Not worth it: Riccar/Simplicity tandem air uprights

[mike811]

Okay so this is a bit rant.
I have seen these been tested on the airflow box and results aren't impressive at all. Now to remind you they that they cost up to 1600$.
So obviously you will get huge performance from these due to the two motor system?
Sadly that's not the case here.
Nozzle airflow with the bypass motor only running is 76 cfm and both motors running 81 cfm. So direct air motor only boosts 5 cfm when it is added to the vacuum.
So my biggest complaint is that did they even test it when it left from the drawing board? There is quite many single suction motor uprights what can do the same and even better than this fancy tandem air vacuum.
Tandem air system doesn't add agitation or anything else. Only thing what it adds is the production cost and complexity of the vacuum.
You are better off with cheaper Riccar/Simplicity. They offer the same airflow and agitation and they cost a lot less. Naturally suction is unaffected by the Tandem air design.
My intention was not to upset anyone. These are raw numbers and they don't lie.
Just choose normal single suction upright and you will have the same or even more performance. If you really want high airflow upright go for the traditional direct air vacuum.

 

[vacfan1982]

Yes bit of a gimmick and over complicated. I wouldn't want to service one!

As you say go for a Kirby if you want maximum airflow and maximum annoyance

My choice would be the Sebo Felix you can pick them up in the UK for £260 what a bargain!

 

[mike811]

I have seen service video of it and indeed it's very complicated
You can get the same performance a lot cheaper. For example I saw US version Sebo Felix in test and it got 81 cfm. That is very good. EU version with 700 watt motor gets 74 cfm and that is still good. 900 watt Vorwerk VK 135 has whopping 100 cfm.
So much better options are available.
Riccar SupraLite would be cool. Similar design Hoover Platinum Lightweight UH30010 pulls 114 cfm!

 

[n0oxy]

definitely go for the Felix

I think the Felix is by far the best upright you can get. It will clean better than any tandom air upright and will probably clean better than a Kirby as well. And it will clean hard floors as well as a canister cleaner.
Mike

 

[mike811]

Yep I love my Felix. I bought it just because of the hype, but oh man was it worth it.
Very versatile for whole home vacuuming and it really cleans carpets very well.
High German quality vacuum is investment for years to come.

 

[electroluxxxx]

I actually have one and I think what makes it effective at all is the stiff brushroll. Other than that, its loud, suction at the hose is weak, and i can hardly feel any air moving at the base when I place my foot in front of it. One of the biggest issues with the tandem air design that I have found is the air flow path, its very narrow and also has a lot of twists and turns in it. As for the hose, it is a small diameter stretch hose that completely robs the main suction motor from having any performance at all.   

 

[dysonman1]

they are such junk. The motor that powers the hose is the same motor as the small simplicity over-the-shoulder vac called the Sport. Tiny little thing. The other motor (with the direct air fan) is fragile as a woman's love. Cheap, cheap, cheap. The cost to the manufacturer for both motors together is little more than $10. Constant circuit board failures as well as hall sensor failures. I worked on a ton of them and hated every single one. I also saw them catch on fire on the assembly line (I worked for ten years at the factory where they were made) when they stopped the brush motor with a towel to test the hall sensor. I remember one, in flames, came flying down the concrete steps from the production floor, with employees holding fire extinguishers putting out the flames. Good times.

 

[vacfan1982]

Holy smoke batman

 

[s2_82]

I came extremely close to buying one and I'm glad I chose not to.
Alex (vacuumdevil) helped me make my mind up, thanks to him telling the truth.

Instead of shelling out $1000 for a radiance, I'll be investing that in my very first Aerus/ electrolux soon

 

[ralph123]

I always thought the tandem machines were too much of a gimmick and a Rube Goldberg design. While you may attain some advantages of both direct air and bypass designs, you also get the disadvantages and a lot more complexity. They should have substantially increased the amount of US made components of the vacuums. Miele ate their lunch with premium uprights in the $500 to $800 range. $1600 for a tandem machine is insanity.

 

[n0oxy]

I also love my Felix

I love my Felix and that is coming from someone who does not like uprights. It's the only upright I plan on getting, but I really like it because it provides the flexibility of a canister cleaner.
I can't believe they sell those tandom air vacuums if they could catch fire, that is a disaster waiting to happen.
One more comment about the Sebo Felix, it's rare that you find a one size fits all product, but if someone is looking for a good upright, I cannot think of any disadvantage of the Felix, unless they insist on a bagless machine which I think is a bad idea anyway because of the issues that bagless cleaners have.
Mike

 

[mike811]

To be honest I am canister person. Sebo Felix is the only upright what I enjoy using as a daily vacuum. It's very versatile and easy to use. Normally I would use canister only but Felix has changed my mind due to the ease of use.

 

[tseg]

My wife is not a vacuum enthusiast. Over the years I've paraded a number of high-end vacuums past her and she has found fault with every one... up until I brought home a Felix one day. Finally a vacuum that impresses her. I love it as well. So much for the complex Simplicity.

 

[tolivac]

Make YOUR OWN tandem air vacuum-I have---Kirby+NSSM1,Kirby or Royal upright +MD Silentmaster.Yes,I do have some Tandem air machines in my collection-sometimes just fun to use even thought they are ineficeint.

 

[blackheart]

I am Curious

How many of you have actually used a tandem air machine? Obviously Tom has, seems Rex has too.

I will agree that they are overly complex there are better ways to achieve the same level of performance.

I've measured my S40P a few times the highest results I've achieved were
1 motor: 84.77 CFM
2 motors: 95.55 CFM
Bag door open (direct air motor only): 98.63 CFM.
Suction Wise I get 80" from the hose. which is pretty average.
I did at one point measure a S30 I think I got about 88 CFM with both motors running.
They have a nozzle area of about 27in² so they'd have a pretty good airflow density of 3.69

If we talk about their carpet cleaning performance, A riccar R40P set a new record (I think) for dirt removal on vacuumwars
While I've not measured it's carpet cleaning performance i feel it's in the top 4. The only machines I'd put above it are like Kirby, metal royals, and Direct air Sanitaires.

I may be in the vast minority here but I feel performance wise they do rather well and perhaps don't deserve the hate they're getting. Granted tacony has changed and I feel the quality control of the company has gone to crap.

 

[vacfan1982]

I did use a Riccar Brilliance once and yes I thought it cleaned quite well.

It wouldn't be my choice though. Sebo and Vorwerk would be my choice for uprights.
I would like to try a Riccar Supralite.

 

[n0oxy]

comparing tandom air and felix

It would be interesting to compare the cleaning performance of a Riccar Tandom air cleaner with the Sebo Felix, I'm pretty sure they would be pretty close.
I also much prefer hose cleaners, whether that is pull around canisters, backpacks or central vacuums. The Felix is really a power nozzle canister in the shape of an upright. I don't plan on getting any other uprights but the Felix is awesome.
Mike

 

[mike811]

Blackheart


95.55 cfm is more what I would expect from this vacuum.
And yes they seems to have very good brushrolls.
I can't deny that I wouldn't want one of these in my collection.

 

[blackheart]

A comparison

That can be done! I've already tested the Felix with sand 77.4% was the result I got after 10 passes.
Here's the data set so far. I did actually test the S40P on a rug where it did fantastically but decided to strike the result after making the decision to use my normal carpeting as I feel it's a better representation of "standard carpeting" It's also odd to use machines like the Felix/D4 and the R10P/Wonder where the same brushroll design is used have such a large performance gap. I think I tested the D4 like 3-4x and that percentage was the best of the batch. The lindhaus needed some work which I was unaware of at the time so it will be re-tested too.

 

[jo]

Interesting reading and testing. Never been much of a fan of riccar and simplicity...I think they are overpriced for what they are as I grew up with Electrolux and compare anything I come across to the convenience, ease of use, durability, and superior neat clean method to dirt capture and disposal of the Electrolux canisters .I have several eras of Electrolux and an Aerus Lux Legacy and a Shark rocket and have used countless other big box store vacuums always to be disappointed or annoyed by anything other than the Electrolux or Shark rocket but am intrigued by the Sebo Felix comments here.

Though I just don’t think I can justify spending money buying one when I have so many other vacuums and have spent very little to get vacuums But I’d certainly be interested in trying one somehow...anyone know if there are retailers that sell them? The most I ever paid for a vacuum was $125 for my Electrolux Silverado 26 years ago and it was 10 years old then...still going strong as my daily driver having replaced the hose, switch and power nozzle brush over the years. Most any other Vacs were free as a rescue or inexpensive off eBay and the Aerus Lux Legacy ....virtually unused with a complete set of all attachments ...I obtained for a whole $22 at a habitat for humanity store and I almost didn’t bother to get it because I really didn’t need it but decided to just get it anyway figuring I could sell it on eBay if I didn’t like it but glad I got it in the end and will keep it for future use. But I do still wonder about the Sebo Felix. I love versatility in vacuums as I like to thoroughly clean my house and furniture and get in nooks and crannies, top edges of baseboards, etc. plus detail vacuum my cars so an easy to use durable versatile vacuum is a must for me. Aside from the Electrolux canisters and now the Shark rockets...adding the flexible hose and mini power nozzle...I have yet to find anything more convenient and “NOT ANNOYING” to use like most uprights with attachments sold at big box stores that are meant to be disposable vacuums. If a company wants me to spend a lot of money on a vacuum, it better have something durable, unique, very practical for many uses, and be simple and clean when dealing with the dirt. I don’t find riccar, simplicity, Miele, Dyson or Panasonic (Kenmore) canisters to be much more than a step above a basic big box store canister vacuum so they are not worth the money to me...though some can range in the $250 price range and that’s not too bad...but to pay the high price of a riccar or simplicity which don’t offer much difference to a Dyson or Panasonic or Miele...I just can’t see spending that kind of money. Aerus does want a lot of money for their machines but having had their products for so long I do see the ease of use and quality in them. A $1,300 vacuum that lasts 25 to 30 years or more comes to an annual cost of about $50 or less per year...not a bad price for something if it filters well, seals in dirt very thoroughly, includes 2 in 1 attachments, power nozzle geared and nylon reinforced belts that rarely if ever break or stall on thick carpet and very durable lexan plastic parts as the Aerus Lux has so I can see the quality in the product and justify that price. Plus the airflow system it uses is direct path allowing for better suction with less power consumed. It is a scientific fact that with every turn that airflow has to make, airflow efficiency is reduced. This is why they tell you to avoid as many turns as possible in a dryer vent hose. The same is true in a vacuum cleaner, making this gimmick that these expensive riccar sand simplicity’s are making total stupidity.

 

[kloveland]

I like mine. It does lift the carpet and has a good agitator with stiff bristles. I must agree it’s a little over engineered. I picked mine up used. So far, I’ve had no problems with it. It’s like a Kirby with attachments on board. The cfm is high and it lifts the carpet up like a Kirby but the Kirby has more cfm. However, I’m still glad I have one of these in my collection. With reasonable care I expected mine to last awhile.

I do like the cord wrap on the Panasonic, Riccars, etc. The hooks are near the top of the handle and the operator doesn’t have to bend down clear to the floor to wrap the cord around the hooks. I wish more manufactures would have thought of this.

 

[blackheart]

Here's the data

Sorry vacuum testing has not been of too much interest to me lately so it got put off.

I ran both airflow testing and sand testing. I have had issues with getting this machine seated to the box in the past so i made additional efforts to seal it up. I will say my voltage is running a little low today so it's not exactly up to it's peak performance but sealed suction is up due to the better mating.

Single motor airflow: 82.71 CFM
single motor suction: 32"
tandem air airflow: 95.55 CFM
tandem air suction: 40"

All of these are admirable results for a machine that's not fully direct air.

Now on to sand testing. I made an effort to clean the area well with a Sanitaire clearly there were some remnants left behind.
Unfortunately I didn't notice that the number on the empty bag wasn't visisble fortunately I recorded that on paper.
Sand pickup (tainted) 5.53/5 ~111%
Even with a tainted pickup we can conclude that the S40 is no slouch. This is actually a record for all vacs tested by me so far. It's just unfortunate that other debris skews the result.

 

[crazykirbydude]

I think Miele is quite overhyped. They're not awful, but they're basically the bagged equivalent of a Dyson.

 

[mike811]

I quite like Miele canisters. Their filtration and especially bags are very good.
Also they are quiet and powerful. Same cannot be said about Dyson.
Note that Miele prices are way lower in Europe than in US.
Sadly quality isn't what it used to be.
My mid 80's Miele S234i is noticeably better made than my few years old C3.
But it's better than average for sure.
Sebo is more to my liking.

 

[crazykirbydude]

Their vacuums are needlessly complicated with all of the circuit boards and junk, and the bags, which are tiny, are crazy expensive. If I was going to buy a German made vacuum, I would buy a SEBO.

 

[mike811]

crazykirbydude

I agree with you.
Modern vacuums (most of them) have too much circuit boards causing problems in the future.
I have hard time believing that my few years old Miele C3 would last long as my mid 80's Miele S234i.
It is 35 years old now and works like it was new.
Very simple design and overall better quality.
What it comes to airflow and suction there is not much difference. It's not quiet as the newer one, but I prefer it.
Overall I prefer older vacuums most of the time.

 

[vaclab]

Devin That's Quite An Improvement Over

Your previous S40P test where you got 83.23 CFM with two motors. So now we have a $1000+ dual motor rig that can properly challenge a Hoover Tempo Widepath.

91 CFM, 42" of nozzle lift, and about 80" of hose suction. My sand tests were similar to yours as well with 82% pickup.

Yes, I know everybody hates me bringing this up again.

 

[blackheart]

Wait what?

I've always had difficulty getting this unit to seal to the box properly I've tested it quite a few times over the course of owning it. in fact it wasn't too long after I had posted the pictured result where I had re-tested it.

Hm I don't feel as though the sand testing was close. I do admit that my sand testing was skewed by previous dirt despite my efforts to remove as much of it as possible with my Sanitaire S675. We can see the contents of the bag in pictures 10-13 in the testing post above. The vast majority of it is sand. The same area was used to re-test my repaired lindhaus healthcare pro previous then cleaned with the S675 so there may be sand left behind from that.

I think had it not been contaminated we would have seen a result in the mid or high 90s it's got pretty good airflow and a nozzle area of about 27in meaning we should have a density of 3.54. Then we couple that with it's triple row brush's agitation and we have a machine is quite capable.

 

[vaclab]

I Misread Some Of Your Data

And realized that the chart you posted was "blank" next to the S40P box (was reading posts on my phone around lunchtime). Have you properly "reset" your test carpet to make absolutely sure there was no remaining sand (flip it over and vacuum underneath)? One very annoying thing I've found is anyone that posts formal results that touch or exceed the 100% mark is posting false data (Vacuum Wars).

It is never possible to pickup more than you put down, unless what you pickup is not the target dirt and/or remnant test sand. While that brushroll might legitimately pickup more than 80%, I can guarantee some of that will be "dirty". You could try the carpet shredder test and see what you pickup when there is supposedly no dirt in your test carpet.

My gently used Symmetry scored 0.52g in the shredder test and that would equate to a 10% score boost when using 5g of sand. Harsher brushrolls could easily have an even larger error.

Bill