filters and the owner has to get their hands dirty cleaning the darn things. I'll gladly pay a buck or two a bag rather than have to dump that miserable dust bin out and wash filters and the bin. No thanks. And why can't any bagless machine be made with the kinds of quality materials and workmanship one finds with a Sebo, Lindhaus. Miracle Mate, Metrovac or Aerus vacuum? The bagless stuff is uniformly hard shiny miserable squeaky brittle plastic with plastic brush rolls that melt when they get hot. And don't say they don't melt because I have seen to many that did. Where is all this engineering talent when you can't even vacuum for an hour without melting the stupid brush roll? Kludge.

 

[madaboutsebo]

What makes me laugh is people say they prefer bagless as no running costs on buying bags and better for the environment. What do most do empty it into a plastic bin liner which correct me if I’m wrong goes into landfill.

I’ve owned and used both and still even though I do my bit and try to be environmentally conscious prefer a bagged machine. That doesn’t mean I don’t find bagless technology interesting and trying to use less waste like a bag or use less power to clean. I do think all manufacturers can do more!

Vorwerk with their new VK7 Kobold uses 80% recycled material in their bags for this machine. They are still certified independently by TUV in Germany. I believe from what I’ve read the 80% recycled material is from swimwear! I’m surprised no one has tried making bags from bamboo! From recent comments from them and social posts they are committed to bagged machines. Only time will tell!

From experience and observation my view on cyclones so called clogging or smelling is not always down to abuse as such! People grab and use the vacuum not looking in detail on the floor say hardfloors or carpet if there is spots of water. These get picked up by the machine with the dirt and it sticks to internals of the machine. It happens with bagged machines. The air paths can be cleaned in both types but if that moisture gets into the cyclones you can’t easily clean it. The bag you remove and replace. This will always happen as the general owner isn’t meticulous about checking surfaces before vacuuming. We don’t live in a perfect world as some seem to think we do!

What is also interesting if bagless is better why aren’t all commercial settings including Hospitals, care homes for example using them? I’ve my thoughts why!

 

[Hatsuwr]

The whole question of the environmental impact of bags is all a bit silly when you consider the context is people choosing to use battery powered vacuums in homes with outlets every eight feet. I'm not saying we should let the perfect get in the way of the good, but if environmental concerns were really a priority, corded is the obvious choice.

 

[madaboutsebo]

That’s also a concern I often question the environmental impact producing these batteries has and after they are done with.

 

[royalfan103]

That’s also a concern I often question the environmental impact producing these batteries has and after they are done with.

Aren’t there also ethical concerns regarding the mining of the materials and minerals needed to make these batteries (Cobalt, lithium, etc)?

 

[madaboutsebo]

I believe so and there are concerns as these materials and minerals that are mined for them are not in endless supplies!

 

[cheesewonton]

I believe so and there are concerns as these materials and minerals that are mined for them are not in endless supplies!

Scientists and engineers are developing ways to recycle electronic components and batteries to recover the valuable materials. I know the US military does this already when they take old weapons out of service for disposal. The electronics go someplace where the expensive materials are harvested for re-use.

 

[centralsweeper63]

If I can get parts for a reasonable cost I am alright with it. For a Dyson V10 replacing all the common wear parts (battery, filter, motor, brush roll and contacts in the wand is just over $400 (nzd). replacing the wear parts on an old Electrolux (hose, motor, floor tool and bag) costs less than $300 (nzd). Bear in mind these parts are failing on dyson's after 4-6 years. On electrolux's they are failing after 30-50 years. If someone has money to pay for parts and labour every few years and doesn't mind the other disadvantages of dyson's and shark's can go right ahead and buy one. I notice that Dyson is pushing seasonal colourscheme's with their haircare line. Their slogan is "gift the colourway of the season". It would appear they may be trying to push yearly replacements. I may be wrong though. This is a bit silly to me as their top of the line machines (v16, gen5, v15 and v12) cost between $1500-1750 (nzd).

I love the feeling of an Electrolux with the ze3 that just glides about. I also like things like the generation series kirby's and the legend 2 as well. This is a bit controversial though I really love using a techdrive Kirby because in a little New Zealand home I can just whizz around And do the vacuuming so quickly. I just love that the techdrive does the pushing for you. I think it is definitely a learning curve, like riding a bike almost. When you are new to it you don't want to do it and find it difficult, then once you have learned it properly you can't get enough. I turn kirby's almost like doing a three-point-turn. Backwards and forwards a couple times. To each to their own though, if a Kirby if not for you that is ok.

 

[Absolute Rainbow]

I would appreciate it if you severely limits the misinformation. Me and @Vacuum Facts would be proud of you if you do, unlike all those reckless reviewers out there...

 

[cheesewonton]

I would appreciate it if you severely limits the misinformation. Me and @Vacuum Facts would be proud of you if you do, unlike all those reckless reviewers out there...

He's telling the truth. But you have probably never used one of those wonderful Swedish made Electrolux cylinder vacs with their excellent Ze3 power nozzle. I have a few, different models ranging from 1980 through 2010 and just paid a thoroughly ridiculous tariff and brokerage fees to bring another one over from Japan. Among the finest and most durable vacuums ever produced but you would not know this unless you used them routinely to clean you home. They are supremely quiet and refined. You can have a normal conversation with someone while using one. A pleasure to use compared to the high pitched squeal and hard shiny squeaky plastic of all the modern bagless machines except Workhorse.

 

[Absolute Rainbow]

@Vacuum Facts I have a high confidence that you would pick the V16.

 

[cheesewonton]

Something tells me the Titan T8000 bagless canister vacuum would put anything from Diesoon back on the trailer. Let's see vacuum fiction test one.

 

[keldrin]

Kirby doesn't have a stick vacuum.... but Filter Queen does.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

Kirby doesn't have a stick vacuum.... but Filter Queen does.

That's a fair point actually. When you think about it though, it's not surprising, since Kirby hasn't really updated the technology in their product (not plural) significantly since it was first made, so it makes sense they'd be the last, if ever, to jump on the bandwagon.

Also good point out on the Filter Queen product, which I hadn't seen. It's a DC35 clone fully consistent with observations discussed in another thread.

 

[keldrin]

There have been a number of updates. The tradition having disposable bags was a major improvement over shakeout bags. The tech drive added with the G series. But updates from one model to the next tend to be minor. And they are over due for a new model. I do like and use them. From my experience they clean well. But I know they aren't for everyone.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

There have been a number of updates. The tradition having disposable bags was a major improvement over shakeout bags. The tech drive added with the G series. But updates from one model to the next tend to be minor. And they are over due for a new model. I do like and use them. From my experience they clean well. But I know they aren't for everyone.

I was referring to more radical technological upgrades, but yes, you are still right. TBH, most vacuum cleaners clean real-world mess levels well enough. Most of our focus (or at least mine) is on new core technologies that simplify things, relative performance difference between products, and what it takes to achieve that, mostly from a technological advancement point of view. That and myth busting—I don't like lies and deception when I see it. Despite that, I can appreciate how collectors value other things on various machines. I recognise you're a fan of Kirby machines—good for you.

 

[centralsweeper63]

There are many, many changes. Kirby makes a good, simple and reliable vacuum. Even if a Dyson lasts 10 yearsI will list some by generation.

Dual sanitronic 50: two speed switch.
Dual sanitronic: many changes, Kirby states there was 26. Main one being the new handle.
Classic: launched the "second generation" with new switch position, updated sani em-tor and a wider nozzle.
Classic omega: updated toe touch control.
Classic III: visual belt window, triple cushion vibration head, updated shag king, introduced the jigsaw.
Tradition: introduced disposable bags.
Heritage: new attachments, improved bag system.
Heritage 84: redesign for their 70th anniversary.
Heritage II: mini em-tor replaced sani-emtor, power indicator added, new toe-touch control, micro matic added.
Heritage II (1985): new nozzle, new attachment caddy, zipbrush added as an optional extra.
Heritage II (1986) : brush roll performance indicator added, extended warranty.
Heritage II legend: updated brush roll, updated bag system.
Legend II: ball bearing brush roll introduced
G3: over 60 changes made, most notably introduced techdrive.
G4: updated handle tilt latch, micron magic bags introduced.
G5: updated styling, pull out belt lifter handle, updated fan case gasket, updated fan.
G6: HEPA bags added.
G7: updated brushroll, updated fan, updated bag zipper.
G7 diamond: updated bag zipper, two speed switch.
Sentria: back saver handle, led headlights, higher nozzle bumper, updated upholstery tool.
Sentria 2: updated mini-emtor, f style bags introduced, updated zip brush.
Avalir: added handle, updated shampooer.
avalir platinum: noise reduction stuff.

As you can see there has been a lot of changes so when people go about complaining they are the same vacuum it really grinds my gears. I think I don't have anything wrong, but if I do please tell me.

 

[Absolute Rainbow]

That's a fair point actually. When you think about it though, it's not surprising, since Kirby hasn't really updated the technology in their product (not plural) significantly since it was first made, so it makes sense they'd be the last, if ever, to jump on the bandwagon.

Also good point out on the Filter Queen product, which I hadn't seen. It's a DC35 clone fully consistent with observations discussed in another thread.

There have been a number of updates. The tradition having disposable bags was a major improvement over shakeout bags. The tech drive added with the G series. But updates from one model to the next tend to be minor. And they are over due for a new model. I do like and use them. From my experience they clean well. But I know they aren't for everyone.

I was referring to more radical technological upgrades, but yes, you are still right. TBH, most vacuum cleaners clean real-world mess levels well enough. Most of our focus (or at least mine) is on new core technologies that simplify things, relative performance difference between products, and what it takes to achieve that, mostly from a technological advancement point of view. That and myth busting—I don't like lies and deception when I see it. Despite that, I can appreciate how collectors value other things on various machines. I recognise you're a fan of Kirby machines—good for you.

There are many, many changes. Kirby makes a good, simple and reliable vacuum. Even if a Dyson lasts 10 yearsI will list some by generation.

Dual sanitronic 50: two speed switch.
Dual sanitronic: many changes, Kirby states there was 26. Main one being the new handle.
Classic: launched the "second generation" with new switch position, updated sani em-tor and a wider nozzle.
Classic omega: updated toe touch control.
Classic III: visual belt window, triple cushion vibration head, updated shag king, introduced the jigsaw.
Tradition: introduced disposable bags.
Heritage: new attachments, improved bag system.
Heritage 84: redesign for their 70th anniversary.
Heritage II: mini em-tor replaced sani-emtor, power indicator added, new toe-touch control, micro matic added.
Heritage II (1985): new nozzle, new attachment caddy, zipbrush added as an optional extra.
Heritage II (1986) : brush roll performance indicator added, extended warranty.
Heritage II legend: updated brush roll, updated bag system.
Legend II: ball bearing brush roll introduced
G3: over 60 changes made, most notably introduced techdrive.
G4: updated handle tilt latch, micron magic bags introduced.
G5: updated styling, pull out belt lifter handle, updated fan case gasket, updated fan.
G6: HEPA bags added.
G7: updated brushroll, updated fan, updated bag zipper.
G7 diamond: updated bag zipper, two speed switch.
Sentria: back saver handle, led headlights, higher nozzle bumper, updated upholstery tool.
Sentria 2: updated mini-emtor, f style bags introduced, updated zip brush.
Avalir: added handle, updated shampooer.
avalir platinum: noise reduction stuff.

As you can see there has been a lot of changes so when people go about complaining they are the same vacuum it really grinds my gears. I think I don't have anything wrong, but if I do please tell me.

That's being said...

 

[centralsweeper63]

I'm sorry but I don't quite follow you.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

There are many, many changes. Kirby makes a good, simple and reliable vacuum. Even if a Dyson lasts 10 yearsI will list some by generation.

Dual sanitronic 50: two speed switch.
Dual sanitronic: many changes, Kirby states there was 26. Main one being the new handle.
Classic: launched the "second generation" with new switch position, updated sani em-tor and a wider nozzle.
Classic omega: updated toe touch control.
Classic III: visual belt window, triple cushion vibration head, updated shag king, introduced the jigsaw.
Tradition: introduced disposable bags.
Heritage: new attachments, improved bag system.
Heritage 84: redesign for their 70th anniversary.
Heritage II: mini em-tor replaced sani-emtor, power indicator added, new toe-touch control, micro matic added.
Heritage II (1985): new nozzle, new attachment caddy, zipbrush added as an optional extra.
Heritage II (1986) : brush roll performance indicator added, extended warranty.
Heritage II legend: updated brush roll, updated bag system.
Legend II: ball bearing brush roll introduced
G3: over 60 changes made, most notably introduced techdrive.
G4: updated handle tilt latch, micron magic bags introduced.
G5: updated styling, pull out belt lifter handle, updated fan case gasket, updated fan.
G6: HEPA bags added.
G7: updated brushroll, updated fan, updated bag zipper.
G7 diamond: updated bag zipper, two speed switch.
Sentria: back saver handle, led headlights, higher nozzle bumper, updated upholstery tool.
Sentria 2: updated mini-emtor, f style bags introduced, updated zip brush.
Avalir: added handle, updated shampooer.
avalir platinum: noise reduction stuff.

As you can see there has been a lot of changes so when people go about complaining they are the same vacuum it really grinds my gears. I think I don't have anything wrong, but if I do please tell me.

When your list is predominantly "improved handle" and "extended warranty", I think that makes my point and reveals you don't yet really understand what constitutes a fundamental technological upgrade. Unfortunately, I don't think you're my target audience and so I won't be responding to your comments anymore. Sorry.

 

[Hatsuwr]

There are many, many changes. Kirby makes a good, simple and reliable vacuum. Even if a Dyson lasts 10 yearsI will list some by generation.

.......

As you can see there has been a lot of changes so when people go about complaining they are the same vacuum it really grinds my gears. I think I don't have anything wrong, but if I do please tell me.

Thanks for putting that all together. Kirby definitely isn't at the cutting edge, but the claim that their underlying technology hasn't been significantly upgraded since the original betrays a deep ignorance of the topic.