WHAT WOULD life be like with out bagless vacuum's

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It's not TTI's fault...

"TTI may have ended up being the world leader in modern vacs - how about that for a scary thought? TTI do not do quality. End of. "


 


Madabouthoovers:  TTI builds vacuums to the retailer's specifications. Walmart, Target and Argos in the UK tell TTI  they want cheap bagless vacuums that will last only 2-3 years so that the consumer will need to purchase a new vacuum every 2-3 years. TTI is very capable of manufacturing a quality well made vacuum. TTI does manufacture the <span style="font-size: 18pt;">All Metal</span> <span style="font-size: 18pt;">Royal</span> upright vacuums that are built to last a long time. So you see the blame actually goes to the large chain retail stores.
 
It is true that virtually nobody "treats vacuums the way collectors do," but at the same time teaching the general public that they no longer have to buy bags also leads owners into thinking they don't have to clean filters. This ideology of allowing the owner to become lazy isn't good at all. In turn it lets them believe that a big warranty cheaply priced vacuum is just as good as the old traditional bagged variety.

That's the reality, not the fantasy.
 
we'd still have bagless,

Without Dyson' s cyclonic action. We have rainbow and filter-queen for that. But remember HOOVER'S first attempt at bagless? They stuck a bagless tank on an Elite. Still a lot better than modern bagless, as long as the filter was kept clean! I own examples in Maroon, fusion purple, and transparent green. From there they would've became bypass, and from there would come the copycats!


 


Tom, you're right about the Regina housekeeper. But what other failures of vacuums came from American ingenuity? Not many. America is a lasting symbol of taking pride in your work and doing it right. Such a quality is hardly seen in products today. Anyone remember the Plymouth roadrunner, or the Ford pinto? Both were SUPER American, but had there faults. The Plymouth had so much power, it was known to TWIST it's chassis! The pinto is remembered for it's history of fuel tank explosions (should you ever find yourself in one, don't let somebody ram you in the back!). The American story is one of many successes and errors, let us not forget!


 


I hate to say it, but without Dyson there would be no Fantom! Could you imagine such a quality, Canadian built vacuum NEVER existing?
 
"<a name="start_25245.283804"></a>It's not TTI's fault...




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...TTI builds vacuums to the retailer's specifications. ....TTI does manufacture the <span style="font-size: 18pt;">All Metal</span> <span style="font-size: 18pt;">Royal</span> upright vacuums that are built to last a long time. So you see the blame actually goes to the large chain retail stores."


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<strong>This is very true. China builds stuff to an agreed price point. If a retailer wants to pay $5-10 for product in mass quantities, China manufacturers will build it at that price point.</strong>


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<strong><strong><strong>I also agree about the abominable American vaccums of a couple of decades ago. When I worked as a janitor, one of our teachers brought in her Regina Housekeeper (yes in pink), and asked me to look at it and see what's wrong. I told her it was just a lousy vacuum and to toss it (she did). They were truly junk.</strong></strong></strong>


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<strong><strong><strong><strong><strong>The Dirt Devils of that era always amazed me. How could a machine spew so much dust when it truly picked up so little?</strong></strong></strong></strong></strong>


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It's not even the big box stores fault. In the end, consumer drive the market and most consumers want cheap and expect to throw away most appliances in 1-2 years and buy another. Changing bags and filters is so last century and the idea of washing one or more filters and waiting for them to dry is just too much to comprehend.


 


Every time I sell an Aerus to a younger person, they are amazed that it will last for decades with very little maintenance. Change a bag when the machine shuts off and filters every year or so and if they will do the math, they begin to understand the thrift and frugality that their grandparents knew, buy right - buy once and over time the seemingly expensive purchase is actually quite a bit cheaper. Especially for those who have purchased top dollar Dyson's that barely made it through the warranty period or were too much trouble to have repaired and left a whole bunch of dirt in the carpet.


 


Dyson has made quality products in the past. My DC07 has always been a dependable machine... it's been demoted to garage/car duty for the most part mostly because I hate the dust storm that cleaning the bin creates. However my DC14 has been nothing but a pain in the ass from day one. More than a dozen clutches replaced under warranty, 7 in the first 9 months and pieces have broken off here and there. Newer ones flex too much and in some cases even break the seal to the bin and at other joins in the plastic.  Dyson did revolutionize the vacuum industry and has made serious coin off of a brilliant marketing effort. My only vacuum regret is letting go of my Fantom Thunder 17 years ago when it was incredibly difficult to source parts, especially the HEPA filters locally and by mail order they were approaching $100 and I just couldn't see it. Of course I saw the error of my thinking about 2 days too late, when I could not find any vacuum that cleaned as well without going to the DTD vendors which I could not afford at the time.
 
In the UK Argos and other franchises are not led by what the actual consumer wants in FLOORCARE. This is learnt very easily by watching The Apprentice on TV where new inventions that the teams have to put together in some of the tasks are sold to the board of directors in charge of companies such as Argos, John Lewis etc. All the big brands judge by sales first and foremost before they make their move.

After all, if consumers wanted bagged vacuums, Argos and Currys could sell ALL BRANDS concerned. But they only sell a few for cylinder vacs and very few for uprights. Oreck and SEBO are no longer sold at Argos or Currys because in general, the perception of both these high street franchises (and I hate to say it) aren't that premium.

If a product exists already or offers something slightly new from the old then brands such as Currys, Argos and John Lewis may consider it. Or if it is a product from say, SEBO who are represented by John Lewis for example, then JL would normally "carry it" for a term to judge what the sales are like from a small representative figure.

Argos and Currys are in no rush to sell bagged uprights. But by having advertising by Dyson and others in-store, it's a no brainer to see why.
 
Actually, they are interested and do stock what the consumer wants. Your own post proves it - sales drive what is stocked and sold. If consumers didn't by the dreck on offer, the selection would shift to what they do buy.  Profit drives corporate decisions and consumers provide that profit. It works the same in every market. Notwithstanding the above, clever marketing can and will change consumer perception and therefore influence purchases. Consumers want to believe what the read and see and often do, whether backed by their own experience or not. Even when shown the marketing is manipulating those perceptions, they will cling to them rather than believe they could be manipulated. That is human nature and that is what marketing relies upon.
 
Yes but you're in the USA. You have more brands and models than we do in the UK. Marketing and sales are all very well, but the UK buyer wants cheap appliances. Argos and others have catered well for that niche, with virtually everything produced in China at cheap cost. Of course there is premium "made in China" products but they can be expensive to buy...

The premium end dominated by Miele just about gets sales in Argos, but they don't have the full line up and some models are based on older, heavier units that are also sold online with catalogues.

Bosch, SEBO and Miele should, by all accounts be offered with different variants, as they are at our more premium high street franchise, John Lewis - but no other department store offers as many models.

Since the average consumer takes home between £1200 to £2000 a month in wages, not much after the tax, the amenities and the cost of living can buy a mere appliance that will clean up after the household. The cheaper the better for most UK consumers and if they can afford premium, they will want a variety to choose from.
 
Also, there is a hefty mark up on several, different floorcare brands - look at Oreck in the UK. Their uprights for the elderly market probably see sales but at £400 a piece, no thanks.

Miele vacs are also overpriced, helped along by the spin and marketing that Miele also provide. YOu can see the differences right across the board with independent sellers, Miele UK's website and the big box stores.
 
So many of these statements are true!!!!!

NOBODY really does treat vacuums like collectors do. THey weren't 'made to collect', either. WE take care of things. A lot of people don't. How many times have you 'rescued a vacuum from the trash" to find a full bag or a broken belt, or a clogged filter, that's all that was wrong with them. For those who dare to touch trash vacs.

Look at the old metal Convertibles. Some were beaten to death. And, after careful work, could be brought back to life. It merely took longer for them to become disgusting because they were made so well in the first place. You can have for a plastic base Convertible and have it forever if you take proper care of it. Look at those old Royals, Kirbys, etc. They were/are workhorses. They'll last forever if properly cared for.
I'm not bashing TTI.... not bowing down to them, either... another story, another time.
Mr. Dick Pike (HOOVER Windtunnel fame) told me HIMSELF, in his own home, of the discussions/bullying with Walmart, etc. I stood in the factory where all of those HOOVER bags were made. The quality control was EXTRAORDINARY!!!!!!! How many people snap open a dirtcup, dump it, letting dust fly everywhere, and, then return it to the cleaner? How many people CANNOT properly change a HOOVER "C", "A" bag? i've been doing it all my life. Does dust "fly through my house'? No. It all comes down to: SOME people will never be happy. Some would rather be 'right' than happy. MY opinion about "How would the world be without bagless vacuums?" "BETTER".
 
We are saying the same thing - I just wish the UK got a lot more of the brands that the U.S have. In turn Miele in the U.S should sell far more accessories instead of "level pegging" machines with specific features and then pricing them accordingly.

These are the things that we collectors realise - you can custom build your own Miele Cat and Dog model and then sell it on if you wish - it just doesn't have to have the same graphics on the body to justify it!
 
I hear you, even in the US, where we have a abundance of choice, we really have few options... I'd rather pick this body, that hose, a specific power nozzle and other attachments I want... we can, in some cases 'upgrade' power nozzles but little else. I personally hate most of Miele's attachments, love the canister and the SEB236 Power nozzle, but I'd rather not have most of the 'toy' attachments that are standard - they are just too small for practical use. At least Miele give you some choices, not many others do. You buy a box and get what you get.
 
Since Dyson has dominated the UK market, there just doesn't seem to be much appetite to compete with him. Only TTI can be bothered, and they only compete on price, not quality. The UK is in desperate need of quality machines that last more than a few months. Many people fail to register the warranty on their TTI machine within 30 days of purchase and are then left high and dry when it packs up after a few months. This is why we see so many TTI machines on ebay that are not even a year old, for spares or repairs.


The other thing that I wonder about is that people buy a Miele vacuum, then moan about the price of the bags and filters (even I do sometimes). These people then buy the cheapest, nastiest bags on the market to use in their brand new S6, S8 machines, and then when the HEPA filter starts popping out of its housing in use, and forces the lid up, they moan about it like its the machine's fault, when all that's happened is that the cheap bags have let too much dirt through them and its clogged the HEPA filter very quickly. IE, they haven't followed the manufacturers instructions about using only genuine Miele bags.


So its not just bagless machines that people cant seem to look after, its bagged too, and all because they are too tight fisted to buy the proper parts for their new vacs, or they cant be bothered to maintain them.


Its like this - would you buy a brand new BMW, and then use inferior and cheap engine oil in it? Or put remoulded tyres on it? If so, why not just buy a cheap car and put cheap oil in it?


Its the same with Miele - if you don't want to buy the genuine bags and filters - why not just buy a cheap £30 bagged canister from Argos, then throw it away when it burns out after 6 months of using inferior bags?
 
I could not agree more with your statement John. 


 


The truth is, nobody can say 100% truthfully what may have been if Mr. Dyson hadn't came out of the woodwork in 1993, but lets face it - we all here know enough about the vacuum cleaner industry to have a fair idea that things would be a hell of a lot better.


 


Even if you are of the very few who believe that bagless cleaners per se were a good invention, what they did to bagless cleaners by consequence outweighed any benefits in my opinion.


 


Aside from everything else, I truly believe that bagless vacuum cleaners killed the very few domestic dirty fan machines still available in the 1990s.  That is purely my view and I have nothing to back it up, but there you go.


 


 


 


 


 


 


 
 
The UK does have quality machines - people just won't pay out for it.

Similarly with BMW. I'd rather not, to be honest. Yes, their cars are beautifully built, yes they're very fast but along with Porsche and MB, they're the most frequent stolen brands.

I'd rather drive a Skoda, Kia, or any other brand that is going to provide reliable transport rather than a posh car. It is NOT the same with a posh vacuum cleaner - many owners won't think twice about dragging a Miele or equivalent expensive vacuum over hard floors and then past carpet frames. Apparently the wheels are tested for such durability and endurance tests. Pity the gloss finishes can't hide scrapes though.

But as a BMW owner, you'd never dream about putting your BMW on rough terrain unless it is designed to do so, and even then you may need to pay out for any repairs incurred.

As for Dyson - I don't lay blame there - sorry. Why? Because even SOME bagged vacuums are difficult to obtain spares for in later life- cue the Hoover Turbopower 2/3 brush rolls drama? You can talk all you want about "planned obsolescence," but it has nowt to do with Dyson being on the market. Brands like Hoover and others already played about with bagless vacuums well before Dyson came to market - enter the SMS shake out fabric bag.
 
Bravos and Elites

We still sell a ton of these used in shop and many customers prefer them over the Walmart bag less cheap stuff. One has to remember that these are both dirty air machines so after years of hard use they will leak some dust and they they can be rather noisy in higher amp versions. Picking up rocks and stones and paper clips and other hard items eventually does the fans in, especially on the Elites as the Bravos use a nylon fan that is pretty durable. If these machines are brought in for service every so often they seem to last for many years and we have hundreds of happy customers. The quality of motors is far superior to the current China units which take very little to burn out and 98% of the time those old 90's bearings can be brought back with quality grease. The attachments are also far better as they are often the same that was used on the canisters.

Overall I would say these 1990's machines from the USA are not really that bad unless in the hands of a real vacuum abuser!
 
I can't imagine

A vac shop today still selling Elites and Bravos, as these machines are not only 20 years old now, but they were very loud and leaked dust terribly. The Hoover Elite's motor to switch connection was very poor. I cannot imagine that any Bravos are still cleaning people's homes today. The motors were never meant to last more than a few years.

My friend that bought my vacuum shop when I opened the world's only Vacuum Cleaner Museum at the Tacony Factory in St. James, reports that he never sees Bravos and Elites any longer. I never see them in the trade-in room of the Kirby and Rainbow sellers either.
 

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