Direct air power nozzle

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I understand the problem with the bag clogging but you said motor on one side belt on other. Wouldn't the fan be in the centre of the floor nozzle like it is on the Riccar tandem air uprights? There's a plastic intake with a 90 degree angle that seals against the fan. Doesn't that give an even distribution of airflow across the floorhead?
 
Do canisters produce more airflow and clean better than uprights? Surely a Kirby or Metal Royal would clean better than any canister?
 
My apologies you are correct about the air intake not being evenly distributed across the floor nozzle.

So right now the best combo would be a direct air motor cleaner for use on carpets and a canister cleaner for other jobs.
That's what I have. A Kirby Sentria 2 and a Miele S5 and C3
 
Marcus - Unfortunately, that thinking would be wrong. For the longest time, canisters have been able to hold their own against ANY direct air upright, when they have a new bag installed. The only thing really holding back canisters until now was the bag chamber design & clogging paper bags. Miele has finally solved that problem with the 9 ply Airclean bags. Most of us vac collectors have thought that since the fan is so close to the powerhead on a Kirby or Royal, & because airflow is so important to proper cleaning & how much airflow they produce, that a Kirby or Royal would outclean a canister. Until now.

Reality is, your Miele canisters, when used with the SEB228 or SEB236 pn, will clean every bit as well as your Kirby Sentria II. It's not how close the airflow is to the nozzle that matters. It's how much airflow the motor produces, how evenly that airflow is distributed throughout the powerhead, proper agitation by the powerhead brushroll, & how fast that airflow carries the dirt into the bag that really affects how a vacuum performs. Today's canister vacuum motors are capable of producing HUGE amounts of airflow & waterlift, in some cases they will match central vac performance. That's something direct air uprights will NEVER be able to do, it's a limitation that technology has due to their fan design.

I have a 1992 Kenmore EVPC canister that I put a new motor in, from the Perfect C101 (Electrolux Diamond Jubilee copy), that pulls 125" waterlift. It's strong enough that with a new bag, it will outpower a central vac. That vacuum, if you put it in a head to head challenge with a Kirby Sentria, Avalir or newer Royal Metal, will EASILY match or beat the Kirby or Royal if you did a "big mess test" like Kode1996 does on YouTube.

Rob
 
That is very interesting. I have noticed that the Miele has strong airflow but I didn't think it could match the Kirby.

Maybe I should do the powder under the carpet test with my Miele S5 and see if it will pick it up like the Sentria 2 did.

Do you think the Baird meter is a good test for airflow and what will the Miele score?
 
Marcus,


 


Although I generally agree with Rob on most things, I do not agree with him when it comes to a canister vac out cleaning a Kirby or Royal. First, you need to have a nozzle that seals to the carpet like Kirby or Royal. I don't know of any canister that has a power nozzle that seals to the carpet. I don't care how much waterlift you have, it's airflow and agitation that cleans the carpet! That's why Tacony invented the Volt power nozzle - to increase the normally weak airflow of most canisters. But even the Volt coupled to the best canister vac cannot outclean a Sentria II or Royal Everlast.


 


I believe Rob will chime in and tell you all the reasons he believes I am wrong, but that's okay because it's up to you Marcus, to agree with whomever you feel makes the most sense to you.


 


I would challenge Rob to provide a video that shows a canister outcleaning a Kirby Sentria II or Avalir.


 


 
 
Miele Canister Airflow Prediction #1

I love a challenge. So it has been claimed that a modern canister can keep up with a modern Kirby. Let's check some possible calculations rather than just making unfounded claims based on things other than airflow.

Miele Complete C3 Cat & Dog
Stated airflow is 141 CFM. This is a motor spec and I'm about 99% sure that is a spec of that very motor running "naked". That is NOT installed in the vacuum itself. If you doubt me, just check the motor specs for the Lux Guardian, rated at 505 Airwatts and 116" of water lift.

What everybody seems to forget is that ALL canisters have a major disadvantage compared to uprights and especially compared to Kirby or any similar machine (i.e. Royal). Please see below:

Kirby airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*ONE*

Typical canister airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*FIVE to SIX*

In addition, canisters have a length of hose and some type of U-bend to redirect the airflow to the base of the power nozzle.

For your examination and comment, please see the best case scenario for the wildly expensive Miele C3. Even if the C3 could begin with 141 CFM, by the time the airflow gets to the power nozzle, you're left with just 109 CFM.

For comparison purposes, my 1987 Kirby Heritage Legend II does 121 CFM and my newer Sentria II does 137 CFM both measured at the nozzle.

Stay tuned for version #2 of the Miele C3 airflow prediction, which I believe to be a more accurate representation of its performance.

Bill

wyaple++3-31-2017-19-09-20.jpg
 
Miele Canister Airflow Prediction #2

Here's what my airflow prediction would be for a typical scenario for a Miele C3.

Starting with 141 CFM for the motor not installed in the unit itself.
Dropping 11 CFM to 130 CFM for a canister base measurement.
Dropping 12 CFM to 118 CFM for hose and typical hose curl.
Dropping 20 CFM to 98 CFM for wand and U-joint connections.

Compare to a typical G series Kirby at 120-ish CFM or the improved Sentria II/Avalir at closer to 140 CFM.

So I'm forced to conclude that canisters simply will have less airflow at the nozzle than something similar in an upright. The only way (if I was designing one) that a canister could have dirty air upright airflow would be to have either a much larger hose diameter (think truck mount 2.5" to 3.0") or motors well over 2000 watts.

Bill

wyaple++3-31-2017-19-20-8.jpg
 
I have to admit I am a little sceptical that a Miele or any other high quality canister will match or even clean better than a Kirby
With airflow at the floor nozzle of around 100 CFM the Miele will clean very well though.

If someone can provide evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it 😁

I do own a Miele S5 and C3 but not with a power nozzle. I would like to get one with the 217 PN but there's not one available in Europe. I think you have the Topaz in the US. I don't know why Miele don't offer this model in Europe. Very annoying! Not everyone wants the full size 228 or 236 PN
 
Re Brush and beat

I always thought the Brush and Beat canister used the same head as the upright, it LOOKED the same.....
 
Marcus - If you want to feel how strong your Miele canister's airflow is, hold your hand up to the underside of the rug nozzle. It will surprise you how strong the airflow is, even after going thru the hose & wand.

As for the Baird being a good way to measure airflow? No, I don't think it is. One has to remember that the Baird meter was designed for Kirby salesmen to cheat & show off how strong the Kirby's airflow is while giving a demonstration. It is designed to make the Kirby look good & impress a customer, NOT to be accurate. Bill, my apologies if that offends you, I do appreciate you doing your airflow tests & they are interesting. I just feel that a digital airflow meter would be a better way to measure a vacuum's airflow than the Baird meter would be.

Stan - "I don't know of any canister that has a power nozzle that seals to the carpet". Oh really, eh? Well, I do know two canisters that seal to the carpet. Check out this video of the Plush Pro nozzle on the latest Panasonic canisters, you can CLEARLY see the regular Panasonic PN design sealing to the ultra plush carpeting & impossible to move.
And here's another video that shows a Simplicity Gusto sealing to the ultra plush carpet before adding the adapters to convert it to use on ultra plush. And let's not forget the Wessell Werk EBK360 SoftClean powerhead that was designed specifically because they seal to ultra plush carpeting. The reason you feel that "seal" more when using a Kirby or Royal is because the weight of the motor is pushing the powerhead down into the carpeting, but that doesn't mean a canister isn't capable of sealing to a carpet as well, it's just you don't feel it as much.

Bill - Sorry, but you shouldn't have picked a Miele as your example vacuum to demonstrate your point. The airflow losses you are proposing just aren't realistic, in this case. Today's canisters, for the most part, have done away with buttonlockers for the hose & wand connections, & they have been replaced with clips like the Miele you show. The only ones that use buttonlockers, to my knowledge, are Kenmore/Panasonic canisters & the Riccar Prima/Simplicity Wonder, amongst residential canisters. The reason for this is twofold: 1. To improve indoor air quality & make the canister a sealed filtration system. Now, most canister vacuums, when they say their HEPA Filtration is part of a certified sealed system, it's not just the canister & filter that is sealed, it's the ENTIRE vacuum. It's not just dirty air that can escape around the filter that is an issue, it's also how much dust & dirt the powerhead kicks back up into the air instead of the airflow picking it up & carrying it to the bag & filter system. In addition to the powerhead needing to be sealed & making efficient use of the vacuum's airflow, the wands & hose connections themselves must be sealed, otherwise it will reduce the efficiency of the powerhead if all the airflow doesn't go to it, & any air that escapes from the wand is also dirty air that will escape unfiltered & pollute the room air. It's a issue all the manufacturers are starting to take seriously. Tacony introduced a hose & wand seal for the Prima & Wonder called "Seal Tite", & Electrolux AB has silicone seals around the hose & wand connections as well. Therefore, unlike your second results claim, it is VERY realistic for a modern canister like a Miele to have 120 CFM at the nozzle, & to clean just as well as a Kirby

And as for waterlift not affecting carpet cleaning & airflow & agitation being more important? Again, I disagree there. If you look at a vacuum motor's performance charts, you will see a direct correlation to vacuum motors that have higher waterlift numbers also having high airflow numbers. When viewed on a chart, it's clear that waterlift & airflow CFM rise & fall in correlation to each other. So, in short, if the motor isn't producing high waterlift, it isn't producing high airflow to properly clean.

Rob
 
Rob,

I challenge you to prove me wrong. Really, please prove me wrong. I want to see some airflow numbers from the almighty Mieles please!

And I do use a digital anemomter, a GM8901 in fact. How on Earth do you think I've produced my airflow numbers these last few years?

Oh, and as for the Baird meter being designed to "fake" people out that Kirby has high airflow, here's where you don't understand the TWO ways a Baird can measure airflow.

#1) From the body of a Kirby. Of course a dirty air fan system measured right from the fan intake will show a "10". This measurement can only be done with a modern "G" series machine because of the adapter provided on one end on the tester.

#2) From the end of a hose. Did you know that most newer Kirbys still pull more airflow from the end of their hose than any other vacuum out there? My Sentria II pulls above a "10" (actual 120 CFM measured digitally).

Now, I'm very sorry if I've offended you or anyone else in this forum, but I've read far too many posts that claim completely false things about the Baird meter and I've had just about enough of it! That meter, when plugged into the end of a hose cannot tell what type or brand of machine it's hooked up to. Only in case #1 can someone see a measurement that may or may not be "unfair" to other machines.

Regarding the correlation you claim with high airflow means high water lift, please explain the below:

Kirby Sentria II (dirty air)
Nozzle airflow: 137 CFM
Water lift: 34"

Hoover custom convertible (dirty air)
Nozzle airflow: 107 CFM
Water lift: 25"

Hoover Tempo Widepath (clean air)
Nozzle airflow: 80 CFM
Hose airflow: 106 CFM
Water lift: 80"

Do you see the pathetically low water lift and outrageously high airflow in these two dirty air machines? If you take the airflow and put it through tubing and various other connections, you'd better have more water lift to keep that airflow going or it will drop like a stone, but no matter what you do with a canister type machine that airflow will always be worse than most direct air machines.

Remember, I'm the testing nutjob that built his own airflow box and grabbed an digital anemometer to produce results like this:

wyaple++4-3-2017-20-50-24.jpg
 
Quite contradictory

Doesn't want to offend, yet calls someone a nut job, causes offense. Sublimation that intent was to offend.
 
Well Rob,


 


I was going to point out all the things you got wrong in your post #29 but Bill beat me to it.  It's better that he correct all of your misinformation because he has all of those measurements that he has so painstakingly gathered over time to back him up.


 


Bill, thanks again for creating and updating all of those charts of measurements that I and many other Vacuumlanders have come to refer to time and time again.


 


 
 
It's an interesting debate. I still think the Kirby will have the most airflow along with Royal but a Miele C3 will still have enough airflow to clean carpets very well.
 
Bill - I don't have the exact CFM & waterlift numbers for the Miele C3 canisters right on hand, I will have to do some digging around & see what I can find. But, then again, might I remind you that you yourself claim to know this....after all, it was YOU in your reply posts 25 & 26 that claims to have the actual numbers.

As for your testing & the Baird meter, again I do appreciate your tests & find them interesting. I was not aware you use a digital anemometer in addition to the Baird meter as part of your tests. However, I still do not believe the Baird meter, regardless of how it is used to test a vacuum or which vacuum is being tested, & do not believe it can be relied on as a accurate measuring tool to measure vacuum airflow, & as I said above, it is designed to produce false airflow number designed to make a Kirby look good during a in-home demonstration. It's bad enough, I personally think it should be banned!

Regarding the correlation between high waterlift & high airflow CFM numbers for vacuum motors, & how you need high waterlift to produce high airflow CFM, I was referring directly to clean air vacuum motors, the type used in canisters & clean air uprights. I was NOT referring to direct air motors, as there is hardly any produced anymore, & those that are don't publish those numbers.

Furthermore, the Hoover Tempo & Hoover Convertible you point out as your examples are actually BAD examples, & go to prove even more what I am talking about here. What your testing DOES NOT account for, & this is crucial, is how well the cleaner maintains it's airflow as the bag fills. Regarding direct-air uprights, the ONLY ones that don't drastically lose airflow as the bag fills are ones that have a bell-shaped powerhead, such as Kirby, Royal, & the designs used by GE & others in the 30's & 40's. The other designs....side mounted motor with fan on one side/belt on the other, such as Oreck, Hoover Elite, Eureka Bravo, etc....& bottom mounted fan & belt, such as Eureka F&G & Hoover Convertible, all of them lose their power VERY QUICKLY, with the bag being only 1/4 or 1/3 full before they lose 60 to 70% of the airflow they have. Most bagged clean-air uprights, with some exceptions are just as bad, due to gravity. With the vast majority of them, dirt enters the top of the bag, falls to the bottom, & starts building up on top of the motor vent & pre-motor filter inside the bag, which in turn suffocates the motor & chokes off the airflow, again most having only 60 to 70% airflow left with a bag being only 1/4 or 1/3 full. Canister vacuums, on the other hand, do NOT have this issue, since the bag is on it's side inside the vac, which means they maintain their airflow better than clean-air uprights. Provided the canister in question has a properly designed bag chamber, & HEPA Cloth bags are used, it will outclean a clean-air upright & match the performance of a Kirby or Royal. The only exceptions are bagless uprights, & some newer designs that avoid the bag coming into contact with the pre-motor filter, such as the Kenmore PowerFlow/Panasonic OptiFlow system. Ever wonder WHY Hoover made such a large bag for the Dial-A-Matic, yet they made the actual usable capacity of the bag so small? They knew what impact a filling bag would have on airflow & the vacuum's power to clean properly!

So, Bill, your statement above that a canister vacuum's airflow will be worse than a upright is FALSE! And if you REALLY think your statement is true, then I challenge you to go ahead & take 10 identical uprights, put them in people's homes, have them use them normally as they would to clean otherwise, & then check back in a couple of weeks & test their airflow with partially filled bags. I guarantee if you tested those cleaners with partially filled bags, you wouldn't be so impressed with their performance!

Even your own testing even proves you wrong! In your test results, you show that a 1980 Electrolux Olympia One has a PN CFM density of 3.55, beating out a Kirby Heritage II with 3.33 & a Kirby G6 with 3.54, & coming pretty close to matching a Kirby G5 with 3.69 & Kirby G4 with 3.61. Considering this is isn't even a modern canister vacuum, & has only 85" waterlift, I can only imagine how much better PN CFM a modern Miele, Sebo or Riccar/Simplicity canister would have.

And by the way, my opinion comes from REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. My Mom, when she was alive, had her own cleaning business for over 37 years, & we both cleaned many commercial & residential properties together, & we used pretty much everything available for residential & commercial use. You name it, I have seen & used it!
I'm not just someone with a hobby who decided to "test" things at home, I have REAL experience using both uprights & canisters, & I know what the heck I am talking about! So, let's see your testing reflect results with REAL LIFE test results, & then we'll talk! Maybe next time you'll think before you challenge someone who REALLY knows what they're talking about.

Rob
 
Good points from Rob.

What about the Sebo X series. This has the pre motor filter to the side of the bag. That won't choke off the airflow as the bag fills will it? I always thought that was a good design.
 
Partial Reply #1,

Bill - I don't have the exact CFM & waterlift numbers for the Miele C3 canisters right on hand, I will have to do some digging around & see what I can find. But, then again, might I remind you that you yourself claim to know this....after all, it was YOU in your reply posts 25 & 26 that claims to have the actual numbers.

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That’s funny, I clearly typed “Theoretical” in the upper left hand side of the picture. Did you not see this?
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As for your testing & the Baird meter, again I do appreciate your tests & find them interesting. I was not aware you use a digital anemometer in addition to the Baird meter as part of your tests. However, I still do not believe the Baird meter, regardless of how it is used to test a vacuum or which vacuum is being tested, & do not believe it can be relied on as a accurate measuring tool to measure vacuum airflow, & as I said above, it is designed to produce false airflow number designed to make a Kirby look good during a in-home demonstration. It's bad enough, I personally think it should be banned!

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I have proven the above claim to be patently false in my previous reply. The Baird meter is an excellent tool for comparing hose airflow. Convert a Kirby and test the hose and you’ll see very high numbers. Then hook the Baird to another machine (say a canister) and repeat the test. Compare the results. The Baird meter is accurate and even nearly linear from about 0.5 to and 8.0.

It is only when comparing motor body airflow that the Baird can give difficult to interpret readings. For example, what happens when the disc goes well above a “10”? You can’t really tell or compare what it’s doing because the meter is “maxed out”. And the fact that with the hose adapter removed it can only fit a G series machine.
==============================================================================

Regarding the correlation between high waterlift & high airflow CFM numbers for vacuum motors, & how you need high waterlift to produce high airflow CFM, I was referring directly to clean air vacuum motors, the type used in canisters & clean air uprights. I was NOT referring to direct air motors, as there is hardly any produced anymore, & those that are don't publish those numbers.

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Well it’s a real bummer that there are a few models out there that I have tested that have very high water lift (think bag and bag less uprights) in the 75”-120” range that choose to “waste” their high airflow by forcing it through cyclones and around the power head to make the vacuum easier to push.
==============================================================================

Rob,

Stay tuned for part 2 where I put up some test results regarding HEPA bag airflow losses. I had to break up my responses into two parts due to text character limitations.

Bill
 
Partial Reply #2

Furthermore, the Hoover Tempo ...

So, Bill, your statement ...

*See Rob's Original Text Above *

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You’re in luck! I have done such tests! I will publish them here I believe for the first time.

Cloth HEPA Bag Losses (Same dirt type in all three bags of course)

Hoover Tempo Widepath (Crucial HEPA Bag)
0% full = 114 CFM (Body) and 106 CFM (Hose)
50% full = 97 CFM (Body) and 90 CFM (Hose)
100% full = 99 CFM (Body) and 91 CFM (Hose) <-No, those numbers are not a mistake, dirt can shift in the bag slightly affecting results by a percent or two.

Electrolux Olympia One (Perfect HEPA Bag, new vinyl hose)
0% full = 102 CFM (Body) and 85 CFM Hose
50% full = 85 CFM (Body) and I don’t have the hose measurement handy
100% full = 87 CFM (Body) and 79 CFM Hose

Kirby Heritage II Legend (Kirby HEPA Bag, new Amodel fan installed)
0% full = 161 CFM (Body) and 105 CFM (Hose)
75% full = 141 CFM (Body) and 105 CFM (Hose)
100% full = Didn’t perform formal measurements but quick check yielded no appreciable additional losses. It’s the reader’s choice if this would be believable or not.

Full Bag (Kirby 75%) Body RESULTS:
#1 with probably a few CFM less than this is the Kirby at <141 CFM
#2 with 99 CFM is the Hoover Tempo
#3 with 87 CFM is the Electrolux

Full Bag (Kirby 75%) Hose RESULTS:
#1 with probably a few CFM less than this is the Kirby at <105 CFM
#2 with 91 CFM is the Hoover Tempo
#3 with 79 CFM is the Electrolux
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