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@Vacuum Facts you thought everyone can figure it out ourselves because there's enough data now. You claim the data is there, but where is it?
I claimed the knowledge is there. It's in that lecture I made that discusses the basic science. It's completely obvious if you understand the basic science. It'll all be in my review once the V16 is globally released and the loud US channels have done their 'reviews'.
 
I claimed the knowledge is there. It's in that lecture I made that discusses the basic science. It's completely obvious if you understand the basic science. It'll all be in my review once the V16 is globally released and the loud US channels have done their 'reviews'.
Ohhh, so by the data and evidence you sent, you meant your YouTube lecture.
 
Example: If a machine consistently struggles to pick up a certain kind of debris (ie cat litter) in these tests
Depends on what the 'test' is. If it's a stupidly exaggerated situation that would never occur, then not really. Is it on carpet or hard floor. V16's default carpet performance is poorer than it can be (and don't worry, my review will criticise this very hard). Hard floor, I've never had any issue whatsoever with aerodynamically difficult particles. I should do a little video I suppose to counter the misleading BS out there on this point.

Yes, but the issue here is "you" are the only one that can make the comparison under the same conditions, therefore it is not widely repeatable.
You've misunderstood. Others do as well. Frickhelm for example shows similar relative trend relationships. I gave an example earlier.

My point here is no one can, so it is not 'fair' to criticize others' testing methods if they are consistent across the testing
Except the part earlier where I said they suffer from obvious experimental flaws (lack of control over key things they should have considered, like quantifying initial conditions and establishing reproducibility etc.) Only Frickhelm has done testing that I don't think was utterly amateur and flawed.

Here is an example of a 'jump to conclusion:' You make a conclusion jump that because his results are the same, you assume his test methods are the same.
I've never claimed his test methods are the same. He explains what he does, and it's different to me (you clearly haven't looked in detail at his work). But the method he uses establishes relative trends which tick all the criteria above. You seem to misunderstand the distinction between a specific test and whatever quantitative output they give, and the more important relative trends. I think here, you're simply not experienced enough in scientific experimentalism, maths, trends, statistics, and the other stuff drilled into you at degree level and beyond. Not much I can do about that. Frickhelm's data is totally different to mine, but the relative trends are fairly comparable (to first order).

-Using certified test dust doesn't account for large particles (ie cat litter).
Large particles like this aren't really an issue. It's the small ones harmful to health which are considered most relevant and what the test dust represents. I've seen no cinvincing evidence cat littler is an issue with the V16 in real-world scenarios with sensible usage. The guardian review was whining that the fluffy head collected it faster. Ok, but it takes longer to piss around with head changes. They didn't mention that part, but the gullible bought the criticism nonetheless. This is what I mean about stupid and misleading testing and conclusions from these 'reviews'.

Fair enough, to each their own... Personally I would prefer whatever machine gets the floors the cleanest in the shortest amount of time/least amount of effort.
Me too. But as above about head changes etc. There's more to the story and the weak 'reviews' out there mislead and distort.

Whether or not the V16 can be a 'mains replacement' is debatable at best.
Er, my cleaning data and subsequent real-world usage for months now shows quite clearly that it is. Otherwise I wouldn't use it. The V10 onwards has been mains equivalent for real-world usage. I know because I've used them all and lots of top end performing mains units.

The V15/V16 might be suitable for your personal usage, but I have learned the hard way for me it (V15) is not cut out for being a true 'mains' replacement.
Subjectivity aside, on objective matters, I welcome the evidence for careful review. Otherwise, my opinion differs, since it conflicts with yours and is informed by my objective evidence and subjective experience.
Yes this is a personal anecdote, and there is no way to scientifically qualify, prove, etc. I can list a several examples of 'why' I state this, but since they are not scientifically provable I will decline unless asked.
Ah, ok, well, above still applies. I put it down to personal feelings and it didn't 'feel' right for you. Each to their own. Objectively, it cleans as well as a mains cleaner in real-world responsible situations.
 
Ohhh, so by the data and evidence you sent, you meant your YouTube lecture.
Uh. Let me spell this out for you so clearly you can't misunderstand anymore and will stop harping on about it. I'm not talking about the issue or 'fix' just yet because to do so will undermine my objectives for the review. It will be revealed in the review. The review is delayed because I want to go last after everyone else has offered their reviews. This is to achieve specific objectives in my review about the problems with social media 'reviews' etc. If you understand how vacuum cleanres work at a lower level, it's so completely obvious what the issue and fix are. If you want to understand how vacuum cleaners work, my lecture covers it. If anyone hasn't figured it out, it means they don't really understand how vacuum cleaners work. If they care so much as to continually go on about it, they need to go away and learn the science, which is all there for them, and figure out the reason for themselves until my review when I'll spoon feed those incapable.
 
Depends on what the 'test' is. If it's a stupidly exaggerated situation that would never occur, then not really. Is it on carpet or hard floor. V16's default carpet performance is poorer than it can be (and don't worry, my review will criticise this very hard). Hard floor, I've never had any issue whatsoever with aerodynamically difficult particles. I should do a little video I suppose to counter the misleading BS out there on this point.
For fricks sake man...

Cats drag cat litter on their paws to wherever they may roam. Most sane individuals are going to prefer a vacuum picks it up wherever it might be found.

You've misunderstood. Others do as well. Frickhelm for example shows similar relative trend relationships. I gave an example earlier.
No, you misunderstand. Can you replicate his tests? Can he replicate yours? This is basic experimental design. The answer is NO unless you use the exact same methodology, including the same make carpet to test upon. Again, this is all understandable and no fault applied here. My point remains: "some" of these other "bedroom tests" that things slightly different, but also show 'relative trend relationships.' Just not in the same manner that your tests do. Yes they are much more simplistic and much less controlled, but can and do still show trends.

If you want to take a hardline about this, none of the tests are valuable since none of them are truly scientific/controlled. I choose not to take that hardline, as there is value in many of them (some have more, some have less, some have essentially none)

Except the part earlier where I said they suffer from obvious experimental flaws (lack of control over key things they should have considered, like quantifying initial conditions and establishing reproducibility etc.) Only Frickhelm has done testing that I don't think was utterly amateur and flawed.
Part of 'reproducibility' is just that, and that is my argument here. Only you can 'reproduce' your tests, others cannot verify due to aforementioned reason(s).

I've never claimed his test methods are the same. He explains what he does, and it's different to me (you clearly haven't looked in detail at his work). But the method he uses establishes relative trends which tick all the criteria above. You seem to misunderstand the distinction between a specific test and whatever quantitative output they give, and the more important relative trends. I think here, you're simply not experienced enough in scientific experimentalism, maths, trends, statistics, and the other stuff drilled into you at degree level and beyond. Not much I can do about that. Frickhelm's data is totally different to mine, but the relative trends are fairly comparable (to first order).
Again, are we talking about scientific tests here, or not...

Large particles like this aren't really an issue. It's the small ones harmful to health which are considered most relevant and what the test dust represents. I've seen no cinvincing evidence cat littler is an issue with the V16 in real-world scenarios with sensible usage. The guardian review was whining that the fluffy head collected it faster. Ok, but it takes longer to piss around with head changes. They didn't mention that part, but the gullible bought the criticism nonetheless. This is what I mean about stupid and misleading testing and conclusions from these 'reviews'.
Cat litter may not be 'harmful to health' (debatable if its filled with seeping ammonia..) but it is sure something I personally would want a vacuum to pick up, and I would wager the vast majority of people would agree...

Note 1: I make no claim on V16 and ability with cat litter. I only use this as a working example where certain machines struggle.
Note 2: I also find the fluffy head on V15 is much preferable (performance wise) to the std V15 one on hard floors, and I make the effort to switch the head. Not an issue for me personally.
Er, my cleaning data and subsequent real-world usage for months now shows quite clearly that it is. Otherwise I wouldn't use it. The V10 onwards has been mains equivalent for real-world usage. I know because I've used them all and lots of top end performing mains units.
Yes we all have different use cases:
-Overall area needing cleaned
-Dirt load (For me, one shedding dog, 3 shedding long hair females, 2 being young kids & all their associated messes)

Before when I lived alone and no pet the V7 (seemingly) did just fine as my "mains." (did need several charges to clean whole house)
Subjectivity aside, on objective matters, I welcome the evidence for careful review. Otherwise, my opinion differs, since it conflicts with yours and is informed by my objective evidence and subjective experience.
When one considers their experiences and evidence as objective, but all others as subjective, there is no point in debate.

Ah, ok, well, above still applies. I put it down to personal feelings and it didn't 'feel' right for you. Each to their own. Objectively, it cleans as well as a mains cleaner in real-world responsible situations.
Nice try, but I suppose you are right... It didn't feel right, as I personally felt and saw all the pet hair and debris the V15 was leaving behind...

Except about the objectively part, because objectively it does not perform the same as a quality corded "mains" unit, in a real-world responsible situation.
 
For fricks sake man...

Cats drag cat litter on their paws to wherever they may roam. Most sane individuals are going to prefer a vacuum picks it up wherever it might be found.


We have a Japanese Panasonic power nozzle canister parked in the bathroom by the big litter box and all it does is clean cat litter from the bathroom floor and into the bedroom. That one's our shtinky vacuum : / We have the grippy mat that is supposed to trap all the litter but that stuff sticks to their paws and gets tracked all around.
 
My point remains: "some" of these other "bedroom tests" that things slightly different, but also show 'relative trend relationships.' Just not in the same manner that your tests do. Yes they are much more simplistic and much less controlled, but can and do still show trends.
I welcome your evidence (specifically) of what you're classifying as a trend from others that's used to show relative performance for review. Break their data down for me and evidence what it shows specifically. Then do the same for, say, frickhelm's data. Convince me not only you understand it, but this other data you allude to achieves the same confidence in the conclusions.

Part of 'reproducibility' is just that, and that is my argument here. Only you can 'reproduce' your tests, others cannot verify due to aforementioned reason(s).
Independent people reproduced the same relative trends between machines that are fully consistent with first order systems, and confidently draw the same conclusion, despite experimental differences in the details and specific quantifications. I'm not aware of any other amateur testing that has achieved that convincingly. A crude binary 'better/worse' indicator doesn't convincingly say much, but that's what everyone else's weak and flawed testing outputs.

Ultimately, I put my stuff out there; people can make what they want of it.
 
For fricks sake man...

Cats drag cat litter on their paws to wherever they may roam. Most sane individuals are going to prefer a vacuum picks it up wherever it might be found.


We have a Japanese Panasonic power nozzle canister parked in the bathroom by the big litter box and all it does is clean cat litter from the bathroom floor and into the bedroom. That one's our shtinky vacuum : / We have the grippy mat that is supposed to trap all the litter but that stuff sticks to their paws and gets tracked all around.
OK. Not quite sure what you're therefore saying, specifically. Kind of went a bit vague again. I don't think anyone has shown the V16 doesn't do that when used properly under these kind of situations. If you disagree, please provide the evidence so the details can be scrutinised to ensure it's apples-to-apples.
 
OK. Not quite sure what you're therefore saying, specifically. Kind of went a bit vague again. I don't think anyone has shown the V16 doesn't do that when used properly under these kind of situations. If you disagree, please provide the evidence so the details can be scrutinised to ensure it's apples-to-apples.
I was replying to Herbicide, not you : /
 
I welcome your evidence (specifically) of what you're classifying as a trend from others that's used to show relative performance for review. Break their data down for me and evidence what it shows specifically. Then do the same for, say, frickhelm's data. Convince me not only you understand it, but this other data you allude to achieves the same confidence in the conclusions.


Independent people reproduced the same relative trends between machines that are fully consistent with first order systems, and confidently draw the same conclusion, despite experimental differences in the details and specific quantifications. I'm not aware of any other amateur testing that has achieved that convincingly. A crude binary 'better/worse' indicator doesn't convincingly say much, but that's what everyone else's weak and flawed testing outputs.

Ultimately, I put my stuff out there; people can make what they want of it.
I cannot possibly break it down any further. It is as granular as it gets. The "trends" I speak of is certain designs that tend (ahem, trend) to perform with various types of debris. But I digress, I only use this as an example in likely vain attempt to communicate my point. More examples, and these are just generalities and NOT limited or focused on any single manufacturer, nor is it applicable to every specific design of each:

-non-powered brush rollers do better on hard floors than they do plush carpet. (not in all cases!)
-powered brush rollers tend (ahem trend) to do better on carpeted floors than hard floors (not in all cases!)
-certain designs powered brush rollers do better with hair tangles than others
-etc etc

I am not criticizing your testing procedures. I AM criticizing your attitude towards others testing procedures.
 
My main test is if it can survive being used like a normal erson would. I only change the bags in my dialy drivers (kirby and electrolux) when they don't clean properly. That is very rarely. I don't care if a vacuum cleans 3% better, my carpets look, feel and smellclean.That isn all I need. At one point people only cared if a machine really didn't clean well or really did clean well. I like that the kirby is easyto justwheel out and it is self propelled with a fairly wide nozzle. I use my kirby g5 at my nana's house which is a medium-large ranch style home. Easy, simple and convenient. This whole thread makes me think of the song "it's still rock and roll to me" by Billy Joel. What worked 40 years ago still works today while what isnew today won't work in 5 years.
 
What worked 40 years ago still works today while what is new today won't work in 5 years.

Very true. I have a Dyson DC28 that is totally dead because the logic board for the motor burned up for no reason at all, just because it felt like it, but I have a Hoover Model 300 that was pulled out of a barn loft where its been rotting for over 80 years, plug it in, fires right up within a second of switching it on.

Most people today dont even KEEP a vacuum longer than 5 years.
 
Uh. Let me spell this out for you so clearly you can't misunderstand anymore and will stop harping on about it. I'm not talking about the issue or 'fix' just yet because to do so will undermine my objectives for the review. It will be revealed in the review. The review is delayed because I want to go last after everyone else has offered their reviews. This is to achieve specific objectives in my review about the problems with social media 'reviews' etc. If you understand how vacuum cleaners work at a lower level, it's so completely obvious what the issue and fix are. If you want to understand how vacuum cleaners work, my lecture covers it. If anyone hasn't figured it out, it means they don't really understand how vacuum cleaners work. If they care so much as to continually go on about it, they need to go away and learn the science, which is all there for them, and figure out the reason for themselves until my review when I'll spoon feed those incapable.
@Vacuum Facts, this is the first time I'm aware of that you failed to provide evidence. Very unusual, but even then it's deliberate from the start. No wonder why people struggles to understand you.

At this point, might as well rely on your lecture. Good luck.
 
@Vacuum Facts, this is the first time I'm aware of that you failed to provide evidence. Very unusual, but even then it's deliberate from the start. No wonder why people struggles to understand you.

At this point, might as well rely on your lecture. Good luck.
You've misunderstood again. That's quite impressive actually. You can deduce the issue from the background science without needing the machine or any data.
 
@Vacuum Facts I had to correct the AI multiple times, while at the same time I also had to teach the AI to understand the science and everything. So far I've come up with this corrected set from Google Gemini 2.5 Pro (with human intervention this time), which came up with this possible take:
- Possible issue: How the V16 connects to the dual-cones floorhead used to test deep cleaning. The data pin(s) may be the problem.
- Possible fix: Block the ID connection (by using a small non-conductive tape) but keep the power. The machine would treat it as a typical powered tool instead of the specialized one that the floorhead has been designed as.
Google Gemini 2.5 Pro but corrected by human and a lecture (and some images) said:
The modification is to block the data communication pins between the wand and the main body, while still allowing the power pins to connect.
- The Method: The connector between the wand and the V16 body has large pins for power (to drive the head's motor) and small pins for data (for identification). The fix is to use a small piece of non-conductive tape to cover only the small data pins.
- The Resulting "Fixed" State:
+ The V16 body turns on.
+ It sends power to the wand, and the Piston head's motor spins (it's receiving power).
+ However, the V16 body's data request gets no reply (the pins are blocked).
+ The firmware now faces an unhandled exception: It has a powered head (it can feel the electrical draw) but no ID.
+ It does not default to the [450W] limit (it doesn't see the Piston head).
+ It does not default to the [Tool] limit (it knows a powered head is attached, not a non-powered tool).
+ With no specific "throttle" command to execute, the firmware defaults to its absolute maximum, uncapped hardware profile.

As for you, @centralsweeper63...
It may go viral, then more people will waste their money. In all seriousness though, V-F has been quite confusing, hypocritical and annoying to me. I don't mind though as I love a good debate.
They'll waste money trying to prove VF wrong. VF won't fall for it. If his V16 review go viral (which I really hope it does), the other reviewers who failed to come to a proper conclusion (most commonly speaking, right effect but for a wrong reason, as both I and VF noted). This is what you get this time around, of you fail to figure the allegedly obvious crap out.

@vac14012, admit that V16 is a tragic machine. Admit that the reviewers couldn't do any of it proper justice (except for VF and to lesser extent @frickhelm)!
 
I will just wait and see.
Once the @Vacuum Facts' review of V16 comes out, we need to and absolutely must make it go viral. Otherwise the other reviewers would never learn from their BS. TechRadar rejected my objection, which is telling (and probably sarcastically impressive as VF would know). If VF can really force all other reviewers who fail to understand the true details to think twice first, then I'll gladly help him out. I don't care how grateful he is towards me, I just want the reviewers to do their jobs properly.
 

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