This is to all Oreck fans...

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I can tell I'm hitting a brick wall here. Everyone seems hellbent on the Riccar. I, however will put my money on the originator, rather than the imitator every time. I think the Riccar SuperLite will be a flash in the pan, just like the Bissell ProLite/Kenmore E4. Why does the Oreck need a circuit breaker? If something gets stuck in the roller brush, the worst that will happen is the belt breaks. Most people know better than to suck up a sock. Usually, it's the cleaning ladies who do this. I'm sure the bulk majority of these XL-21's will be around 21 years from now. You'd be a fool to not take advantage of the warranty and free yearly service. My daily driver is an Oreck XL 100C from 1984 (22 years old - and still going strong!) The XL-21 is not your mother's Oreck, and should not be judged as such. It is in a class by itself.
You are incorrect in saying the vacuums with bigger motors last longer. They burn out quicker, because they generate more heat. If this were true, then why do I see practically new Dirt Devils, Sharks, Eurekas and Hoovers with 12 amp motors thrown out all the time? This is done intentionally, so the masses buy a new vacuum every six months or a year. People want lighter weight vacuums, not these big clunky bagless machines. I think if I had to choose an 8 pound vacuum that was not an Oreck, I would look at the new lightweight Hoover first.
 
I thought I might weigh in with my two-cents on the Oreck question. No brickbats, please. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. But here's the situation as I see it.

David Oreck was a marketing man who went, in the 1960's to Whirlpool, after Sears forced them to stop selling vacuums under the Whirlpool name, and bought the rights to Whirlpool's little 'broom vac' they were making for Sears, which became the first Oreck. It was nothing more than a power nozzle motor with a fan built into the pivot knuckle to throw the dirt it inhaled into a little bag attached at the front of the handle. I have the Sears ad for this very machine.


David Oreck is a very good 'marketing man', who tried innovative ways to sell his light weight broom vac. The first thing he had to do was to stop thinking of it as an electric broom, and start calling it a full sized vacuum cleaner. Over the course of the first few years, the Oreck was built in Germany, then by Bissell in America. The handle was made taller (the first Oreck's had short little squat, square handles). But it still retained it's initial design of a power nozzle motor with a belt on one end and a fan on the other. Just a minimum amount of airflow to move the dirt dislodged by the brush into the bag.

Today, Oreck has several different "models" of virtually the same machine. While the XL-21 had a larger suction OPENING and a larger fan chamber, it retains the little power nozzle motor, fan, and belt design of the first Oreck machines (including the XL-21's 3.5 amp motor).

While the design is sufficient for surface cleaning of the rug, the design falls short on suction, using a very fast rotating brush to 'comb' the carpet rather than using high suction to remove the dirt. I find that strong airflow as well as high speed agitation is the best design for rug cleaning.

I went to the Oreck store, curious, because I saw the Television commercial with David Oreck extolling the virtues of his eight-pound wonder. I was in sticker shock over the prices of these machines. The XL-21 was $800, and included a little compact vacuum (with TINY bags) because the upright had no attachments on the machine. I guess to make it eight pounds you have to take OUT something, like attachments, and make everything tiny (like the motor and fan).

The XL-21 has a fan vulverable to damage by hard debris. While it's hard plastic ("kevlar" they called it, which sounds like a made-up name to me), it's still in the path of the dirt. The belt is a simple flat power nozzle belt. Isn't this 2007? Where's the lifetime geared (cogged) belt of other $800 machines?

Then came the REAL shock. The bags. Not just for one vacuum, but for two. The little vac's tiny bags come twelve to a pack for $14. The upright's "celoc" (another made up word if you ask me) bags cost $20 for eight.

I asked them if I could test out the XL-21 on some rice I brought with me, to see "if it would edge clean well". They allowed me to throw the rice down against an edge. The Oreck just pushed it with it's mustache brushes, but didn't inhale it. I could smell the rice it did suck up, after grinding through the fan, and hitting the bag, coming through and out into the air.

I'm, admittedly, a Miele fan. My Miele 217 power nozzle sucks up rice along ANY edge, doesn't grind it through a fan, doesn't let any smells out (the carbon filter doesn't allow it), and the Miele has real, honest to God suction power. I have attachments to clean everything, including bare floors, and my Miele will last every bit of 21 years WITHOUT an annual 'tune up' and the associated hassle and expensve of driving the machine to and from a repair shop all the time.

My Miele will never need a new belt. Nor will the belt burn, crack, slip or break. My Miele is QUIET and the filtration is at the 100% level. Yet, the Miele cost less (by $300) than the Oreck XL-21. My model 514 Miele, in gorgeous Vibrant Red, cost $499 plus tax.

After all that, I decided that if I wanted a light weight vacuum for 'daily' jobs, I could just buy the Miele Universal Upright with a 217 power nozzle. I'd have a two motor machine, with five times the suction of the Oreck, at the same weight as the Oreck, for $500 less than the Oreck.

My personal thought is that the Oreck's price includes about a 50% markup because of all the advertising. I don't feel like paying for television commercials.
 
Well, you're over 21, and entitled just the same as me to make an informed decision. After the statements you made, I would say the Oreck is DEFINITELY NOT FOR YOU. You sound like a die-hard canister fan. I will defend Oreck to the death, and not because I work for them, but because I am a staunch believer in the product. I wonder if you'll have the same allegiance to Miele when you find out that the new models are being produced in China. Miele is pure markup as well (most of their canisters with power nozzles start at $7-800.00), and anybody that pays $1200.00 for a Red Velvet I think needs to get their head examined. For that kind of money, I would rather have a Kirby Sentria and get a lifetime warranty. What's the best warranty on a Miele? You will pay dearly for replacement parts as well, since everything comes from Germany. It's fairly obvious from the comments you make that you despise the Oreck. If that's the case, you should despise the Riccar equally so. And that's okay, because every day we convert two dozen or so people into loyal Oreck owners in our dealership alone. Most people today do not want to be bothered pushing a bulky power nozzle, and schlepping a clunky canister behind them.
I don't know what was wrong with the XL-21 you tested, but in our showroom that same vacuum devours rice, with no odors being expelled back into the air. You know darn well the Oreck cannot use a cogged belt, as it is a one motor system. It requires a flat belt (just as all other single motor uprights) that can break in the event an object gets jammed.
So, like I say the Oreck (and probably any other model upright) would not be for you. That's why Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors.
 
Oreck belts & Riccar differences

I actually think all of the sewing machine motor lightweight uprights serve a purpose in this life (not of which is to deep clean carpets however). They are great for older people or people who have certain disabilities that prevent them from using a full sized vacuum. As far the belt situation on an Oreck, for the average consumer, if everytime something got stuck in the vacuum the belt broke and had to be replaced, I can imagine that would get old. I guess that's why there is a storage place for an extra belt on the underside. It seems like the cogged belt nozzles with a reset button are much more effective as you only have to reach down and press the reset button. Warranty, warranty, warranty. Well.. I work for Electrolux, and with Electrolux or any other vacuum manufacturer, the warranty covers MANUFACTURERS DEFECTS ONLY, not WEAR AND TEAR. I can tell you that in 20 years, I will have most likely never had to bring my Miele in for a "TUNE UP" becuase it won't need one. There is nothing that will need to be tuned up, except for maybe a new brushroll eventually. I'm not sure where the idea came from that a Kirby has a lifetime warranty, because indeed, I have a friend who just purchased a Kirby Sentria and in the manual it states that there is a 3 year limited warranty on manufacturer defects. What might have spurred this idea is that Kirby does offer a lifetime offer to the ORIGINAL purchaser of the machine that for a certain price ($135, but subject to change according to the consumer price index) the machine may be sent back to Kirby to be rebuilt. I think Kirbys are fun machines and they definately have a cool look to them, but I certainly would not want one of these boat anchors as my daily driver. Again, I think these lightweights are great for older folks, or to pull out of the closet for a quick cleanup. I'll think I'll stick to my full size to guarantee that my carpets are indeed clean ;)

Derreck
 
The only Miele canister made in China is the S251 Plus, which I believe has been discontinued. The rest are made in Germany with oodles of quality built in.
 
The Miele is or was made in China?? I thought that both Sebo and Miele were only made in Germany! Gosh...even Germany is getting China to make their vacuums! Oh, well...I still love both of 'em!

~~K~~
 
For now, yes, but I happen to know from a few sources that the new line of Mieles is going to be produced in China. And yes, you will pay, and pay dearly for that German quality. Just as they soak you every time you visit the Mercedes dealer. I would rather buy an American made vacuum (like the Oreck), and have the parts readily available. Orecks don't need tune-ups, but it's a nice thing to have to keep the vacuum in peak operating condition. Let's face it, in 20 years your Miele will need parts replaced as well. Why do you refer to Orecks as "sewing machine motors?" At best, the low-end Mieles come with a turbo tool (which will do a good job, but nowhere near as good as a motorized power nozzle). As I already mentioned before Derreck, the Oreck CANNOT have a geared belt, as one motor drives the fan and the roller brush. You know that. If you want an Oreck canister with a geared belt, consider the Dutchtech. It has all the features of the Miele at a fraction of the price. I have one or two Mieles in my collection, but I really don't find them to be any better than the other canisters out there. If it has to be a canister, I'll pick my Electrolux Super J over the Miele any day of the week.
 
The Plus is still beeing sold, and is made in China. The S514 is also now made in China, but the quality is the same as any other Miele.
 
As to the life of the smaller motors VS larger motors. The Oreck motor is small and turns very fast (same for the Riccar RSL motor) this high speed will wear the small bearings out faster. Larget motors tend to turn slower, andh have larger bearings. Some larger motors are made cheaply, which will cause them to burn out quickly. A well made large motor, such as the Miele Vortex motor will last a long time and work efficiently, even if they are 12 amps.
 
So why can't they make a large motor with lower amperage that will do the same job and last a long time? I see nothing wrong with the Kirby 500 series motors. The only thing I've ever replaced on one of those is brushes. Unfortunately, most vacuums out there today boast 12 amp motors, not because they're better, but mainly because they drain alot of current, and burn out in a very short period of time.
 
I agree with you there. I prefer large slower turning motors with a lower amp rating. The reason for high amp motors is basically because people have been lead o believe that higher amps mean more power, which is not true.
 
I AM CORRECT in saying larger motors can last longer-its very simple-In vacuums such as Royal Everlast,Classic,any Kirby sereies,These motors are turning SLOWER than the Oreck and under less load.At one vacuum repair place out here-he has PILES of burned out Oreck motors.The Oreck belt DOES NOT always break if it hits something that jams the brush roll.the circuit breaker like on a Riccar can give that protection.Compact upright vacuums such as the Oreck,Riccar,these motors are smaller and turning at very high speeds to get any amount of air movement from the smaller fans on these.I am sceptical that any compact upright vacuum is going to last 20 years under normal usage.Then we would have the issue of fans and fancases on these machines.their tiny fans spinning at higher speeds than other uprights certianly face disaster if they hit a coin or nail.Yes-even with careful vacuum users this can happen--you can't always see where you are vacuuming.and these compact uprights can go into and under places where you may not be able to see what you are picking up.The Oreck is a nice little vacuum-but I can't see it lasting 20 years like a Kirby,Royal metal,etc.At both vacuum shops here-in their repair piles are MANY junked Orecks.Some are only a few years old.Only two stores here carry them-an appliance store here in Greeville and another in Kinston-thats where I tried the XL21.
 
For the price of two Oreck XL21s, You could get a Kirby Sentria with attachments/shampooer.
The Kirby Sentria outcleans and outlasts the Oreck XL21.
 
I own both a Kirby Sentria and 3 Orecks-the Kirby is the definte winner.And the Kirby doesn't need the compact canister with it.My Oreck canister just sits in a closet-a useless machine.The Oreck upright is a more useful machine than its companion mini-canister vacuum.If you presently own a Kirby machine-you can buy the Sentria at 50% off its regular price-then you can get the Kirby for only a few dollars more than the Oreck-and with kirby's Tech Drive-its even easier to push-pull than the Oreck.The Oreck is easier to lift and carry though.For the price of the Oreck-one could get the Sebo "Felix"a more powerful machine-and it can be used like a canister.
 
Kenmore/Bissell ProLite
6 amp motor
twin suction fans
160 cfm
about 4000 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
Riccar SupraLite/Simplicity Freedom
5.5 amp motor
single suction fan
106 cfm
about 4000 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
Oreck XL21 upright
4 amp motor
single suction fan
unknown cfm
5600 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
Oreck XL upright
4 amp motor
single suction fan
unknown cfm
6500 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
 
The Kenmore/Bissell ProLite is no longer available. However, It is available under the Powr-Flite/CFR names.
The Riccar SupraLite/Simplicity Freedom is now available under the Hoover name.
 
Kirby G3/G4/G5/G6/Ultimate G/Diamond Edition/Sentria
6 amps floor/7 amps hose
109 cfm floor/120 cfm hose
single suction fan
about 4000 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll aka QuadraSweep brushroll
 
I do have a vacuum cleaner that has a 12A motor-and can last a long time--how bout up to 50yrs-that is the NSS M1 "Pig" vacuum cleaner.The suction fan in these is almost 8" diameter and turns at a leisurely 8,000 RPM and can provide up to almost 200CFM airflow thru a 2"hose-1.5" hose will gve 150CFM.Sadly they aren't marketed to households-but commercially.I have three in my collection-and one of them is almost 30Yrs old and going strong.Replaced the brushes and bearings.and these jobs are EASY to do.The brushes on its large communtator are about 5/8" wide-can last for 2500Hrs.Ordinary vacuum motor brush specs are 500Hrs.
 
Kevlar? made up? its only the material that helmets/torso armour used by the army are made of :p

Ian
 
So you mean to say you use your NSS M1 "Pig" vacuum as your daily driver? I guess you like a vacuum that wastes electricity. I just can't see a need for a vacuum that uses all that amperage, and does the same job. You're right, in saying alot of Orecks will not last 20 years - those are the ones that get used and ABUSED. I've even had Orecks come in that vacuumed up dog sh--. I even pulled a thong out of an Oreck once. If you really tried, you could destroy an NSS "Pig" vacuum as well. However, I've seen many Orecks that have lasted the 20 years and then some. Like I say, the one I use on a regular basis is 22 years old, still has the original motor, fan, and fan housing and works great. I've even got some of the original XL-4000's that are 40 years old and still work.
"For the price of two Oreck XL-21's, you could get a Kirby Sentria with attachments/shampooer" - yes you're right about that. And that's fine for you and me, but most people today do not want to be bother schlepping a Kirby up and down stairs. When the Tech Drive is off, the unit is extremely heavy to transport, and how many people do you know of who actually use the shampooer? I just found a Kirby G5 thrown out in Jamaica, Queens with the shampooer never touched. Alot of people have difficulty even converting the vacuum to tool use. I've gotten several Kirby Generation 3's (among others) as trade-ins on new XL-21's.
Interesting story about the metaxalloy "kevlar" fans. Oreck switched to metaxalloy in 1998 for the new Millenium 2000 series machines. I was invited to the factory to watch an interesting demonstration where they shot through the fan with a 12-gauge shotgun. It left a clean hole in the fan, but the fan itself did not warp whatsoever. So even if a coin or a nail does hit the fan, worst that will happen is the fan housing breaks. If you're going to be vacuuming up such materials, you really should use a shop vac, or at the very least, the Buster B that came with the upright.
 
I have three Kirbys:
Kirby G3 with attachments/shampooer
Kirby Ultimate G Diamond Edition with attachments/shampooer
Kirby Sentria with attachments/shampooer
I have a carpet cleaning business. I charge $20 per room.
I use shampoo carpets with all of my Kirbys. I use Kirby Allergen Control Lavender scent carpet shampoo. I use Kirby Micron Magic 99.7% filtration bags.
 
I would like to have a cleaning contest pitting the Kirby Sentria against the Oreck XL21 upright/Oreck XL upright.
:)
 
Interesting about the Oreck fan-withstanding a gunshot-However at the real world vac places I help out at on weekends-they are replacing "Metaxalloy"fans at a routine rate.One has a bucket full of the Oreck fans he has replaced-and fancases as well.Usually the fancase goes with the fan.You need to really understand how universal motors work---On a motor like the NSS--it is very LIGHTLY loaded and turns at a low speed.It is not trying to turn a roller brush.I do have a separate powernozzle for the "Pig" would pit it against an Oreck anyday.The NSS has about 3 times the airflow of an Oreck.Just becuase you see a label on the motor nameplate of "12"A on the vacuum cleaner-that doesn't always mean the motor is drawing that much in actual use.That really means the current the motor could be loaded to in a laboratory test and work continuously without overheating or burning up.For most canister vacuums including the NSS-the motor is not being loaded to that value.Therefore it does run cooler.It is hard to feel any temp rise in the exhaust air as it runs.The Model M is one of my drivers.Use it for the really tough jobs.I would have to try harder to blow out a Model M as opposed to the Oreck.I think its interesting you still have some older Orecks that still work.you take care of your machines-in the "real" world others do not.thats why they don't last as long.Same with me-I take better care than most.Yes,I do use my Kirby shampooers.Have shampooers for most of mine in my collection.Lately I have been using "host" type cleaners for my carpets.these work really well and will not wet carpets.Oh on tough fans-would again give it to the "pig" hence the name-I used mine for a remodeling job cleanup at one of my friends house-did far better than a noisey Sears shop Vac.and beleive it or not the M1 fan ate J-box slugs,cable staples,even small nails and scraps of wire and came back for more.Was surprized to find these in the bag.they were all bent up or over.the blades on an M1 fan are over quarter in thick alluminum alloy.Never seen one of those broken.-nor its fan case-the fancase is lined with steel.And for less than the price of the two Orecks you can get an NSS "Pig"I use my pig for garage cleanups,cleaning out other vacuums,the paper shredder,and after the shopsmiths.and Oh yes I do use my Orecks on occasions as well.they are sort of fun to use.And yes they do better than the dysons I have in my collection.(DC07 and Dyson "Ball")The Dyson "Ball" vac has twin motors-one for the brush and other for suction.Will admit the little Oreck does better.And yes Dyson Vs Oreck-the Oreck is easier to push thanks to its "Helping Hand" woodplane style handle.the Orecks smaller head and body can get under things better than a Dyson.And yes I watch what I let the Oreck or any other fan first vac pick up.Well one time I let my freind try the M1-he did pick up a sock with it-the sock got into the M1 fan.Did stop it-and immiedately tripped the line breaker.got the sock out and the machine was fine!He was vacuuming under his bed-socks always hide in those places!!
 
High amp vs. low amp

Tolivac..

That is absolutely true.. just because a motor is 12 amps doesn't mean it is actually pulling 12 amps. For example, when I run my Miele on the 1200 watt setting, even with the powernozzle it is probably only pulling about 8 amps. You would have to jam the powernozzle motor and the vortex motor for it to pull the full 12 amps. For a vacuum to work properly, you have to have a brush that turns at a fast enough speed WITH enough suction to carry off the dirt. A 3.5 amp motor just can't do it. Expecting to get your carpets clean with a vacuum that uses one 3.5 amp motor is like expecting to win the Indianapolis 500 with a Ford Escort. Again, for $750, there are soooooo many better choices out there. That is sooo much to spend on a tiny motored upright and a buster bee vacuum with a tiny little bag that clogs quickly. There are lots of nice canister vacuums with nice powernozzles and nice attachments, and then you only need ONE vacuum that will do a very nice job.

Derreck
 
Yes,I also own a Meile Red Velvet-use this as well on occasions-all of my vacuums in my collection get used at some time or another.the Meile is a very good vacuum.They are very quiet and well designed.Plus very powerful for their size and remember the Meile "vortex" motor is SINGLE fan-and gives BETTER performance than many dual fan canister vacuums.Its how the fan is designed.I find it better to use the tools on my of my Kirbys than using the mini-canister that came with one of my Orecks.And the Kirby in the canister-hose mode sure moves more air and has better filtration than that "Buster-Bee" canister.Its tiny bag fills and clogs quickly and sometimes leaks dirt you just picked up-and yes-the bag and filter is in mine correctly.Oh yes on the Meile and other variable speed canisters-you can throttle the suction motor back on some of those delicate cleaning jobs-and the motor is just loafing.Very low current draw.And little heat.Modern switching PDM motor controls dissapate very little heat-have very low losses.I can remember the Oreck XL21 upright had two speeds-they suggested using the "low" speed for bare floors.I tried it at the Vacuum store in Kinston.The only full Oreck dealer in my area.He also carries Simplicity,Royal,and TriStar.
 
I have owned vacuum cleaner stores for 36 years, and worked in the business as a kid before that. I have refined my position on the Oreck. I used to dismiss it as a piece of sh*t. I still don't like it any better than before, but have come to the realization that it is the outrageous price they get for the thing that infuriates me. If they were honest, they would say that the Oreck is a great light duty, quick pick-up vacuum for use when you don't want to get the real vacuum out, and sell it for $100-$150. What consumers are really paying for is the huge national advertising budget. Repair parts - and Orecks need repairs a LOT - they do not hold up well at all - cost anywhere from three to five times as much as the equivalent parts for other vacuums. And Oreck may be a satisfactory vacuum for a little old lady living on an upper floor of the retirement apartments (where they don't get much dirt), but it seems a shame to stab an old lady for $400. Sanitaire offers the lightweight (10 lb.) Model 634 (a descendant of the Eureka 1400 series) which we sell for $149.95. It is a far superior machine to the Oreck in terms of cleaning efficiency, and holds up well. It is warranted for two years and five years on the motor. The more powerful Sanitaires using this same platform, but with larger motors, metal handles, and Vibra Groomer I or II brush rolls, clean better than any other upright vacuums currently available, and I sell the top of the line 677 for $329.95, half the cost of the most expensive Oreck, and at least ten times the machine. As far as I'm concerned, the Oreck is the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American buying public.
 

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