WHAT WOULD life be like with out bagless vacuum's

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Those Hoover Juniors aren't new, they are refurbished units. Still great uprights, but not new.
 
and would be made much better. Not all clog and fall apart in five min's

like dc41 all made to be thrown away

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WELL

A few things to remember.

Vacuums are not the only things to decline in quality quite rapidly over the last few years. I think that the cheapo vacuums would be more reliable than they are now, purely because of the nasty, low efficiency cyclones in so many cheap cleaners that clogs and causes the machine to overheat. But I don't think the quality of vacuums would have been all that better.

I also don't think Hoover would still be ruling the market. There is always going to be a popular brand. Hoover shot themselves in the foot with free flights and ruined the company themselves, forcing them to sell. That had very little to do with the bagless invasion and it happened so early into the bagless years.

So, overall, I think cleaners would be slightly more reliable and higher performing, but I don't think the quality would be all that different to what we have now. Although, personally, I'd be a lot happier ;)
 
I use to love to be able to look in an Argos Catalogue & you were able to buy a BRANDED Bagged Cylinder for about the £30 mark. Sigh, how times have changed.

I would be happier if I was able to do that still :o
 
Well, as long as I can buy Miele and SEBO bagged vacuums, that's all that matters. These two companies want nothing to do with bagless, and never have. They still have plenty of customers. If bagless lovers want to pay good money for Dysons that's up to them. I'm very happy with my Miele's and SEBO's and will not be buying any more bagless machines. I just prefer bagged. Bagless seems to be for the younger generation that have been brought up knowing nothing other than Dyson, and they are quite welcome to Dysons thank you very much.
 
"Those Hoover Juniors aren't new, they are refurbished units. Still great uprights, but not new."

I think they in fact are. They are not "genuine" Hoover Junior cleaners, rather these were built from brand-new "pattern" parts designed to mimic the original cleaner.
 
Sorry I stand corrected, it says "re-manufactured" which typically means the handle and the motors are not brand-new, but pretty much else is. As I say, typically so. There were so many variations of these cleaners during the 1990's, ranging from refurbished in almost all used parts, to refurbished with almost all new parts, through to those which used only totally brand-new parts.
 
If they would bring those and remanufactured Hoover twin tub washing machines over here, I would be a happy, happy man.
 
I may like dc01's but that is because I had toy dc01 and mum and nan had dc01s

but I do like hoover juniors and hoover turbopower 3

and Electrolux contour and turbomasters


p.s I only like 6 dysons

dc04
dc01
dc07
dc08
dc11
dc05
 
Wal-Mart wouldn't have a vacuum isle!
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If Dyson had never bought out his cyclonic technology in the 1980s, bags would rule the market! It would be lovely, product longevity would rise. They'd still be cheap vacuums, though! But if Dyson had no part in the vacuum market, fan-first cleaners could still be popular.who would be the company to take plastics from quality to beyond cheap?
 
Yes, We also still have Numatic Henry's which are fantastic vacuums on the market. People love them, and they are bagged. They are becoming increasingly popular even to this day. The brand is growing, and they have just been sold in the USA.
When people love Henry's so much, and that it is bagged, the public might not think bags are bad at all, especially if they are as cheap as chips and last 6 moths like Henry (very large HEPA-Flo bags. This just goes to show that bags may still be loved by a lot of people
 
Super-sweeper - I think TTI have a lot to answer for with the cheap throwaway plastivac market, and whether Dyson came about or not, TTI may have ended up being the world leader in modern vacs - how about that for a scary thought? TTI do not do quality. End of. They do quantity for pile em high and sell it cheap stores like Walmart. Many people cant afford Dysons, and dirty fan cleaners were on the way out anyway in the late 80's and early 90's, especially in the UK, when, by the time Dyson came along in 1993, most vacs were clean fan models.


Dyson has changed the face of vacuum cleaners. Like it or not, they are here to stay, and as long as we can still buy bagged vacs, then each customer is catered for. In the USA, you have many more models of bagged upright than we do in the UK, so you are luckier in that respect, but we are still able to get a fair few bagged canisters here, mainly from the German manufacturers.


The only bagged uprights we get now, are the Sebo X and Felix ranges, the Miele S7 range, Kirbys, Orecks, and a few budget brand models from Panasonic, Hoover(UK) and Electrolux/Zanussi, and come September, most of these will flout the new EU rules for power consumption so could be discontinued without a replacement . Otherwise, its pretty much bagless for uprights.


In the USA you have Tacony, which are a great company who brought manufacturing back to the USA, and produce many models of good quality bagged uprights, so support them and keep them in business. We need to keep buying bagged cleaners to prevent the bagless craze wiping them out for good. Once a vac manufacturer gets in trouble - you know the rest - along comes TTI, buys said company out, lays off staff, and transfers all manufacturing to China. Vax was once a UK owned company who produced vacs in the UK. Along came TTI, and off Vax went to China. Vax now produces NO bagged cleaners for the UK market. Dyson produces solely bagless. Hoover UK produce mainly bagless vacs with a couple of models of bagged canister and one model of bagged upright that's now 17 years old in design. Numatic make bagged tub vacs here in the UK, but no uprights.


As I said earlier, the Germans are saving the day for us in Europe, regarding bagged upright cleaners, they are the best we can get, along with Kirby, as pretty much everything else is bagless and made in the Far East, including Dyson.
 
"TTI have a lot to answer for with the cheap throwaway plastivac market, and whether Dyson came about or not, TTI may have ended up being the world leader in modern vacs"

Finally, something we agree on. Cheapo crappy vacs would have happened with or without Dyson's input, so I don't think we'd be looking at a more quality market without them.

I don't necessarilly agree that product longevity would increase that much either. Whilst it's true that cheap bagged vacs would last longer than cheap bagless vacs, look back over the years - there have always been crap bagged vacs that didn't last very long (Goblin Housemaids, Commanders and Lasers, Regina Housekeepers etc) although not so much in the abundance of unreliable cleaners that we have now.

The move to cheap, chinese made, products (vacuums or otherwise) was slightly inevitable and wouldn've happend with or without Dyson appearing on the market, although in contrast to that, I think Dyson have butchered the top end of the market asking top price for cheaply made machines.

"most of these will flout the new EU rules for power consumption so could be discontinued without a replacement"

I've noticed, Steve, that you're not exactly happy about the new EU legislation, despite it being proven with the new John and Lewis cleaners that there will still be very high performing machines with lower wattage. Not getting into a political debate, but feelings regarding the UK/Europe aside, the introduction of this legislation can only be seen as a good thing for the vacuum market. Perhaps you're letting your views on the current situation with the UK/EU debate cloud your judgement of the vacuum world?
 
I think life would be a lot CLEANER. Both inside the home and with air quality. I also think buyers would have to spend a bit of time thinking about what their vacuum cleaner needs in terms of filtration, IF required. With any luck they might take some time out to maintain their vacuums properly.
 
Not so fast

Lest anyone forget, the most low quality, most horrible vacuums ever made were bagged machines. Does no one remember the Regina Housekeeper (in pink). The lowest of the low. Chinese cannot make a vacuum as poor as the American's did with the Regina. How about the terrible Dirt Devil that used type C bags. Horrible. They belched dust worse than any bagless cleaner ever did. One of my least favorite uprights ever, the Eureka Bravo series. They had never ending problems, belched dust, ruined their bearings, broke their fans, and generally lived no more than two years in the hands of the average consumer. Bravos were made in the USA.

Having lived through all of these machines, as an adult, I remember the never ending repairs. I think, based on the fact I've owned my own vac shop and have repaired vacuums for more than 30 years now, the quality of todays low priced cleaners has improved somewhat from 20 years ago.

Bagged vacuums can be just as filthy as bagless (take a look at the trade-in room of any door to door vacuum distributor). It all depends upon how the average person takes care of them.

Virtually no one takes care of their cleaners like collectors do. In that respect, what WE enjoy and think of as a 'good' vacuum is NOT what the general public wants or will buy. It's unfortunate, but true.
 
It's not TTI's fault...

"TTI may have ended up being the world leader in modern vacs - how about that for a scary thought? TTI do not do quality. End of. "


 


Madabouthoovers:  TTI builds vacuums to the retailer's specifications. Walmart, Target and Argos in the UK tell TTI  they want cheap bagless vacuums that will last only 2-3 years so that the consumer will need to purchase a new vacuum every 2-3 years. TTI is very capable of manufacturing a quality well made vacuum. TTI does manufacture the <span style="font-size: 18pt;">All Metal</span> <span style="font-size: 18pt;">Royal</span> upright vacuums that are built to last a long time. So you see the blame actually goes to the large chain retail stores.
 
It is true that virtually nobody "treats vacuums the way collectors do," but at the same time teaching the general public that they no longer have to buy bags also leads owners into thinking they don't have to clean filters. This ideology of allowing the owner to become lazy isn't good at all. In turn it lets them believe that a big warranty cheaply priced vacuum is just as good as the old traditional bagged variety.

That's the reality, not the fantasy.
 
we'd still have bagless,

Without Dyson' s cyclonic action. We have rainbow and filter-queen for that. But remember HOOVER'S first attempt at bagless? They stuck a bagless tank on an Elite. Still a lot better than modern bagless, as long as the filter was kept clean! I own examples in Maroon, fusion purple, and transparent green. From there they would've became bypass, and from there would come the copycats!


 


Tom, you're right about the Regina housekeeper. But what other failures of vacuums came from American ingenuity? Not many. America is a lasting symbol of taking pride in your work and doing it right. Such a quality is hardly seen in products today. Anyone remember the Plymouth roadrunner, or the Ford pinto? Both were SUPER American, but had there faults. The Plymouth had so much power, it was known to TWIST it's chassis! The pinto is remembered for it's history of fuel tank explosions (should you ever find yourself in one, don't let somebody ram you in the back!). The American story is one of many successes and errors, let us not forget!


 


I hate to say it, but without Dyson there would be no Fantom! Could you imagine such a quality, Canadian built vacuum NEVER existing?
 
"<a name="start_25245.283804"></a>It's not TTI's fault...




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...TTI builds vacuums to the retailer's specifications. ....TTI does manufacture the <span style="font-size: 18pt;">All Metal</span> <span style="font-size: 18pt;">Royal</span> upright vacuums that are built to last a long time. So you see the blame actually goes to the large chain retail stores."


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<strong>This is very true. China builds stuff to an agreed price point. If a retailer wants to pay $5-10 for product in mass quantities, China manufacturers will build it at that price point.</strong>


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<strong><strong><strong>I also agree about the abominable American vaccums of a couple of decades ago. When I worked as a janitor, one of our teachers brought in her Regina Housekeeper (yes in pink), and asked me to look at it and see what's wrong. I told her it was just a lousy vacuum and to toss it (she did). They were truly junk.</strong></strong></strong>


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<strong><strong><strong><strong><strong>The Dirt Devils of that era always amazed me. How could a machine spew so much dust when it truly picked up so little?</strong></strong></strong></strong></strong>


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It's not even the big box stores fault. In the end, consumer drive the market and most consumers want cheap and expect to throw away most appliances in 1-2 years and buy another. Changing bags and filters is so last century and the idea of washing one or more filters and waiting for them to dry is just too much to comprehend.


 


Every time I sell an Aerus to a younger person, they are amazed that it will last for decades with very little maintenance. Change a bag when the machine shuts off and filters every year or so and if they will do the math, they begin to understand the thrift and frugality that their grandparents knew, buy right - buy once and over time the seemingly expensive purchase is actually quite a bit cheaper. Especially for those who have purchased top dollar Dyson's that barely made it through the warranty period or were too much trouble to have repaired and left a whole bunch of dirt in the carpet.


 


Dyson has made quality products in the past. My DC07 has always been a dependable machine... it's been demoted to garage/car duty for the most part mostly because I hate the dust storm that cleaning the bin creates. However my DC14 has been nothing but a pain in the ass from day one. More than a dozen clutches replaced under warranty, 7 in the first 9 months and pieces have broken off here and there. Newer ones flex too much and in some cases even break the seal to the bin and at other joins in the plastic.  Dyson did revolutionize the vacuum industry and has made serious coin off of a brilliant marketing effort. My only vacuum regret is letting go of my Fantom Thunder 17 years ago when it was incredibly difficult to source parts, especially the HEPA filters locally and by mail order they were approaching $100 and I just couldn't see it. Of course I saw the error of my thinking about 2 days too late, when I could not find any vacuum that cleaned as well without going to the DTD vendors which I could not afford at the time.
 
In the UK Argos and other franchises are not led by what the actual consumer wants in FLOORCARE. This is learnt very easily by watching The Apprentice on TV where new inventions that the teams have to put together in some of the tasks are sold to the board of directors in charge of companies such as Argos, John Lewis etc. All the big brands judge by sales first and foremost before they make their move.

After all, if consumers wanted bagged vacuums, Argos and Currys could sell ALL BRANDS concerned. But they only sell a few for cylinder vacs and very few for uprights. Oreck and SEBO are no longer sold at Argos or Currys because in general, the perception of both these high street franchises (and I hate to say it) aren't that premium.

If a product exists already or offers something slightly new from the old then brands such as Currys, Argos and John Lewis may consider it. Or if it is a product from say, SEBO who are represented by John Lewis for example, then JL would normally "carry it" for a term to judge what the sales are like from a small representative figure.

Argos and Currys are in no rush to sell bagged uprights. But by having advertising by Dyson and others in-store, it's a no brainer to see why.
 
Actually, they are interested and do stock what the consumer wants. Your own post proves it - sales drive what is stocked and sold. If consumers didn't by the dreck on offer, the selection would shift to what they do buy.  Profit drives corporate decisions and consumers provide that profit. It works the same in every market. Notwithstanding the above, clever marketing can and will change consumer perception and therefore influence purchases. Consumers want to believe what the read and see and often do, whether backed by their own experience or not. Even when shown the marketing is manipulating those perceptions, they will cling to them rather than believe they could be manipulated. That is human nature and that is what marketing relies upon.
 
Yes but you're in the USA. You have more brands and models than we do in the UK. Marketing and sales are all very well, but the UK buyer wants cheap appliances. Argos and others have catered well for that niche, with virtually everything produced in China at cheap cost. Of course there is premium "made in China" products but they can be expensive to buy...

The premium end dominated by Miele just about gets sales in Argos, but they don't have the full line up and some models are based on older, heavier units that are also sold online with catalogues.

Bosch, SEBO and Miele should, by all accounts be offered with different variants, as they are at our more premium high street franchise, John Lewis - but no other department store offers as many models.

Since the average consumer takes home between £1200 to £2000 a month in wages, not much after the tax, the amenities and the cost of living can buy a mere appliance that will clean up after the household. The cheaper the better for most UK consumers and if they can afford premium, they will want a variety to choose from.
 
Also, there is a hefty mark up on several, different floorcare brands - look at Oreck in the UK. Their uprights for the elderly market probably see sales but at £400 a piece, no thanks.

Miele vacs are also overpriced, helped along by the spin and marketing that Miele also provide. YOu can see the differences right across the board with independent sellers, Miele UK's website and the big box stores.
 

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