Tacony Tandem Air Suction Not Too Great

[wyaple]

1000 Airwatts!?

Mark,

What are the motor specs of that beast? The best I've seen from a single fan unit is about 700 peak airwatts.

Bill

 

[kirbylux77]

Stan, let me make this clear - The ONLY uprights ever put on the market, in my opinion, that can come ANYWHERE close to matching or exceeding a modern post-1990 canister vacuum's performance is the Tacony Tandem Air uprights, a post-1990 Royal Metal upright, or any Kirby made after 1980.

You cannot possibly claim that ALL uprights clean better than canisters. For starters, the motors in clean air uprights, whether bagged or bagless, produce less suction & airflow than canister motors. Forget how well the hose, wand & powerhead connections are sealed on a canister....the fact of the matter is, a modern, post-1990 canister vacuum's motor produces more suction & airflow than a competitor's upright from the same year. That easily overcomes any airflow losses & makes it clean better. And as for direct air uprights being superior? Well, the ONLY ones that actually work & are effective are the bell nozzle shaped uprights, like Royal & Kirby. All the others that have the fan & belt pulley placed at opposite ends, like 8 lb uprights & Hoover Elite, Dirt Devil Featherlite, Eureka Bravo, etc....They initially have good suction & airflow, but lose it very quickly with as little as 1/4 or 1/3 full bag of dirt. Same thing with the Hoover Convertible/Eureka F&G style uprights, & they also have the added disadvantage of burning thru their round belts much faster than uprights that use flat belts.

Rob

 

[n0oxy]

highest ratings for a central vacuum with one motor

I have a total of 7 central vacuum units, and while they clean very well, some have higher power than others. My most powerful models are the Purvac barracuda, this one uses a Dommel motor, 151 water lift and I think 144 CFM, it's quite powerful. Then there's the vacumaid SR800, it has the Ametek lamb 8.4 inch two fan motor, 142 CFM and 147 water lift, it's quite a beast. And then there's the vacumaid garage vac pro, this unit is designed to give you the power of a central vacuum without pipes, it just has a hose inlet right on the unit. It uses an Ametek 5.7 two fan motor, interestingly, even though it's a smaller motor, the specs are not that much different than the 8.4 motor, 138 water lift and 138 CFM, it will also have no problem cleaning whatever you give it;. Hooking a central vacuum hose directly to a central vacuum unit with no pipes is really something, I guarantee you that this set up, with a good power nozzle will out clean any upright on the market.
Mike

 

[wyaple]

Everyone, Please Be Careful When Quoting Specs

As far as I can tell people keep quoting RAW motor specs that do not represent cleaning power at the end of the hose. As an example, pictured below is an 8.4" double stage Ametek motor that can do 142 CFM at the motor base with a 2" opening. When that opening get reduced by the typical 1.125" hose, the airflow drops like a stone to 106 CFM. Now add handles, wands, u-joints required to actually get the airflow to a carpet nozzle and you can see just how much airflow loss is apparent.

The best upright I have measured so far is a Kirby Sentria II. Comparing apples to apples, the base of the motor tests at 177 CFM (with a HEPA bag) and then gets reduced to 137 CFM at the nozzle with the brush roll spinning.

Bill

 

[sptyks]

My Mistake...

Rob,


 


My apologies for any confusion. You are correct. I DID NOT intend to claim that ALL uprights deep clean better than a canister with PN. I meant to specify just Direct or Tandem Air uprights made after 2000, most specifically G series Kirby's and 9 and 10 amp Royals.


 


That being said, it did appear to me, I could be wrong, that the black upright vacuum in Mike's latest video is a Bypass air machine which did perform better than his canister with PN.


 


 

 

[n0oxy]

drop in airflow

What Bill says is true, there will be a drop in airflow once a hose is connected. When you turn on the garage vac pro that I mentioned in my previous post with no hose attached, the air coming out of the exhaust port is definitely more than when a hose is attached. This is why many say that using a central vacuum with two motors does not really provide much benefit, the airflow will still be restricted by the hose and any pipes that are installed.
Mike

 

[sebo4me]

You are correct the single motor produces 700 airwatts but there are twin motors that produce over 1000 airwatts and 200 CFM.

Yes of course airflow will be lost through the hose but the suction and airflow is still very strong and my carpets look extremely clean after using the central vac.
The results are more than good enough for me

 

[sebo4me]

I will be getting a twin motor central vac at some point.

Mike I think having 2 motors will be of benefit.Yew there will be a loss of airflow but if you're starting off with over 1000 airwatts and 200 CFM there's going to be more suction and airflow at the end of the hose than a single motor I would think.

 

[n0oxy]

two motor unit

It would be awesome to try hooking a central vacuum hose directly to a two motor unit to see the performance, unfortunately I don't have a 220 volt outlet here, and the units that use two large motors require that. There are two motor units that use two smaller motors that use 120 volts, but these motors are rather small and you will probably get better performance with one larger motor in this case.
Mike

 

[tolivac]

I have a dual motor NuTone CV450 that has two 6A motors-electrically they are connected in parallel-airpath wise they are in series.My other central units are quieter and more powerful.The NuTone runs on 120V. 240V units are not practical for me-there is 240V in my house of course for the range and dryer,and GE Advantium oven.Just not convenient to run a 240V central machine for me.My MD Silentmaster does just fine!

 

[sebo4me]

We use 240v in the UK as standard.

The MD Silent Master is excellent. I was thinking of getting the model that used to be the S5 with 2 motors. That is extremely powerful with 950 airwatts close to 200 cfm. It's also quiet at 62db.

They now have a true seal bag which is a closed bag that attaches to all 3 inlets and is still tapered like the open bag for maximum airflow.

 

[mike811]

Kirby vs canister vacuum cleaner (deep clean test)

Here it is. Kirby Gsix vs Nilfisk GM80.
This is video for those who wonder can a canister vacuum cleaner beat the Kirby.

 

[kenkart]

The secret is NOT how heavy a machine is

But it is that the upright can LIFT a carpet from the floor and vibrate it on a cushion of air, Hoover, Royal and Kirby advertised this for many years, The other advantage is that the air does not have to travel long distances thus losing airflow, and its a proven fact that a open face fan moves more air,...doesent have as much suction, but moves volumes more air...This being said,newer carpets are much harder to clean because they backs on many of them are not as porous as they were years ago, so air cant be drawn thru them....and the fact remains, straight suction does a better job on thin carpets that are glued down.

 

[tolivac]

The airlift method is fine for carpets that are not fully fastened to the subfloor-many commercial carpets are fully glued to the subflooring-the air lift won't work there-and those low pile commercial carpets have waterproof-airtight backings,
Wish the US would go to 220-240V for small appliances-would actually be more energy efficient.Remember when we say 14Ga cable can carry 15A-thats 1800W@120V-now at 240VDOUBLES (3600W)!!!And look up on the power pole feeding your homes "pole pig"(USA)that little strip of 14-10Ga cable is carrying up to 15A@7500V!!!!Your WHOLE home running off that!That primary cable is like 2-4 ft long-taps to the main overhead MV dist lines.Same with for URD distribution-the cable has to be heavily insulated since it is underground-but the size is the same.Oh yes-the "pole pig" is the distribution transformer that steps the 7500V primary voltage to 120/240V that feeds the house.For URD the ground mount transformer.My neighborhood has URD(Underground Residentual Distribution.The transformer actually powers four homes.Mine and the 3 neighbors.

 

[sebo4me]

Great video Mike. Your Nilfisk with the Wessel Werk PN does a fantastic job!What do you think of that Stan?

 

[kirbylux77]

Stan & Bill

Well, I guess this proves you two were totally wrong! Now there's NO WAY you can possibly say a modern canister can't clean as well as a direct-air upright.

Mikko, thanks for doing this test & posting it here & on YouTube. I think Stan & Bill are going to have to eat crow over this one

Rob

 

[sptyks]

Rex:


 


At 120 volts a 12 amp (1440 watts) vacuum is plenty of power to clean any home. Remember that a 12 amp 1440 watt vacuum at 120 volts is only drawing 6 amps at 240 volts. The wattage stays the same while the amperage is cut in half at 240 volts.


 


Marcus:


 


To me, it looks like the amount of rice in the glasses at the end of the test is pretty much exactly the same meaning the Nilfisk matched the performance of the Gsix which has 121 CFM. However the Sentria II and Avalir have 137 CFM and my 10 amp Royal 8300 has over 144 CFM so it is highly doubtful that the Nilfisk could keep up with any of those 3 upright vacuums. 


 


 


 


 

 

[sebo4me]

It will be very close.

As will a central vac with 200 CFM. Admittedly that is 200cfm at the unit.

I bet you weren't expecting that result were you

 

[sptyks]

Rob,


 


There's no Crow on my diet!


 As I said in Reply #35, the Nilfisk only matched the performance of the Gsix which is a 17 year old machine that has only 121 CFM. I still believe the Nilfisk would be no match for the much more modern Sentria II, Avalir, (137CFM) or the Royal 8300 (144CFM). So you can put that in your pipe and smoke it.


 


Besides, that model of Nilfisk is pretty rare. How many people do you know besides Mike that actually own one. Do you actually think the average Miele or Sebo canister with any PN can keep up with the Avalir or Royal 8300? 


 


~Stan


 


 


 


 

 

[wyaple]

Rob,

Let's take a look at what Mike actually accomplished in this video:

1) With two very, very, very slow completed passes on high, loose pile (and probably rubber backed, non-flow through) carpet, rice was vacuumed up.

2) The G6 is about 120 CFM at the nozzle and I'm guessing that the Nilfisk is about 88 CFM at the nozzle based on Mike's previous hose measurements (108 CFM).

3) The weaker Nilfisk was then used as a reference to vacuum up the remaining rice with 4 completed passes with a bag saver installed.

4) Results were shown and the Nilfisk picked up the same leftover rice on both sides of the carpet.

I could easily duplicate these results with any number of machines when using the weaker CFM one as "the reference." Mike doesn't have a Kirby dirt meter yet so he can't show the results using the Kirby as the final reference machine.

It is also possible that Mike's rice test doesn't require anything very powerful to clean his carpet well. Anything over 80 CFM might just be wasted.

The bag saver also reduces airflow considerably, so when he installed that on the Nilfisk, the CFM probably dropped to about 50 CFM at the nozzle. So Rob, are you ready to jump on the bandwagon that believes a 50 CFM reference canister can prove a 120 CFM upright as equal or even pointless? I'm certainly not.

Looks like I'll have to make a few more videos on my channel...

Bill