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Yea, I learned a TON. Funny story is that I was visiting a friend who runs an auto dealership when my call came in that they accepted my offer. I was working with a new sales person there and he was a good guy. When they asked about the call, I told them my offer for a new vacuum was accepted. The manager (my friend Brian) was in shock and laughed. Keith, the sales guy (new to the dealership) said the D4 was a GREAT unit and he has used one. I asked him when and he told me he owned a vacuum store for years in his past. That was too funny. I told him the others I was looking at and he said I couldn't go wrong. We spoke about the swivel on the top of the hose and not just at the canister. He agreed with me that he never liked the Riccar/Simplicity design and he feels it puts much too much stress where the hose and handle meet. Not sure if that's true, but it makes sense. He said he never had Sebo's come back for work. Said that the connector where the wand and handle meet is best on the outside even though it's not slick like the Miele because it was easy to fix and not that expensive to get a new jumper if needed. He said he only sold one though as they never were messed up. Said that he had some problems with Miele in the late 90's, early 2000's. Said that he always had broken boards on the Riccar's he sold. Liked them overall and said since they fixed the hose issue that it shouldn't be a problem as I only have one house to vacuum, lol. It was interesting to hear him say that and it just solidified my thoughts. Having fun this morning cleaning, lol.
 
Well this board has convinced me ...

CANISTER.

Definitely.

I've seen the Mieles, but I won't make a decision until I've also tried the Royal S20 (trip into Brooklyn), Electrolux (venture back into that creepy store on 23rd Street), and the Sebo (another trip into Brooklyn).

The Sebo would have to really blow me away, however, to compensate for its lack of a headlight. Yes, I'm one of those Americans who can't imagine vacuuming without a headlight. It's a tiny thing for a manufacturer to install, but an absolutely enormous thing for the user who vacuums in less-than-idea light (dim hallways, under furniture, into closets). I'm amazed that Sebo can take the energy and expense to engineer spinning LED lights to indicate motor speed (something I've managed to live without for 43 years), but can't be bothered with putting a single stationary light on the front of its power nozzle (something I've never been without for 43 years).
 
I...

Don't know if this had been brought up before, but the S20 is based on the Hoover WindTunnel anniversary edition canister. Which has been plagued by electrical problems.
 
Meh.

"Based on" meaning what?

Hoover and Royal are two separate companies.

And the Fantom Thunder supposedly has been "plagued" by "electrical problems" as well. And yet I've had not a single one with mine for 16 years ...
 
I was told by two folks who sell the Royal that they still aren't sold on them for the cost. NYWriter, I take it the Simplicity Moxie isn't in your search? If it is, let me know as you can get one cheap and new about three miles from me. I'd set you up. You may even be able to get a D4 for close to what I paid (I got demo, but he may even sell new for the same. I didn't care as the unit I got is in great shape). It just felt so well built. I too wanted the light and was not happy about not getting one, but I vacuumed again a few minutes ago and honestly, I didn't miss it at all. I liked the shape of the L head and for me, things were easy to use and the suction was great. It sucked out all the sand between my floor boards (poorly laid floor). Loved the Miele, but couldn't justify the cost for me and the guy up here is willing to sell his extra Capricorns down to Earth for 950-800 I think it was.

I'll be interested into what you end up with and why. BTW, to the board, why hasn't anyone mentioned Lindenhouse (can't spell)? I was offered one yesterday for 800 as he wanted to get rid of it. It was a white canister that had a slick Italian look to it and was comfortable. I was going to give it a real look, but I just liked the D4 for some reason and no one has mentioned it and loved it.
 
UGH

KirbyUltimateG ....

That is very disappointing to hear.

CTSooner ...

The nearest Simplicity dealers are in the Bronx or Long Island. Might as well be Pittsburgh. NEXT!
 
NO HEADLIGHT/NO LOSS

NYCWRITER,

In all my years in the vacuum business, I never missed the headlight on the early Lux Omniflo power nozzles like the PN-5. The Sebo ET-1 is an excellent nozzle without it as well. I do like the 236 Miele with the LED headlight better than the vacuum it is attached to though. Hanging out with a very lovely Asian gal there, I have always found there are so many other things to do in the dark besides vacuum. Especially in Manhattan. Wouldn't you agree that a lighted power nozzle might not be that big a deal after all lol?

Brian
 
Brian, I agree that lights an get in the way, but sometimes you love to see what you are getting into, lol. That said, I just finished getting under a few pieces of furniture and the one thing no one really talks about is how easy it is to get under everything. I now wont' have dust bunnies under everything and that's going to help the air in this place.

NYWriter, I have a dealer up here who has the Moxie on sale for 599. He's ship it to you if you need to I bet and you'd have the warranty. He has two in the box that he wants to move. He's also give you about 100 or more off the Miele S5 models he has left as he has the new ones in already and he stocks every model of Miele and needs the room as well as the money. Nice guy who we've bought from for years and years. He sells Sebo, but didnt' stock the D4, so I went elsewhere or I would have bought from him again.
 
NYCWriter

"Based On" meaning the same machine with a different colored plastic and different PN. Stories and reports of circuit board failure are everywhere. Go to reply 185 by KirbyLux77 for more info. They may look like a Miele but they'll never come close.
 
Fantom lightning. I'll say it again!! HOOVER HAS FIXED THE CIRCUIT BOARD PROBLEM!! The circuit board problem affected earlier units of the Hoover Windtunnel Anniversary Bagged canister model S3670. The electrical board controlled the hose switch for the agitator on/off. The board has been remedied so it will not affect power to power nozzle!! You can talk with Guardsman69 on here and he can tell you more. He is longest operated Hoover Warranty dealer.

TTI Floorcare has owned Royal and Dirt Devil for many years. In 2006 after Maytag was acquired by Whirlpool, Hoover was sold. Maytag ran the Hoover company down the drain during the years they owned them. Upon the sale in 2006 Hoover sold for several million dollars less than they were years ago because Maytag ran them down the drain.

Royal and Hoover are now owned by TTI. The two machines Hoover Windtunnel Anniversary S3670 and Royal Lexon SR30020 have very similar designed suction units but the Royal has better internal parts. Outside of the suction units these machines are 100% different.

Hoover Windtunnel canister:]
old style Windtunnel nozzle. A powerful cleaner with powerful motor but: cheap plastic, terrible front and rear wheels, automatic height adjuster, stretch belt, terrible hose. One of the worst hoses on a canister vacuum next to the Sebo D4, which I have blisters from the hose grip handle!! Thanks Sebo... Wand release will go bad after a few years, telescoping wand is cheap

Royal Lexon SR30020 canister:
New style dual suction chamber power nozzle. 4 carpet manual height adjustment pedal, wand release pedal. Rubber coated front and rear wheels with metal axles, durable, strong built plastic base. Completely sealed system. Serpentine belt, belt protection system. Low profile power nozzle with headlight on lower wand. Better quality telescoping wand over Hoover model. EXTREMELY comfortable, easy to use hose with amazing hand grip. Sealed suction unit. I have internet searched and have not read of any electrical issues with this unit.

I have buddies in vacuum business that like this vac and have had great success selling it in their store. Is it the Cadillac of vacuums and built like a Kirby. NO! However this is one very powerful, very easy to use canister vacuum cleaner at a decent price. I would love to own one!!

I have recommended looking at the Lindhaus canister vacuums as CTSooner mentioned, no one else has mentioned it. The power nozzle on that is one of if not the best in the industry!! Same power nozzle as the MD central vac Stealth model.

Brands I recommend: Royal, Miele, Simplicity, Riccar, Lindhaus, Aerus, Perfect, older Hoover, older TriStar. Miracle Mate is one that looks quite unique and interesting but I've never seen one outside of the internet so I can't recommend without using in person. Anyone with feedback for a Miracle Mate chime in!!

With my experience of a few models from the company and over 20 years passion of canister vacuums, and 18 years professionally cleaning houses. I can of no means what so ever recommend a Sebo for what you receive paying that high a price. At $350 its fine. I can 100% honestly say that my Riccar 1700 canister OUTCLEANS the Sebo D4 on several rug pile heights and textures and bare floors!!! The Sebo feels equal to my Riccar at 60% power. With Riccar running at 100% suction power the Sebo is annihilated!!! I would love to take my clients Sebo out and use for target practice or experiment with some C4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CTSooner I wish you 10,000X, TEN THOUSAND TIMES better luck than I have had with it.

 
The handle would bother me if I used it much. I just roll it in and out of the closet and the seam doesn't bother me. I agree that it should be designed better. As for the hose, I love the fact that it's got a Venturi effect design. It has picked up things that my other vacuums haven't. Even my housekeeper we used to have didn't pick this stuff up and she used a top line Miele or Simplicity depending on the day. Every dealer I went to that had both Sebo and Riccar/Simplicity liked the Sebo much more and said it was a much better build. Side by side they picked up the same amount, but on pet hair the Sebo picked it all up in the first or maybe second pass and the Moxie or Impeccable needed three or more passes of the power head.

I don't pretend to be more than I am, a home owner who wants a clean house and an easy to use unit. My living doesn't depend on ability to be perfect like you guys. I would have been very very happy with the Moxie at 550, but the dealer there (who wanted to move the moxie) said that the Sebo is a better built machine and he hasn't had one come back for any issues. He said he get the Simplicity back on occasion for minor repairs and most are due to neglect. He's sold Royals and Simplicity for for over 40 years. I just remembered that he sold me a Simplicity over 20 years ago and I never liked it. I think deep down that was one reason I shied away from that company. I don't know, but it just never said 'buy me'. It always said, you can get me at a good deal. His favorite over his Miele, Simplicity, Royal, Hoover or any other canister he sells is the D4. He wont' stock it because it won't move vs the Miele's and the Moxie won't move either and that's why he's selling his stock of them off.
 
Durango159, we all get how much you hate sebo, you need not bash them over and over again. there are brands that i do not like, but i am not going to keep bashing the brand(s) over and over again. give it a break.
 
Durango, go check out that video and see what innovations they have on this machine. Top suction so it never looses suction with a full bag. Ultra low readings on the exhaust. The most innovative hose around. Bottom line for me is that it works and the place looks great. I have no blisters yet and it's fun to vacuum. I even have grown to like that LED, plus the handle is as comfortable for me as the Miele was. The weight doesn't bother me either since I am not weight lifting it. The four rubber casters move it around as easily as anything else on the market and the longer hose and cord really do let me plug it in once per floor and get the whole place done. How cool is that?
 
Durango...

Regardless of what Royal has done to improve the S20, a plastic Chinese disgrace like that should NOT be selling in the price point it is... That should be about a $200-$300 machine max to compete with the high end Sears Kenmore machines. Even Miele manages to make a machine cheaper than that, in Germany no less. As for getting information from Guardsman69... I'll start getting information from him when he decides to not type in all capitals/ignore capitalization all together, and use some form of punctuation for that matter.
 
As I pointed out earlier ...

The Hoover Convertible in 1968 sold for $568 in today's dollars.

And that sucker was virtually ALL metal.

Why does a $500 vacuum today have to be all plastic??
 
Longer n lighter

A good point . One aspect i like about my sebo d is that the hose is slightly longer than others AND the all metal tubes are also lighter. Thus in use thered very little need to pulling or lifting the vacuum around.

Sebo also equip their K1& 3 with lighter tubes and long hoses to prevent owners from needlessly pulling the vac close to them.
 
sebo fan

Loving that longer hose and cord. It makes a world of difference as you can clean quicker. So far it's taken everything I can throw at it and I can now say things look and smell much cleaner. It's gotten most of that Oreck dry cleaning powder up that I was using for years. I don't think that stuff ever come up fully. I have pets who like to stain the carpet and had used that stuff for a long time. Now I use Bissells product. Maybe I'll start a thread about the best way to clean up dog pee from rugs and carpets. LOL....
 
Fantom Lightning

$200-$300 on a Sears Kenmore puts a buyer in their low to mid range. The Orange model at original retail of $229 or the White at original retail of $300.

Orange model in a way is the better of the two because it has a reliable hose that Panasonic/ Kenmore canisters have been using for many years. This hose is a universal fit to fit attachment from many other vacs on market. Quick disconnect wands but these wands are prone to burning wires at power nozzle connection after a few years. Air turbine powered hand tool. The problems with the Orange machine are extremely flimsy plastic for attachment door and main suction unit. Bag compartment is small and bag needs to be folded in half to fit. A new bag style was not produced to fit this machine, instead you still use Kenmore C 50557 bags but fold in half. Kenmore HEPA Q could be used but you'd really be scrunging to get to fit inside.

White model is plagued by the Kenmore series new hose style. The handle is very comfortable. However this hose, also found on Blueberry and Red Progressives are not a universal fit and only fit the attachments which come standard with original purchase. The hose handle although comfortable for user is very bulky. Dusting brush and upholstery nozzle are the shape of the suction opening. They are oblong shaped and don't fit in areas well. The upholstery nozzle is a series of fins that looks like Miniblinds. Crevice tool attaches to hose handle and is difficult to remove and reattach.

The Kenmore TOL series would be the blue Intuition canister. It's very quiet, has dirt sensor, variable speed control, on/off for entire machine and power nozzle on hose handle. In general the suction unit is very nice with large bag capacity. This vacuums problem is the power nozzle. It's a hybrid head with removable bare floor brush that completes the power nozzles. This makes for a bulkier, harder to maneuver power head that in my experience is much more cumbersome to maneuver than a normal canister power head. Due to its bulky connection to power head, once wand lowers to about 9" off the floor, the front of the power nozzle starts lifting off the rug. For a canister power nozzle this is bad as it really defeats purpose of a canister vacuum. The bare floor brush is very skimpy on bristles and connection to power nozzle is very delicate and numerous consumers including my client who has purchased 3 of these units for her 11,000 sq. foot home and separate meeting space over the years has had 2 units break and power head will not reattach to wands. New parts to fix connection cost about $100 through Sears.

Kirbylux77 can tell you more about this than I can, but in recent years, sadly Panasonic has been continuously switching motors in their units and using very cheap ones. Panasonic makes all of the Kenmore canisters so both companies products have suction units that are experiencing motor death at about 4- 6 years old.

It is my opinion that the Royal is a much better quality machine and will clean better than these Kenmores. The power nozzle on the Hoover has longer bristles over the CenTec CT20DXQD series heads found on the Kenmores and grooms carpets better while grabbing pet hair and other dirt faster. The Royal power nozzle also utilizes Hoovers patented Windtunnel design. The hose handle on the Royal is extremely comfortable with long very flexible, durable material and power nozzle is very powerful.

For those have not yet taken a closer look at this in a vacuum shop, I would advise doing so. First look at a Hoover Windtunnel Anniversary, then look at this. I think you'll find its not nearly as bad as you think. Is it perfect--- NO!! Is it anywhere near the quality of the previous Royal Power Tank that we all miss--- NO! But it's a closer image to that of Miele, Sebo, Riccar, Lindhaus, Kenmore and all of those other machines that are also nearly all PLASTIC!! The suction unit on the Royal has a solid construction feel.

If you look at a Hoover Windtunnel bagged canister from around 2007 like the S3639 and those PowerMax series ones, you would be more impressed with the newer body style. It is a sealed system with HEPA filtration which its predecessor was nowhere near sealed and filtration was terrible!! As much as I love its predecessor the filtration was terrible and body construction was flimsy. Not so with the new series!!

durango159++1-10-2013-22-20-24.jpg
 
Was...

The essay on Sears Kenmore really necessary? Yes, the new machines are horrid quality wise many people have posted that information many times, most all are familiar with the concept. Only reason I brought them up is they are one of the most known canister brands on the market. My point was for a Chinese made machine why does it cost this much other than for insane profit margins for TTI? Yes, Sebo, Miele, and others (Kenmore aside) you listed above are also made of plastic. The other machines however are NOT built in countries with horrid labor and quality control issues such as China.
 
CTSooner

I am very happy that you found a vacuum that suits your needs and is doing a decent job you. I think ease of use, good filtration and powerful were your primary requirements due to your condition.

I appreciate the sealed system with excellent filtration, I appreciate the quiet motor with variable speed at finger tips, I like the telescopic wand as it seems sturdy, I have read about their tapered diameter hose for increased airflow. The crevice tool is decent length, the upholstery nozzle is a good width with strong bristles which work well on pet hair. The 40' cord is awesome. I also appreciate the large bag and suction coming from top which sustains strong suction as bag fills.

I do not own a Sebo D4, my experience with it comes from my newest house cleaning client which is a house with spare rooms for Bed & Breakfast set up. The black Sebo Airbelt D4 was purchased in the beginning of November. The home owner has told me that the house is 11,000 Sq. Ft. I clean at her property about 3 days a week anywhere from 3-8 hours depending on events, my schedule,dirt level, and arranging for different sections to be done. Client is very particular about cleanliness and dust elimination while having lots of foot traffic coming in and out along with pets. The house is primarily ceramic tile with some hard wood flooring, an 18 step, double wide staircase, and several area rugs of varying sizes. Rugs vary of everything from rubber bottomed low pile indoor/outdoor rugs to approx. 20' x 15' low density weave 2.5" long yarn style rug. I've tried a combination of all height adjustments, varying suction for all rugs. I can not get D4 to clean any of the carpets to my satisfaction. Any of the rugs exceeding 1" in pile height to the 20'x 15' long weave yarn rug, the vacuum can't handle at all. The belt protection board shuts off the power nozzle on all of them. I completely understand that for the long weave rug but the regular length dense rugs even my old school upright Hoover Decade 80 can handle fine!! The lower pile rug and regular cut style rugs, the power head just not clean well. I have to push it at an absolute snails pace trying to get it to suck up pet hair, lint and other, visible dirt. The agitator is clean. I've taken it off a few times and cleaned it blue bristles. There's never anything on it, but I take it off anyway just to make sure. I also open up the orange clog release door on bottom of PN and ensure that is clear. I hold back the resistance of the powerheads "self propel" feel so that it can take its time to clean the rug but it doesn't seem to work. Eventually after several slow passes the low pile carpets look clean. Sometimes I still touch up rugs with Powermate Jr. attachment on customers Kenmore Intuition canister. Main power nozzle is broken for the Kenmore canister so I can't use it.

I've taken my Hoover PowerMax canister, Hoover Decade 80 upright-- in picture below, Riccar 1700 canister and Kenmore Lime Green canister vac to this clients house. The Riccar, Kenmore and clients Dyson upright are the only vacuums that can clean the extremely long threaded yarn style rug with approx. 2.5" long threads. However all 4 of my vacs can clean all of the other rugs in the house and do so with ease. The Riccar does much better with tile floors and all carpets in comparison with Sebo. The Sebo has terrific suction but not like the Riccar. There is a tremendous difference.

I'm not a typical "Once over Lightly" styled house cleaner. I'm in the business to clean houses thoroughly and efficiently. I vacuum every area of carpet several strokes. I allow time for chemicals to remove stubborn stains and disinfect on all all bathroom fixtures and tile flooring before final wipe down. The products I use have to clean well and I'm very fussy about cleaning chemicals, mops and vacuums.

I am ecstatic that the machine is working well for you where it didn't for me. I only hope that the trend continues and you're not disappointed in a few months!!

durango159++1-10-2013-23-35-47.jpg
 
Sorry it didn't work for you

Hmmm, I did a TON of research. Not many basic consumers would have found a vacuum board to try and get input I don't think. No I'm not in the business, but I like nice things. It's too bad you had such a poor experience with the D4, but like I"ve always said, this is why they make different models etc.... I'm sure I'm as particular as you are about having a clean home. I have lived on ships for many years (retired Naval officer/ship driver) and it was brutal. I am meticulous in the way I groom, dress, clean etc.. I have been a high end audiophile since I was 13 and I learned at a young age to pay properly and that the most expensive or most hyped name isn't usually the best. I also learned that if you don't take great care of your stuff, you wont' be happy and it will never perform the way it's intended. I took my MS out of this equation as much as I could. I realized that just like high end audio, it's not all about the tech specs. Anything over 90 will have good enough suction to pick up anything in a house as long as the heads and hoses can handle it.

In audio, I give input. I ask and answer any question newbies have and I try to always take into account everything they say they need, but I always ask them what they DON"T want. That's more important to me. Then I make sure they go play and listen to everything and then use everything. No matter how great a system or product is, it must be set up correctly and used correctly or it won't perform the way it's intended. Sometimes folks go against my advice and purchase something different than I have shown them. In those cases I've always congratulated them and am happy for them as they got what they wanted. In nearly all those cases they've been so happy years later and that's what it's all about. I never have squashed any of their initial excitement as I don't want them to have buyer remorse. If they think Bose are the best speakers, that's fine by me even though they have no highs or lows, so they must be Bose.

I researched everything about these units and I saw every one of them taken apart to see their motors and where they are sourced. I saw how small the Oreck units really are. I saw the power heads taken apart to see their motors too. I saw how the new Mieles are now made again in Germany. There are things wrong with every cleaner out there. For every person like you who seems to dislike the D4, there are many others who swear by it. This machine has won many design awards and the suction unit is a special design that no one else has. Guess it's a good thing I don't have 2.5" long thread carpets. I only have wood, tile and medium length carpet and a rug that has not stopped my PN yet. I tried the Capricorn, Moxie and D4 with full bags. The D4 was the ONLY one of the three that didn't lose suction. The other two had problems picking up basic dirt and lint with their bags full. I throw my bags away half full, but it showed me that the D4 is the only one of the three I was looking at that won't lose it's power as it fills up. To me clinical test with an empty bag has to be looked at in context.

As for the use of plastic, they all do. There are many different types though. I could fall and the one thing I did take into account was falling down, which I often do. I'd crush the tops of the Miele as well as the Moxie. The D4 is pretty bullet proof and I love the flat top as it gives me something to put my hand on when falling if needed. You luckily dont' ever have to think about something like that when making your decision and that's a great thing.

I'm very excited without any buyers remorse. I didn't have the extra 300 to buy up to a Miele, but to me that wasn't really buying up anyways. I could have waited for a new unit that I've heard is coming out in the next year or less that will have more suction than anything on the market now and will be smaller and lighter. It will most probably have even better power heads etc..., but in the end, it will probably out of my price range too. New things always come out and not all are better so I won't concern myself with what's next as I do in audio. I'll just keep looking forward to cleaning like I always do and I'll enjoy having made a great decision about a great tool as many others before me have. I am sure I misread the intent of your post, especially the last sentence where you said: "I am ecstatic that the machine is working well for you where it didn't for me. I only hope that the trend continues and you're not disappointed in a few months!!". I've learned that on internet boards the written word isn't always in the same tone as it's meant to be. I'm not the only one who took your post to come off as condescending. I got two emails about it believe it or not.

I do sincerely appreciate your help as well as the guidance of everyone who's posted in this thread. It's helped me more than you can imagine. Please take my post in the correct manor as I'm just pointing out that I'm really excited about my vacuum and I made the right choice for me. I too hope that I'll be happy about my choice in a few months from now.

Now if anyone's interested I'm selling a 30" Lynx grill in GREAT shape that has the Powesear, infra-red burner and rotisserie. It's a stand alone unit with the steel shelves and natural gas. I'll let it go at a great price as I've found a new toy that I want for my grilling and smoking that's just come out. I also have a TON of entry level high end as well as some upper high end gear that I'm willing to let go for fair market value as my needs have changed. I'm sure in the future I'll be listing a used D4 as there will be another vacuum that I'll just want more. Maybe that new one I heard about? Won't that be fun. I will promise all of you that I'll only have one in the house at a time.....that is unless I decide to keep the D4 up stairs in the carpeted area and get one just for the wood floor on the first floor.........and the saga continues.

NYC, I can't wait to see what you chose and what will go into your thought process in the end. Cool isn't it? My wife just laughs at me and let's me play. I picked well this time.
 
CTSooner ...

"I'm very excited without any buyers remorse. I didn't have the extra 300 to buy up to a Miele, but to me that wasn't really buying up anyways."

I agree.

I have the extra $300, but I'm considering all the vacs on a level playing field.

I'll check out the Royal ... the Sebo (I'll have to just tape a damn flashlight to the power nozzle -- ugh) ... and maybe even the Lindhaus.

I'm sure they all *suck* the dirt pretty much equally. What will win out for me, as in many things, is fit and feel ... accessories (I MUST have a mini-power head to clean the cat hair off my upholstery -- suction alone doesn't cut it) ... noise level ... and ease of use.
 

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