Direct air power nozzle
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crazykirbydude
Well-known member
What about the Riccar Volt? I think that will bring even more power to machines like the Electrolux Model 30!
kirbyvertibles
Well-known member
The problem with some is that the power nozzle has to much airflow and the canister motor struggles to keep up. This is the case for Airway. I have the Don Clark/ Airway configuration and when using them together it chokes off but if I turn off the canister then the power nozzle grabs the carpet better.
Hans, Did Regina only do this to their top models? I'm asking because I have a Regina Brush N Beat canister and power nozzle but my power nozzle is not tandem air.
Hans, Did Regina only do this to their top models? I'm asking because I have a Regina Brush N Beat canister and power nozzle but my power nozzle is not tandem air.
n0oxy
Well-known member
volt nozzle
Yes, Tacony has done it successfully. The volt nozzle is not only a power nozzle, but it has the dirty air design. It will actually pick up debris from the carpet with no vacuum attached to it. Of course, this is not very productive, but it does demonstrate the power the nozzle has. Combine that with a central vacuum or canister vacuum and the results are very good. I think they're coming out with a tandom air nozzle for the Prima canister as well. I wish they would upgrade their universal fit all central vacuum nozzle to this design too.
Yes, Tacony has done it successfully. The volt nozzle is not only a power nozzle, but it has the dirty air design. It will actually pick up debris from the carpet with no vacuum attached to it. Of course, this is not very productive, but it does demonstrate the power the nozzle has. Combine that with a central vacuum or canister vacuum and the results are very good. I think they're coming out with a tandom air nozzle for the Prima canister as well. I wish they would upgrade their universal fit all central vacuum nozzle to this design too.
ralph123
Well-known member
I'm not as bullish on the Tandem design. I like the bypass design or direct air design but not both combined in the same machine. I don't want the disadvantages of both. They just need to work on optimizing the nozzle. If Miele uprights can get a top score in carpet cleaning tests (Consumer Reports) with a bypass design, so can Riccar/Simplicity. The nozzle design has got to be better. Needs less dead space.
n0oxy
Well-known member
disadvantages
What do you think are the disadvantages of each system? For the dirty air design, it does not work as well with attachments, but with a power nozzle, that's a nonissue. The main disadvantage I can see with the clean air design is that you need good filtration in order to prevent dust from getting in to the motor, but that's the case regardless of whether you use a tandom nozzle. I think one appeal of the volt nozzle is that it can give good carpet cleaning abilities to a vacuum that otherwise does not have it, such as a straight suction canister or central vacuum with nonelectric hose.
What do you think are the disadvantages of each system? For the dirty air design, it does not work as well with attachments, but with a power nozzle, that's a nonissue. The main disadvantage I can see with the clean air design is that you need good filtration in order to prevent dust from getting in to the motor, but that's the case regardless of whether you use a tandom nozzle. I think one appeal of the volt nozzle is that it can give good carpet cleaning abilities to a vacuum that otherwise does not have it, such as a straight suction canister or central vacuum with nonelectric hose.
kirbysthebest
Well-known member
Tortoise and the Hare.
kirbysthebest
Well-known member
Tortise would be the Kirby. In in for the long haul. Will be there 20, 30, 50 years down the line.
Shark=Hare. Short burst of speed, won't usually see the next fiscal year. Definitely won't be here in five years.
Shark=Hare. Short burst of speed, won't usually see the next fiscal year. Definitely won't be here in five years.
Haha true. But I keep hearing how much deeper a direct air motor will clean carpets but is that exaggerated?
The Kirby will last decades which is a big plus but I was always led to believe they cleaned a lot deeper than a clean air machine.
The Kirby will last decades which is a big plus but I was always led to believe they cleaned a lot deeper than a clean air machine.
kirbylux77
Well-known member
Not so fast on the tandem air power nozzle parade here, guys. There are some advantages to adding a tandem air power nozzle to a canister to increase airflow & cleaning power, for sure, no denying that. But, there are also some disadvantages Tacony is going to have to address with the Riccar Prima & Simplicity Wonder canisters & the tandem air power nozzle, & find solutions for them.
For starters, one BIG problem they are going to have to overcome is the bag material used to make the HEPA Cloth bags, & the bag chamber design. What Phillip - Kirbyvertibles says above about the Air Way tandem air canister design is true....the canister could not keep up with the tandem air power nozzle. Even Tom Gasko has said this was a issue with them. Why? Because they used paper bags that the pores of the bag clogged quickly even before the tandem air power nozzle was added, choking off airflow in the canister, & adding the airflow the fan from the tandem air power nozzle would add would exacerbate the problem even more. The only way to solve this problem would be to use a HEPA Cloth bag that doesn't clog easily. The problem here, unfortunately, is that Tacony's HEPA Cloth canister bags for all their canisters are only 3 ply HEPA Cloth bags, just like everyone else except Miele uses. It's been my experience, unfortunately, that the Tacony HEPA Cloth bags do clog fairly quickly, at about 1/3 full. The only HEPA Cloth bags I have found for canister vacuums that maintain their airflow well are the Miele Airclean bags, those bags you can fill up to 3/4 full until you start to see any loss in airflow, since they are 9 ply HEPA Cloth bags. So, in order to optimize airflow the canister produces, Tacony will have to copy the Miele Airclean bag design & make a 9 ply HEPA Cloth bag, as well as redesign the bag chamber to accommodate it. Since Miele just came out with that bag design only a few years ago, they will have to wait a long time before they can do that though.
The other problem with the tandem air power nozzle is it eliminates one classic canister power nozzle design: the funnel shaped brushroll chamber. The reason why canisters clean better than uprights, in most cases, is twofold: 1. Canisters produce more suction & airflow to pull in more dirt, more quickly. 2. The funnel shaped brushroll chamber in a canister power nozzle replicates the functionality of a bell shaped upright vacuum power nozzle housing, like the Kirby & Royal designs, & most of the old direct air uprights from the 1930's & 1940's, like General Electric. The funnel shaped brushroll chamber design in a canister power nozzle & bell shaped upright vacuum power nozzle design ensures airflow is evenly spread throughout the entire powerhead, meaning as the brushroll loosens the dirt from the carpet pile it gets carried away evenly by the airflow into the vacuum. With the tandem air power nozzle design, it's designed just like a lightweight direct air upright design: fan producing suction & airflow on one side, belt on the other side. This means that airflow isn't even throughout the tandem air power nozzle like it would be in a traditional canister power nozzle design. What I would like Tacony see doing with the tandem air power nozzle design is to incorporate the Hoover Windtunnel brushroll chamber design into the tandem air power nozzle's design. This would overcome the uneven airflow effect & ensure even airflow inside the tandem air power nozzle & therefore ensure optimum cleaning power & dirt removal from carpets. Again, though, they are going to have to wait a few years until Hoover's patents on the Windtunnel design expires before they can copy it.
I am in favor of the tandem air power nozzle, don't get me wrong. I just think that while it is a good idea & has some merit, it could still use some further refinement & some tweaks to the tandem air power nozzle design, as well as the canister vacuum design to ensure the concept of a tandem air power nozzle added to a canister vacuum performs at it's best & doesn't disappoint the consumer that buys it to use in their home. I really do think once the bag design is improved, as well as the airflow characteristics inside the brushroll chamber of the tandem air power nozzle are improved & optimized, this will be a huge success for Tacony.
Rob
For starters, one BIG problem they are going to have to overcome is the bag material used to make the HEPA Cloth bags, & the bag chamber design. What Phillip - Kirbyvertibles says above about the Air Way tandem air canister design is true....the canister could not keep up with the tandem air power nozzle. Even Tom Gasko has said this was a issue with them. Why? Because they used paper bags that the pores of the bag clogged quickly even before the tandem air power nozzle was added, choking off airflow in the canister, & adding the airflow the fan from the tandem air power nozzle would add would exacerbate the problem even more. The only way to solve this problem would be to use a HEPA Cloth bag that doesn't clog easily. The problem here, unfortunately, is that Tacony's HEPA Cloth canister bags for all their canisters are only 3 ply HEPA Cloth bags, just like everyone else except Miele uses. It's been my experience, unfortunately, that the Tacony HEPA Cloth bags do clog fairly quickly, at about 1/3 full. The only HEPA Cloth bags I have found for canister vacuums that maintain their airflow well are the Miele Airclean bags, those bags you can fill up to 3/4 full until you start to see any loss in airflow, since they are 9 ply HEPA Cloth bags. So, in order to optimize airflow the canister produces, Tacony will have to copy the Miele Airclean bag design & make a 9 ply HEPA Cloth bag, as well as redesign the bag chamber to accommodate it. Since Miele just came out with that bag design only a few years ago, they will have to wait a long time before they can do that though.
The other problem with the tandem air power nozzle is it eliminates one classic canister power nozzle design: the funnel shaped brushroll chamber. The reason why canisters clean better than uprights, in most cases, is twofold: 1. Canisters produce more suction & airflow to pull in more dirt, more quickly. 2. The funnel shaped brushroll chamber in a canister power nozzle replicates the functionality of a bell shaped upright vacuum power nozzle housing, like the Kirby & Royal designs, & most of the old direct air uprights from the 1930's & 1940's, like General Electric. The funnel shaped brushroll chamber design in a canister power nozzle & bell shaped upright vacuum power nozzle design ensures airflow is evenly spread throughout the entire powerhead, meaning as the brushroll loosens the dirt from the carpet pile it gets carried away evenly by the airflow into the vacuum. With the tandem air power nozzle design, it's designed just like a lightweight direct air upright design: fan producing suction & airflow on one side, belt on the other side. This means that airflow isn't even throughout the tandem air power nozzle like it would be in a traditional canister power nozzle design. What I would like Tacony see doing with the tandem air power nozzle design is to incorporate the Hoover Windtunnel brushroll chamber design into the tandem air power nozzle's design. This would overcome the uneven airflow effect & ensure even airflow inside the tandem air power nozzle & therefore ensure optimum cleaning power & dirt removal from carpets. Again, though, they are going to have to wait a few years until Hoover's patents on the Windtunnel design expires before they can copy it.
I am in favor of the tandem air power nozzle, don't get me wrong. I just think that while it is a good idea & has some merit, it could still use some further refinement & some tweaks to the tandem air power nozzle design, as well as the canister vacuum design to ensure the concept of a tandem air power nozzle added to a canister vacuum performs at it's best & doesn't disappoint the consumer that buys it to use in their home. I really do think once the bag design is improved, as well as the airflow characteristics inside the brushroll chamber of the tandem air power nozzle are improved & optimized, this will be a huge success for Tacony.
Rob
I understand the problem with the bag clogging but you said motor on one side belt on other. Wouldn't the fan be in the centre of the floor nozzle like it is on the Riccar tandem air uprights? There's a plastic intake with a 90 degree angle that seals against the fan. Doesn't that give an even distribution of airflow across the floorhead?
My apologies you are correct about the air intake not being evenly distributed across the floor nozzle.
So right now the best combo would be a direct air motor cleaner for use on carpets and a canister cleaner for other jobs.
That's what I have. A Kirby Sentria 2 and a Miele S5 and C3
So right now the best combo would be a direct air motor cleaner for use on carpets and a canister cleaner for other jobs.
That's what I have. A Kirby Sentria 2 and a Miele S5 and C3
kirbylux77
Well-known member
Marcus - Unfortunately, that thinking would be wrong. For the longest time, canisters have been able to hold their own against ANY direct air upright, when they have a new bag installed. The only thing really holding back canisters until now was the bag chamber design & clogging paper bags. Miele has finally solved that problem with the 9 ply Airclean bags. Most of us vac collectors have thought that since the fan is so close to the powerhead on a Kirby or Royal, & because airflow is so important to proper cleaning & how much airflow they produce, that a Kirby or Royal would outclean a canister. Until now.
Reality is, your Miele canisters, when used with the SEB228 or SEB236 pn, will clean every bit as well as your Kirby Sentria II. It's not how close the airflow is to the nozzle that matters. It's how much airflow the motor produces, how evenly that airflow is distributed throughout the powerhead, proper agitation by the powerhead brushroll, & how fast that airflow carries the dirt into the bag that really affects how a vacuum performs. Today's canister vacuum motors are capable of producing HUGE amounts of airflow & waterlift, in some cases they will match central vac performance. That's something direct air uprights will NEVER be able to do, it's a limitation that technology has due to their fan design.
I have a 1992 Kenmore EVPC canister that I put a new motor in, from the Perfect C101 (Electrolux Diamond Jubilee copy), that pulls 125" waterlift. It's strong enough that with a new bag, it will outpower a central vac. That vacuum, if you put it in a head to head challenge with a Kirby Sentria, Avalir or newer Royal Metal, will EASILY match or beat the Kirby or Royal if you did a "big mess test" like Kode1996 does on YouTube.
Rob
Reality is, your Miele canisters, when used with the SEB228 or SEB236 pn, will clean every bit as well as your Kirby Sentria II. It's not how close the airflow is to the nozzle that matters. It's how much airflow the motor produces, how evenly that airflow is distributed throughout the powerhead, proper agitation by the powerhead brushroll, & how fast that airflow carries the dirt into the bag that really affects how a vacuum performs. Today's canister vacuum motors are capable of producing HUGE amounts of airflow & waterlift, in some cases they will match central vac performance. That's something direct air uprights will NEVER be able to do, it's a limitation that technology has due to their fan design.
I have a 1992 Kenmore EVPC canister that I put a new motor in, from the Perfect C101 (Electrolux Diamond Jubilee copy), that pulls 125" waterlift. It's strong enough that with a new bag, it will outpower a central vac. That vacuum, if you put it in a head to head challenge with a Kirby Sentria, Avalir or newer Royal Metal, will EASILY match or beat the Kirby or Royal if you did a "big mess test" like Kode1996 does on YouTube.
Rob
That is very interesting. I have noticed that the Miele has strong airflow but I didn't think it could match the Kirby.
Maybe I should do the powder under the carpet test with my Miele S5 and see if it will pick it up like the Sentria 2 did.
Do you think the Baird meter is a good test for airflow and what will the Miele score?
Maybe I should do the powder under the carpet test with my Miele S5 and see if it will pick it up like the Sentria 2 did.
Do you think the Baird meter is a good test for airflow and what will the Miele score?
sptyks
Well-known member
Marcus,
Although I generally agree with Rob on most things, I do not agree with him when it comes to a canister vac out cleaning a Kirby or Royal. First, you need to have a nozzle that seals to the carpet like Kirby or Royal. I don't know of any canister that has a power nozzle that seals to the carpet. I don't care how much waterlift you have, it's airflow and agitation that cleans the carpet! That's why Tacony invented the Volt power nozzle - to increase the normally weak airflow of most canisters. But even the Volt coupled to the best canister vac cannot outclean a Sentria II or Royal Everlast.
I believe Rob will chime in and tell you all the reasons he believes I am wrong, but that's okay because it's up to you Marcus, to agree with whomever you feel makes the most sense to you.
I would challenge Rob to provide a video that shows a canister outcleaning a Kirby Sentria II or Avalir.
Although I generally agree with Rob on most things, I do not agree with him when it comes to a canister vac out cleaning a Kirby or Royal. First, you need to have a nozzle that seals to the carpet like Kirby or Royal. I don't know of any canister that has a power nozzle that seals to the carpet. I don't care how much waterlift you have, it's airflow and agitation that cleans the carpet! That's why Tacony invented the Volt power nozzle - to increase the normally weak airflow of most canisters. But even the Volt coupled to the best canister vac cannot outclean a Sentria II or Royal Everlast.
I believe Rob will chime in and tell you all the reasons he believes I am wrong, but that's okay because it's up to you Marcus, to agree with whomever you feel makes the most sense to you.
I would challenge Rob to provide a video that shows a canister outcleaning a Kirby Sentria II or Avalir.
wyaple
Well-known member
Miele Canister Airflow Prediction #1
I love a challenge. So it has been claimed that a modern canister can keep up with a modern Kirby. Let's check some possible calculations rather than just making unfounded claims based on things other than airflow.
Miele Complete C3 Cat & Dog
Stated airflow is 141 CFM. This is a motor spec and I'm about 99% sure that is a spec of that very motor running "naked". That is NOT installed in the vacuum itself. If you doubt me, just check the motor specs for the Lux Guardian, rated at 505 Airwatts and 116" of water lift.
What everybody seems to forget is that ALL canisters have a major disadvantage compared to uprights and especially compared to Kirby or any similar machine (i.e. Royal). Please see below:
Kirby airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*ONE*
Typical canister airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*FIVE to SIX*
In addition, canisters have a length of hose and some type of U-bend to redirect the airflow to the base of the power nozzle.
For your examination and comment, please see the best case scenario for the wildly expensive Miele C3. Even if the C3 could begin with 141 CFM, by the time the airflow gets to the power nozzle, you're left with just 109 CFM.
For comparison purposes, my 1987 Kirby Heritage Legend II does 121 CFM and my newer Sentria II does 137 CFM both measured at the nozzle.
Stay tuned for version #2 of the Miele C3 airflow prediction, which I believe to be a more accurate representation of its performance.
Bill
I love a challenge. So it has been claimed that a modern canister can keep up with a modern Kirby. Let's check some possible calculations rather than just making unfounded claims based on things other than airflow.
Miele Complete C3 Cat & Dog
Stated airflow is 141 CFM. This is a motor spec and I'm about 99% sure that is a spec of that very motor running "naked". That is NOT installed in the vacuum itself. If you doubt me, just check the motor specs for the Lux Guardian, rated at 505 Airwatts and 116" of water lift.
What everybody seems to forget is that ALL canisters have a major disadvantage compared to uprights and especially compared to Kirby or any similar machine (i.e. Royal). Please see below:
Kirby airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*ONE*
Typical canister airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*FIVE to SIX*
In addition, canisters have a length of hose and some type of U-bend to redirect the airflow to the base of the power nozzle.
For your examination and comment, please see the best case scenario for the wildly expensive Miele C3. Even if the C3 could begin with 141 CFM, by the time the airflow gets to the power nozzle, you're left with just 109 CFM.
For comparison purposes, my 1987 Kirby Heritage Legend II does 121 CFM and my newer Sentria II does 137 CFM both measured at the nozzle.
Stay tuned for version #2 of the Miele C3 airflow prediction, which I believe to be a more accurate representation of its performance.
Bill
wyaple
Well-known member
Miele Canister Airflow Prediction #2
Here's what my airflow prediction would be for a typical scenario for a Miele C3.
Starting with 141 CFM for the motor not installed in the unit itself.
Dropping 11 CFM to 130 CFM for a canister base measurement.
Dropping 12 CFM to 118 CFM for hose and typical hose curl.
Dropping 20 CFM to 98 CFM for wand and U-joint connections.
Compare to a typical G series Kirby at 120-ish CFM or the improved Sentria II/Avalir at closer to 140 CFM.
So I'm forced to conclude that canisters simply will have less airflow at the nozzle than something similar in an upright. The only way (if I was designing one) that a canister could have dirty air upright airflow would be to have either a much larger hose diameter (think truck mount 2.5" to 3.0") or motors well over 2000 watts.
Bill
Here's what my airflow prediction would be for a typical scenario for a Miele C3.
Starting with 141 CFM for the motor not installed in the unit itself.
Dropping 11 CFM to 130 CFM for a canister base measurement.
Dropping 12 CFM to 118 CFM for hose and typical hose curl.
Dropping 20 CFM to 98 CFM for wand and U-joint connections.
Compare to a typical G series Kirby at 120-ish CFM or the improved Sentria II/Avalir at closer to 140 CFM.
So I'm forced to conclude that canisters simply will have less airflow at the nozzle than something similar in an upright. The only way (if I was designing one) that a canister could have dirty air upright airflow would be to have either a much larger hose diameter (think truck mount 2.5" to 3.0") or motors well over 2000 watts.
Bill
I have to admit I am a little sceptical that a Miele or any other high quality canister will match or even clean better than a Kirby
With airflow at the floor nozzle of around 100 CFM the Miele will clean very well though.
If someone can provide evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it
I do own a Miele S5 and C3 but not with a power nozzle. I would like to get one with the 217 PN but there's not one available in Europe. I think you have the Topaz in the US. I don't know why Miele don't offer this model in Europe. Very annoying! Not everyone wants the full size 228 or 236 PN
With airflow at the floor nozzle of around 100 CFM the Miele will clean very well though.
If someone can provide evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it
I do own a Miele S5 and C3 but not with a power nozzle. I would like to get one with the 217 PN but there's not one available in Europe. I think you have the Topaz in the US. I don't know why Miele don't offer this model in Europe. Very annoying! Not everyone wants the full size 228 or 236 PN
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