Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
This is addressed here
Dyson Piston
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Vacuum Facts
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You're saying so little you should be a mime.
cheesewonton
Well-known member
Lol. What a coward you are ! Test some high end bagged vacuums. Put up or shut up. You know nothing about what makes a great vacuum great and won't until you actually use some great bagged vacuums. There is a whole new world of high quality vacuums out there you know nothing about.
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
Not a convincing argument at all. The onus is on you to justify why you think they're great and do the education. That's lazy. If you think a Kirby isn't a high end bagged vacuum, go let the kirby fans know. Report on the flesh wounds you receive. Same for the Sebo Felix or the Henry I reviewed.
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cheesewonton
Well-known member
The vacuum sub on Reddit is a long litany of users complaining about the low quality, frequent failures and lack of spare parts for Dyson and Shark vacuums.
I will be the first to point out that the sub is populated by too many Sebo, Miele and Simplicity dealers pushing their brand ( notice the logo for that sub is a Sebo logo with the word Sebo replaced by Reddit ) but the user complaints are real. Lots of people believe the marketing nonsense from those two brands, buy them thinking they are somehow high end vacuums but they are not. Fragile brittle plastics that break when used hard, brush rolls that melt when used for a prolonged period of time on American style carpets ( not a problem I guess for a battery powered stick vac but something you see often with the corded models ) and despite your claims in real life with real users who probably don't maintain their vacuums the way you or I would, they get clogged and loose their cleaning power. Many come to the sub for advice and don't even know brands like Miele, Sebo, Aerus or Lindhaus even exist.
Countless times at the local vac shop I have watched the shop owner patiently explain to a repair customer who brought in a Shark or Dyson not to use it for more than an hour or the brush roll will melt. Turn it off and let it cool. The guy is patient and probably should be sainted ! I have watched him explain how to prevent their Shark or Dyson from clogging. People buy these things on line and have no idea how to use them properly. Then they end up in my friend's shop needing work. But you talk to them and they hate working on them because everything is cheaply made and not made to be repaired. Because the plastics are so brittle and they are not intended to be repaired shop techs have to be super careful fearing they will break the vacuum trying to repair it. Cheap self threading screw holes that can strip out, snap tabs that break easily and no spares in case something breaks. Working on them is a nail biter! The high end European and American vacuums are more durable, most use wooden brush rolls that don't melt, and were designed to be easy to repair. You can change a brush roll on any Sebo or Lindhaus with no tools and not disturb the lifetime belt. They have easy to access clean out ports if you do manage to clog one. Sebo uprights have screw holes with steel threaded inserts and they use machine screws instead of self threading screws. It is high quality features like that which set Sebo and the other apart from a cheaply made Shark or Dyson.
But you don't know any of this because you have no hands on with them. Get some experience with quality vacuums.
herbicide
Well-known member
- Overall Build quality/ruggedness. (main intent demonstrated on reddit link) I am not going to go item by item here. You can specifically pick some out if you like...
- V15 Performance on "soft" carpet: a) can't use max mode because it clamps down & stalls (no matter where the slider is set) b) When in auto/medium mode it leaves noticeable debris behind (mainly pet hair) no matter where slider is set. (ahem, just like above, at the 15:20 mark in the video, I have the same issue(s)...) Can't get anymore specific than that.
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
OK, too vague to comment so I'll ignore that one.
a) This is a failure of understanding. The user lacks the knowledge and seemingly the intelligence that with strong suction on high resistance carpets, head pressure drops, increasing clamping force. The solution is to directly reduce suction pressure by lowering the motor power, or to allow in bleed relief air (more airflow) via the gates to reduce suction pressure to nearer normal levels. As explained in the lecture, this also doesn't impair cleaning performance. So this was a demonstration of incredible ignorance more than anything.
b) Again, user stupidity. If you're dumb enough to put so much dirt down that it's clearly visible to the naked eye and then briefly go over it once—even lifting it off the floor surreptitiously on the backwards pull in a dodgy manner you'd only expect the most repulsive charlatans to, it's not surprising it left stuff behind. This was a wonderful example of the kind of BS I criticise out there. Poor testing, deeply flawed, unquantified, doesn't capture trends, easy to trick people, unconvincing to the educated and intelligent.
If this is what you're using to justify I'm in the wrong somehow, then that's wonderful for us all to see, since it clearly exonerates me from a false charge. Thanks for the future reference link at least.
cheesewonton
Well-known member
Justification? How about superior materials and workmanship, vastly better build quality, superior agitation, superior attachments ( except Miele which has really crummy attachments ), and in the case of the Lux 1R D820 in particular more suction and airflow than just about any vacuum I have ever tested. You don't know what a powerful vacuum is until you have tried a D820 ( built before the ridiculous EU 900 watt limit ). Sebo and Lindhaus allow brush roll changes with no tools and the belt is not disturbed. That is a real advantage. And you can get replacements easily. I would also argue that Miele, Lindhaus and Lux have vastly better filtration than Dyson or Shark. Also test a Lux S115 Intelligence, the D820s replacement. A bit more fragile than its predecessors but a nice to use and beautifully made vacuum with great power and superb filtration.
Further justification, in North America the Aerus Legacy and Aerus Classic have been in production since 1992 and 1984 respectively. Motors, model names and colors have changed over time as has the name of the manufacturer but not much else. 30 - 40 year old examples still in regular use are not uncommon. Vacuums that have cleaned people's homes longer than you have been alive. The durability of Electrolux ( Swedish and American ) and Aerus vacuums is legendary. Everything about them is better made and works better than a Dyson or Shark.
If you were in North America I would tell you to test a Kenmore 600 Series, either the BC4026 or the 81614 version ( they are identical except the color, the former is blue and the latter is purple ). It has the highest airflow of any vacuum I have tested and the old Kenmore Powermate power nozzle is an industry best. Wooden brush rolls that never overheat and melt like Dyson and Shark ( and sadly also Miele ). Durable and quiet poly v-belt drive. Bags and filters that meet the US DoE HEPA standard, not the less strict EU H-13 standard. Metal wands, not the cheap plastic wands you get with a Dyson.
It is not all about fancy charts. A vacuum or any appliance has to be usable. The user interface matters. Durability matters. Ease of repair and availability of parts matters. Quietness matters. Filtration matters. The whole package has to work in harmony to clean the user's home.
herbicide
Well-known member
Well sir you just called me stupid twice (sorry, actually three times), ignorant once, dumb once, incredibly ignorant, and (my personal favorite) "repulsive charlatan" once... And you have the audacity to expect people to be listen to what you spout?
Is in your world vague = "I have no counter so I will ignore?"
A.) First off, I don't need a lesson in physics... You obviously didn't comprehend, I noted that it doesn't clamp on medium/auto mode, but in said mode it leaves behind debris, namely dog hair. Therefore, it does IN FACT effect cleaning performance, despite your claims. There is a solution, it is to go over the same area multiple times (repeat passes, not just down and back), where the 'other' vacuum does not need to do repeated passes for the same results.
B.) You are out of your mind if you think I am purposely 'putting dirt down.' Nor am I, as you so eloquently put it:
This is a normal use case, I would even argue on the lighter side of things for families. Secondly, it is not generally *visible*, never claimed that. You can however 'feel' it with bare feet, 'pull samples with your fingers,' and also on the occasional extractor/shampooer use, the extractor would build hair clumps when pre-vacuuming with V15. It does NOT build up these hair clumps when pre-vacuuming with the more powerful corded unit.
cheesewonton
Well-known member
OK, too vague to comment so I'll ignore that one.
Afraid to see what a high quality vacuum looks and feels like, eh? The crummy build quality of Dyson and Shark vacuums, the fragile brittle plastics, crummy filters and lousy brush rolls are the crux of the matter. They are low quality junk. Instead of running in fear try testing the best and find out all the things you don't know. It is literally the only way you will be taken seriously here.
Afraid to see what a high quality vacuum looks and feels like, eh? The crummy build quality of Dyson and Shark vacuums, the fragile brittle plastics, crummy filters and lousy brush rolls are the crux of the matter. They are low quality junk. Instead of running in fear try testing the best and find out all the things you don't know. It is literally the only way you will be taken seriously here.
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
I'll leave you to evidence those and the rest of the claims ...like that's ever happened...
This wasn't directed at herbicide, although it is interesting that you've inferred that. Are you telling us that the alias herbicide is also vacuumdevil aka performance reviews? It would explain a lot, including the trolling and incoherence. Why all the pseudonyms?
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
I'm happy to review your actual evidence convincingly showing this. All I get is words though and weak reasoning.
herbicide
Well-known member
You asked for specifics. I gave you MY specific use case and trials, because YOU insisted upon specifics. Then resort to insults, then continue to pile them on. Who the heck else would you be referring to in YOUR response to ME?
No sir, you have insulted me, once again.
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
Your specifics have been assessed and answered. The charge against me has no merit based on this. The criticisms were directed at the sources you cited not you; I suggest you re-read with that in mind. Quite how you got confused is unclear. Quite why you get offended is stranger; either you're selectively hypersensitive, or are playing the offense card to deflect from the absurdity of the citations and thus charge. I think I'm done with this.
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herbicide
Well-known member
Answered? Sure, answered with nothing.
Charge has no merit? What planet do you live on, your previous words speak for themselves.
Offended and hypersensitive? You are the one spewing undue insults, in response to polite neutral answers to questions YOU asked.
What you are doing here is a classic example of gaslighting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
cheesewonton
Well-known member
a) This is a failure of understanding. The user lacks the knowledge and seemingly the intelligence that with strong suction on high resistance carpets, head pressure drops, increasing clamping force. The solution is to directly reduce suction pressure by lowering the motor power, or to allow in bleed relief air (more airflow) via the gates to reduce suction pressure to nearer normal levels. As explained in the lecture, this also doesn't impair cleaning performance. So this was a demonstration of incredible ignorance more than anything.
You are wrong on that point. Variable power controls on vacuums are relatively recent and far from universal. I was a grown adult when the very first vacuums with variable power showed up circa 1982. Before that vacuums ran at full power all the time. And even today if you buy a high end upright from Sebo, Lindhaus, Aerus, Cirrus, Titan, Carpet Pro or similar, they are all single speed. Full power all the time. Same for power nozzle canisters. Many modern canister vacuums are sold with single speed motors. Patriot, Aerus Legacy and Classic, Kenmore 200 Series, Miracle Mate come immediately to mind. No turning the power down for carpets. In our home with our dirt and pet hair on our carpets with the few vacuums we have that offer a variable power control I have to turn the power up to clean adequately.
But what you find in common on premium vacuums for the US market, and traditional old American vacuums ( and Panasonics before they left the North American market ) are durable wooden or steel brush rolls. Those never warp or melt from heat. The belt will get way too hot to touch but nothing melts. They were designed for the kind of severe use typical of an American home that the likes of Dyson and Shark cannot begin to meet and that many Europeans do not begin to understand. Our homes are not like those I saw in UK, Netherlands, Germany, Austria or Italy when I was traveling. Crappy plastic brush rolls might be ok in a cordless stick vac that has maybe 20-30 minutes of battery run time on hard floors or the small thin area rugs I saw in Europe but not on a corded vacuum in an American home where a vacuum might run a couple of hours non stop vacuuming our thick wall to wall carpets.
You are wrong on that point. Variable power controls on vacuums are relatively recent and far from universal. I was a grown adult when the very first vacuums with variable power showed up circa 1982. Before that vacuums ran at full power all the time. And even today if you buy a high end upright from Sebo, Lindhaus, Aerus, Cirrus, Titan, Carpet Pro or similar, they are all single speed. Full power all the time. Same for power nozzle canisters. Many modern canister vacuums are sold with single speed motors. Patriot, Aerus Legacy and Classic, Kenmore 200 Series, Miracle Mate come immediately to mind. No turning the power down for carpets. In our home with our dirt and pet hair on our carpets with the few vacuums we have that offer a variable power control I have to turn the power up to clean adequately.
But what you find in common on premium vacuums for the US market, and traditional old American vacuums ( and Panasonics before they left the North American market ) are durable wooden or steel brush rolls. Those never warp or melt from heat. The belt will get way too hot to touch but nothing melts. They were designed for the kind of severe use typical of an American home that the likes of Dyson and Shark cannot begin to meet and that many Europeans do not begin to understand. Our homes are not like those I saw in UK, Netherlands, Germany, Austria or Italy when I was traveling. Crappy plastic brush rolls might be ok in a cordless stick vac that has maybe 20-30 minutes of battery run time on hard floors or the small thin area rugs I saw in Europe but not on a corded vacuum in an American home where a vacuum might run a couple of hours non stop vacuuming our thick wall to wall carpets.
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
There's enough information here for the many lurkers to make their own minds up. I'm adding nothing else now.
I'm not quite sure what you think I'm wrong on. Incidentally, this assumes no leaks from inferior head designs. Basic science all covered in places presented you've never looked
cheesewonton
Well-known member
This is a failure of understanding. The user lacks the knowledge and seemingly the intelligence that with strong suction on high resistance carpets, head pressure drops, increasing clamping force. The solution is to directly reduce suction pressure by lowering the motor power, or to allow in bleed relief air (more airflow) via the gates to reduce suction pressure to nearer normal levels. As explained in the lecture, this also doesn't impair cleaning performance. So this was a demonstration of incredible ignorance more than anything.
You are wrong on that point.
I'm not quite sure what you think I'm wrong on. Incidentally, this assumes no leaks from inferior head designs. Basic science all covered in places presented you've never looked
The solution is not to turn the power down but to get some air under the nose of the nozzle. Peak under the nose of most Kenmore, Panasonic, old US Electrolux ( now Aerus ), old Singer Twin Fan and modern Commercial Hoover uprights and canister power nozzles. You will see the noses of the nozzle base are serrated to let air get underneath. You want air moving under there. Panasonic even designed a really cool power nozzle that is now made by Suzhou Cleva Electric Appliance Co Ltd for sale by Kenmore, Titan and Cen-Tec Systems that Kenmore calls the Ultra Plus Nozzle ( Panasonic called it Plush Pro when sold with their house brand vacuums ). Cen-Tec calls it the CT-25. This nozzle was designed to address latching on the increasingly plush deep pile carpets popular in North America and the necessity of using high power settings or central vacuums to clean them. It has reed valves on top of the body that feed small air vents positioned right in front of the brush roll. If the nozzle starts to latch due to high suction the reed valves are pulled open, drawing air in and under the nose. These nozzles are effortless to push, and clean carpets very well. You want to have air getting in under the nose to move the dirt up out of the carpet and into the airstream to the hose and dust bag.
In decades past vac shops accomplished much the same thing with power nozzles that had a flat metal sole plate ( Eureka and Tristar for example ) by drilling a line of small holes across the front edge of the sole plate right in front of the nozzle opening. Tristar even started to make their 2-1000 power nozzles that way from the factory. Sebo recently started to do the same on one of their upright vacuums. What's old is new again ! But it works.
You are wrong on that point.
I'm not quite sure what you think I'm wrong on. Incidentally, this assumes no leaks from inferior head designs. Basic science all covered in places presented you've never looked
The solution is not to turn the power down but to get some air under the nose of the nozzle. Peak under the nose of most Kenmore, Panasonic, old US Electrolux ( now Aerus ), old Singer Twin Fan and modern Commercial Hoover uprights and canister power nozzles. You will see the noses of the nozzle base are serrated to let air get underneath. You want air moving under there. Panasonic even designed a really cool power nozzle that is now made by Suzhou Cleva Electric Appliance Co Ltd for sale by Kenmore, Titan and Cen-Tec Systems that Kenmore calls the Ultra Plus Nozzle ( Panasonic called it Plush Pro when sold with their house brand vacuums ). Cen-Tec calls it the CT-25. This nozzle was designed to address latching on the increasingly plush deep pile carpets popular in North America and the necessity of using high power settings or central vacuums to clean them. It has reed valves on top of the body that feed small air vents positioned right in front of the brush roll. If the nozzle starts to latch due to high suction the reed valves are pulled open, drawing air in and under the nose. These nozzles are effortless to push, and clean carpets very well. You want to have air getting in under the nose to move the dirt up out of the carpet and into the airstream to the hose and dust bag.
In decades past vac shops accomplished much the same thing with power nozzles that had a flat metal sole plate ( Eureka and Tristar for example ) by drilling a line of small holes across the front edge of the sole plate right in front of the nozzle opening. Tristar even started to make their 2-1000 power nozzles that way from the factory. Sebo recently started to do the same on one of their upright vacuums. What's old is new again ! But it works.
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
Both achieve a reduction in head pressure. Reducing motor power is more efficient and less wasteful when possible. You can run through the basic maths yourself.
I understand the design of the machines you reference. Air that bypasses the carpet fibres from leak valves is not involved in acceleration of particles within the pile and therefore energetically wasteful. I presume you have no cleaning data trends. I mean, I can only direct you to the lecture as there's much you need to learn. If you don't agree, then just end the conversation and there's nothing else I'd want to add if you're not interesting in learning the science.
herbicide
Well-known member
While it is pedantic, since you love to take that liberty with others, it raises the head pressure, it doesn't reduce it. (reduction in pressure means stronger vacuum)
Leak valves, like these manually controlled leak valves on the various Dyson heads? They are somewhat in the right place, but assuming the law of path of least resistance for flow, they are only going to increase air velocity along a narrow path. (Yes it is better than some other leak valve designs)
Vacuum Facts
Well-known member
Yes; useful for large particle pickup. But there's a more complex air circuit present. The speed of the air portion through the pile, distinct from that through the gates, is controlled by the suction, so when this is reduced by any leaks or gaps, the speed reduces, imparting lower forces and thus reduced acceleration of particles within it. It's all in the lecture. The front gates have value—namely on hard floor where air resistance is maximal and there is near total loss of flow otherwise, or to avoid snowploughing (on predominantly hard flooring), but are a waste of energy on carpet that offers very high air resistance, since the same suction reduction and relatively increased head pressure to avoid clamping is also achieved by turning the motor power consumption down. All in the lecture.
herbicide
Well-known member
The bolded part is key, and IMO with one exception or clarification is the only thing that really matters. Yes that is in your lecture but is not stated clearly (IMO) "The speed of the air portion through the pile." More specifically, the speed of the air upon the dirt/dust particles.
The one exception or clarification is dirt particles that become agitated and removed/suspended from the pile. If there is no airflow to capture and remove these particles they can simply fall back into the pile. If the dirt is found outside of the pile due to agitation; an infinite amount of airflow at the pile will not remove any dirt if no dirt exists at said pile.
For hard surfaces the concept is essentially the same, just trade the "pile" for the "surface."
I've stated my
cheesewonton
Well-known member
V-F, speed and airflow have an inverse relationship on a vacuum cleaner. Look at an airflow chart for any vacuum motor made and you will see that as airflow increases, suction decreases. If you graph airflow and suction against orifice size you see as you go from a closed orifice where suction is maximum and airflow is zero, as the orifice increases suction falls and airflow increases. Where they cross is the point where you have the most cleaning power and where calculated air watts are maximized. It is no coincidence that vacuum motors are designed to achieve their best combination of airflow and suction somewhere between 3/4 of an inch and 1 inch, which is the size orifice most vacuums have to work through with normal attachments on the hose end, or a normal hose from the bag chamber to the nozzle of an upright.
This is why I keep saying it is not one or the other. There needs to be a balance of both suction and airflow, along with good agitation to move the dirt up out of the carpet and suspend it in the airflow so it gets removed.
Here is an Ametek Product Bulletin for a popular two stage skeleton frame motor that has been used in countless vacuums and dog driers over several decades. A very close cousin powered upteen Kenmore Whispertones over the years along with Miracle Mates and Metrovacs.
https://ca.rs-online.com/m/d/471ef6...g9Ufo38ItHKuADsz6vjDvwM9V0-EdZSOZHQabivI1Je2I
This is why I keep saying it is not one or the other. There needs to be a balance of both suction and airflow, along with good agitation to move the dirt up out of the carpet and suspend it in the airflow so it gets removed.
Here is an Ametek Product Bulletin for a popular two stage skeleton frame motor that has been used in countless vacuums and dog driers over several decades. A very close cousin powered upteen Kenmore Whispertones over the years along with Miracle Mates and Metrovacs.
https://ca.rs-online.com/m/d/471ef6...g9Ufo38ItHKuADsz6vjDvwM9V0-EdZSOZHQabivI1Je2I
cheesewonton
Well-known member
Here is a link to an image of one of the all time great power nozzles. Notice how many notches are in the nose of the nozzle base to let air get in under the rotating brush. Note the two deep side channels that angle in from the front corners. The wooden brush roll is durable and never overheats, warps or melts. Height adjustment is passive, the rear wheels are spring loaded. This is a design that dates to 1985 or 86 and continues in production to this day. Great designs never die.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/I-4AAeSwbGRpERPK/s-l1600.webp
cheesewonton
Well-known member
Here is an image of the newly released bottom plate for the Sebo X7. You can see three air holes in front. This is new, designed to prevent the nozzle from latching by letting some air in under the rotating brush, a change necessitated by the deeper pile plush carpets becoming more popular in the US. Sebo ET-1 power nozzle already had this feature for a while. Earlier sole plates for Sebo G and X series uprights are solid, no holes. Most Sebo uprights are single speed btw. The Felix and one upright with a "Turbo" feature are the exceptions. Everything else is single speed, full power all the time.
https://s.turbifycdn.com/aah/yhst-76587561205955/sebo-x7-front-bottom-plate-50404gser-19.gif
https://s.turbifycdn.com/aah/yhst-76587561205955/sebo-x7-front-bottom-plate-50404gser-19.gif
cheesewonton
Well-known member
Here is the old school remedy for power nozzles latching on deep pile carpets for vacuums that are single speed like Compact and Tristar. Drill a line of holes in the nose of the sole plate. Tristar eventually started making them this way. This is the inspiration for the holes in the Sebo sole plate.
Turning the power down when the carpet is deep is the wrong choice. All wrong. Get some air under the nozzle !
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QrcAAeSwTuBo5Um3/s-l1600.jpg
Turning the power down when the carpet is deep is the wrong choice. All wrong. Get some air under the nozzle !
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QrcAAeSwTuBo5Um3/s-l1600.jpg
centralsweeper63
Well-known member
VacuumFacts, turning down the suction reduces cleaning performance. I see so many dysons in for service compared to sebos or kirbys or even an electrolux. If you say dysons are the best and very durable while saying those who repair them, are wrong, fix one yourself to prove it. A vacuum is thrown around and used until it is dead. Dyson can't handle hat others can. Verysimple.
cheesewonton
Well-known member
cheesewonton
Well-known member
Another tactic used on this Electrolux ( the Swedish Electrolux ) nozzle is to pull air in from the sides. Notice the deep notches on each side of the nozzle opening. Also note the brush roll design. Beautiful nozzle.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/O70AAeSwh9RpDn8I/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/O70AAeSwh9RpDn8I/s-l1600.jpg
centralsweeper63
Well-known member
What power nozzle is that?
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