Vacuum cleaner pick up tests on carpet

[vacuumdevil]

I've done a small video explaining why you can't accurately weigh a bag or dustbin with debris during a pick up test on carpet.




Actually I did two videos because good "scientific theory" is repeatable.
I'm only making one public because I don't want to start the debate bypass vs direct air that's not what I wish to discuss.
also I'm expect to have a few "hurt feeling" replies from some locals in "New balance shoes.
Enjoy or cry whichever "brings you Joy"
Second video with similar results.

 

[ralph123]

I saw the video, but I don't think your argument was very convincing. You weren't even running a fair scientific test. You didn't even reference any valid scientific test methods. All tests have their limitations, and much thought goes into ones that are truly scientifically valid. Tests are repeated to measure variability in results. Certainly I appreciate that many of your videos are entertaining, even when they lack scientific rigor. Thanks for posting them.

 

[beagledad]

ralph123

But in the video he addresses the concerns you brought up. He said ideally you would need multiple models of the same machine to get truly accurate representations. He wasn't trying to pull a fast one on any of us. And he purposely used a lower power vacuum with no rotating brush and just a couple of passes to show that you will still be able to suck up material from a very clean carpet.

Maybe some people don't care for his sense of humor but I find it refreshing compared to the almost patronizing tone of another channel.

 

[huskyvacs]

I'd rather have someone that knows what they are talking about and the facts to back it up vs. someone that just works in dad's vacuum shop and is trying to copycat tests without understanding the science behind them.

 

[mike811]

weighted sand in the carpet test

This will make things clear.
Key to these test is VERY thorough pre vacuuming before the test.
In my test I got tiny bit of carpet pick up and even much bigger piece of carpet only weights 0.07 grams.
So I did put down 10 grams of sand and vacuum picked up 5.79 grams.
Even big piece of carpet is not going to mess up the test.
NOTE that typical carpet pick up in these tests is way less than 0.07 grams shown here.
Smaller piece of carpet was so light that scale didn't even show it.
Video in the link shows everything clearly.

 

[vaclab]

6 Pairs of New Balance Shoes Here in the Lab

VacLab Response Part 1

In 1982, I took my first advanced placement (re: College level) Physics course as a junior in High School. Many years later I submitted term papers and received an “A” in a graduate level (i.e. 500 level) Physics/M.E. lab course in which I performed detailed mechanical/electrical labs. These papers were graded by a PhD professor.

My formal degree is Math, but I have 9 credit hours remaining and I would earn a B.S. in Physics as well.

With that being said, 6 pairs of New Balance shoes should definitely sway any naysayers in the right direction (see, I made a funny there).

Let’s boil down his video into two fundamental arguments.

1)The theory of “if you weigh a vacuum bag, it will tell you how much you have picked up.”

His observance that there will be “error” in pickup in 100% true and I’ve been making videos to that effect since 2017 when I started my channel. At this time, I’ve posted innumerable videos in which I separate erroneous carpet fluff from the test dirt, wherever possible

But it gets better. Beginning in January 2020, I started a playlist called “Dry Pass (Carpet Shredder) Test” in which carpet tear out is specifically quantified. To date, 14 results have been posted, ranging from a low of 0.01g to a high of 0.65g. So all 14 machines (which were tested up to 5 times to obtain consistent results) had “error rates” of far less than 1 gram on my medium pile test carpet. While every carpet will certainly be different, all one needs to do is measure the extraneous pickup and properly quantify it, a simple task provided you have a sensitive scale. A scale that only measures to 1 gram should never be used.



Once the “error rate” is properly measured, it can now be used in a simple formula.

(Raw Bag/Bin Pickup) MINUS (Error Rate) = Cleaned Pickup

I specifically designed my tests to give highly accurate results regardless of the error rate. Here’s how the Math works out:
If I test one of my “carpet shredder” vacuums with 5 grams of sand and I have a known 0.5 grams error, I can merely subtract that from the pickup. If the shredder picks up 4 grams, subtract 0.5 grams and now you have 3.5 grams, a 10% reduction.

If I test one of my non-shredder vacuums with 5 grams of sand and I have a known 0.1 grams error, I can merely subtract that from the pickup. If the non-shredder picks up 4 grams, subtract 0.1 grams and now you have 3.9 grams, a 2% reduction.

It should also be mentioned that all testing typically has varying margins of error caused by a wide variety of factors. Many industries recognized that plus or minus 3% is an acceptable range. You should never buy another vacuum because some test shows it to be 5% or even 10% better. The difference will be nearly impossible to notice for the average user.

Around 9:38 the statement is made “You can’t use carpet for a weighed pickup test.” <- Totally false claim as proven above. Alex, you need to watch how proper testing is performed, which is why I named my channel “VacLab.”

 

[vaclab]

VacLab Response Part 2

2)Vacuum Wars Erroneous Testing

Unfortunately Vacuum Wars does not know how to perform proper scientific testing and he has posted many hilarious results showing near and well over 100% pickup. I have posted many rebuttal videos but ALL testers need to specifically watch this one:



Testing with 50 or 100 grams in a small area is downright irresponsible. Think about how many pounds (kilograms) or dirt would be picked up if multiplied out for 1000 square feet? You might fill a large Kirby bag every time you vacuumed! Totally unrealistic unless you reside in a massively filthy home.

Vacuum Wars obtains near and well over 100% due to at least two factors:

1) His carpet is still dirty (must be flipper over) to remove previous build up and
2) Shedding (which he has never quantified).

For my tests, I clean and verify a typical dirt error of around 0.01 grams. Read that number again very slowly. Yup, that’s one hundred times cleaner than what can be measured by a 1 gram scale. If I were to have a dirt error of 0.05 grams and was performing a 5 gram test, that would only introduce a 1% (one percent) error. Obviously, also take into account the carpet shredder results as stated in the first response above.

Want to see an “unclean-able” carpet that has not only has never ending dirt but also massive tear out?



This carpet was eventually thrown out because it could not generate accurate repeatable results.

Final thoughts

Any tester that obtains results near or over 100% should be ashamed of themselves period. They have either not done proper vetting of the test itself or the test is useless because all vacuums get about the same result. To that end, I ceased most of my bare floor tests years ago because the results were fairly boring. Bare floor/surface pickup is easy compared to carpet extraction tests.

I can't tell you exactly how many hundreds of hours (maybe 1000+) I spent in College labs (Chemistry, Physics, Engineering, Programming, etc.) performing precision experiments with full write-ups that were scrutinized by professors and even periodically peer reviewed. ALL results had to be explained including all errors encountered (even broken equipment). Now combine that with a degree that includes probability/proofs and statistics and you have the makings of someone that is well qualified to create and complete proper testing.

 

[lesinutah]

Game

Set, Match!

 

[justinajax]

I guess because I'm new here - I don't get the whole New Balance shoes reference. 

 

[marks_here]

Ummm

I'm old here & could care less

 

[ralph123]

Regarding the uncleanable rug on the concrete floor, I have to wonder if the problem is the concrete releasing dust rather than never ending dirt in the rug?

 

[vacfan1982]

I think we should all bow to King Bills superiority

 

[vaclab]

Mark, It's The Superior Shoes That Grant

Testing super powers. All hail New Balance! Let the shoe Kowtowing begin.

 

[vacfan1982]

Oh so it's not only a Kirby fetish you have then Bill

Btw on this occasion I agree with you but don't tell anyone

 

[vacuumdevil]

@vaclab All that nonsense and still no taste or fashion
Or basic understanding of a simple household appliance.
I can't believe you'd posted a picture of all your cheap cankle shoes.

Thank you vacuumland!
ROFL you all have made my day.

 

[blackheart]

New balance

New balances are the key to accurate testing? I've been wearing Nikes since last August....I knew I shouldn't have made that switch!

 

[lesinutah]

Ironic

 

[gottahaveahoove]

ouch.

Well, if I were to post my shoes, you'd see: penny loafers, saddle shoes, suede bucks, Rebock high tops, etc...................
yep, preppy little dork.

 

[mike811]

Well point of this thread has been proven.
These tests are very accurate where you measure the bag or bagless bin content.
Just compare it to tests where people judge vacuums by inspecting the carpet by eye after unmeasured dirt put down to the carpet.

I don't show my shoes because they are mixed bag

 

[vaclab]

Well Yes, Alex's Argument Has Been Debunked

By well proven methodologies that can be easily duplicated. Thanks for your bagless version of this proof Mike.

And I do hope that all the readers also fully understand that the shoe picture above denotes my general activity shoes. Things like moving the grass (see the green?), working in a muddy yard, changing oil/rotating tires, general lounging around, etc. I have many other pairs/brands for my formalized activities.

I'm not particularly worried about "taste or fashion" when performing dirt pickup Alex. How many ditch diggers wear a suit?

"Or basic understanding of a simple household appliance." <-- Nice false statement again. Keep 'em coming and I (and others) will keep debunking them.

Bill

 

[gottahaveahoove]

Well,

my late father was known to cut the grass in a shirt and tie. (Don't ask).
It explained a lot, though.
I've never conducted "tests" as in depth, just simpler ones here at minimeeets..... when I used to host them.

 

[regularrett69]

Hmm

Well, I've been watching many videos, and Alex's videos seem to be more helpful and entertaining, because of the variety of vacuums he works on. It's very cool to see what it would be like in the back of a vacuum shop (even if it isn't) because I'm hoping to get a job at my local shop, and its basically virtual training. VacLab's replies may be correct, may not be (I don't read English essays very much) but they always come out in a malicious tone. I feel like the majority of people are bullying Alex on this site, though he was the one to work in multiple vacuum shops. I'm not sure why everybody is taking VacLab's side. Also, I got my first royal yesterday, and its great. Easy to push, very similar to my Dirt Devils, and the same charm as a generation series Kirby. It's a prince, but the upright, so a model 782. Haven't been able to use it yet because old owner used a Kirby belt instead of a royal belt. Going to the vacuum shop today.

Your friend, Garrett

 

[mike811]

@regularrett69

I am someone who actually supports everyone who is interested in vacuums and knows about them. I always try to avoid any conflicts and I have liked a lot of Alex videos and vaclab videos.
Problem is when he turned against us who do these measured tests like me (vacuum tests) and vaclab.
Would you like if someone made video just for you how wrong you do things?
Even when you know the proper testing methods and another don't.
Just think about it.

 

[vacuumdevil]

@vaclab
As I've come to expect from you Bill massive amounts of arrogance.
Take your blood pressure medication for this one.

You have yet to mention the fact you don't have a laboratory. Nor do you even use enough vacuums for control let alone scientific experiment.
You don't have a laboratory you're not a scientist.
No vacuum YouTuber is to my knowledge.
Again you haven't debunked anything except for a little ego masturbation and sharing you're flawed ideas.
Again I've seen some of your videos you struggle hard to turn on some machines.
I knew your ego couldn't resist the bait. You live in a small hick town which has inflated your ego out of proportion.

Yes I make fun of you for being out of shape with cankles and bad shoes.
I'm sure you filter out plenty of comments on that on YouTube.

@regularrett69 @vacfan198 @lesinutah @beagledad @gottahaveahoover @blackheart @huskyvacs @mike811

Thanks for watching & commenting here!

 

[lesinutah]

Master

Its commonly known 10000 hours of an activity/ trade you would be considered a master.
If vacuum devil has 17 years working at 2000 hours a year it's safe to say he is a master vacuum technician.
I earned my bachelor's degree in 2009. If I went 3 more if have a master's degree. Once you start upper level classes teachers are similar. Similar in the sense over 75% have a master's or doctor's degree. In my field 30 of the 120 credit hour classes were considered master level courses. My degree is in technology management.
I'm highly educated and decorated but boasting comes across as insecurity to me. I don't need to tell anyone of my accomplishments to be happy. I also don't need a million views on you tube either.
I wouldn't boast how qualified to prove a point. I'm betting a good majority of members are as educated as you and me.
Les

 

[vaclab]

My Final Comments On This Thread

Everyone should see how Alex self-destructs and attacks everything except the actual claims when he is proven wrong. I will always attempt to correct faulty premises and flat out lies, especially when it's fairly obvious. Some people have no interest in the truth, which is sad.

(Raw Bag/Bin Pickup) MINUS (Error Rate) = Cleaned Pickup <-- Fourth grade Math

As I've come to expect from you Bill massive amounts of arrogance. <--The arrogance is yours, not mine.
Take your blood pressure medication for this one. <-- Are you my doctor? How dare you suggest anything from a medical standpoint!

You have yet to mention the fact you don't have a laboratory. Nor do you even use enough vacuums for control let alone scientific experiment. <-- Are you blind? My lab is in my basement. You can see all kinds of equipment in a wide variety of videos. The fact that you don’t like my lab makes you quite prejudiced, doesn’t it? I created an engineering/testing lab in 1990 BTW. Added vacuum oriented equipment in 2015. I've even designed and built high precision test equipment.

One well maintained vacuum is all you need. Car And Driver performs all their tests with ONE VEHICLE and only after it’s fully broken in. Additional samples usually skew the data by a small percentage. I’ve always said a 5% or even a 10% MoE is normal, depending on the test type. No one should run out and buy a machine for such a small improvement.

You don't have a laboratory you're not a scientist. <-- See my qualifications in the above post. Also Google what the generic term “scientist” means.

No vacuum YouTuber is to my knowledge. <-- You don’t understand what proper testing is or what a scientist is either.

Again you haven't debunked anything except for a little ego masturbation and sharing you're flawed ideas. <-- Nothing like sinking down to sexual references, eh? And please Google what proper debunking methods are as you are completely unfamiliar with them.

Again I've seen some of your videos you struggle hard to turn on some machines. <-- Hey! I have wide (4E) feet and tiny Bissell pedals make my foot slip off periodically. Not relevant to testing though, right?

I knew your ego couldn't resist the bait. You live in a small hick town which has inflated your ego out of proportion. <-- You implied you were waiting for a response from me in the original post? What did you think I would do when confronted with your massively erroneous conclusions? Oh, and now my small hick town somehow makes me sub-human? You are possibly the most biased/prejudiced person I know of!

Yes I make fun of you for being out of shape with cankles and bad shoes. <-- Your medical observations are hilarious! You think yourself a doctor? FYI, my ankles are the perfect size and my BMI does not put me into the overweight category. Get your eyes checked.

I'm sure you filter out plenty of comments on that on YouTube. <-- Yet another lie. To date, my block list is around 1.5%, mostly due to foul language, just like in your videos from a few years ago.

SUMMARY: My claim/criticism is that Alex is unfamiliar with this concept
(Raw Bag/Bin Pickup) MINUS (Error Rate) = Cleaned Pickup

Alex's Counter Claims (no proper rebuttal given of course). VacLab is arrogant, has high blood pressure, has no lab, not a scientist, debunked ego masturbation, has flawed ideas, struggles to turn on vacuums, lives in a hick town, has cankles, and bad shoes. Yep, sounds like proper rebuttal...not!

Go nuts people! It's yet another Alex versus Bill thread. Enjoy!

 

[vacuumdevil]

@vaclab Bill

As disgusting in the video. You don't have a big enough sample size non a scientific lab. IRB dose us YouTubers do not.

Unfortunately it is evident from your videos that something's not right health-wise I wish you well!

There's no degree for testing vacuums.
Nobody's ever asked what my credentials might be?

There goes the saying "big fish in a small pond"
I'm sure it has to do with why our egos so inflated.
As soon as you leave your small pond and go into the ocean that is the internet you are a small flounder fish.

I can tell from the conversating I've seen you do over the years, that analogies and paraphrasing tend to go over your head. It's okay.
When I posted the video I mentioned that you would get upset and not understand the point.
I will outline it quickly.
*Vacuum Pick up test are not done in a scientific manner on YouTube.
*Nobody buys enough of the same machine to conduct a proper scientific experiment.
*Bill is easily betable & has bad taste in shoes
*I love vacuum people and people who YouTube about vacuums. I even like talking to Bill.

 

[vacfan1982]

I think you two should do a joint YouTube video and have a debate I think that would be very entertaining. You might need a referee though. Seconds out round one

 

[mike811]

After all this talk.
Measured high accuracy carpet pick up test STILL IS the best way to know how vacuums really performs.
Error rate in these kind of tests (if done properly) is very small.
I mean compare this to the visual carpet inspection how vacuum picked up.
That doesn't tell anything how vacuum actually performs and how much it REALLY picks up.
Visual inspection works on the hard floors, but NOT on the carpets.
There is A LOT of effort to do measured carpet pick up test.
This is just a common sense and I find it funny how some people don't understand it.