Original Kirby 508-512 Cloth Bag

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KirbyCollector01

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
790
Location
Columbus Ohio USA
Hello! I am looking for an original 508-512 style cloth bag for my 508, like the one in the picture (not my photo). If anyone has one they’re willing to part with ((even if it’s in rough shape) not too rough though) please let me know. I’d really appreciate it. Thank you!
-Thomas

kirbycollector-2019062320582805130_1.jpg
 
Hey Thomas . . .

Are you looking for an original shakeout-style bag because you actually use the machine that way? Or, is this primarily for your collection and doesn't really get much use?

I ask because I'm thinking about making some reproduction bags, but for use with a hepa bag system and the metal emtor.
 
If an original bag is in good shape, I’ll use it once in a while. But if it’s in rough shape, It’ll be just for looking at, and I’d use a different bag when using the machine.
 
I wouldn't pay over $100 . . . .

Based on my cost of building a prototype corduroy bag, anything over $100 for a reproduction bag seems expensive, even if it's made in the U.S. in small quantities. The actual cost of all the bag materials is around $10 to $15, depending on features. The rest is American labor and some profit to make the project worth the effort and amortize any art and screen printing charges.
 
Lol

Have you made a repro bag. You don't get it right the first time. There very cost intensive. Sewing material quality. I made a repro bag it's better than repro I made what I put into it. If anyone wants quality it's expensive. I can almost guarantee over a $100 into the bags. It may be close but he's not getting rich. So unless you make a high quality good bag hold judgement. If you make a premium bag people will pay. I can attest they will.
Les
 
Lol? Are you sure about that?

• No, I have not made a repro bag. I paid a professional seamstress to make a prototype sample and patterns for me instead. It was not expensive. Later, her company can make 2, or 200 for me.
• Yes, she made a perfect one the very first time. That's what professionals do and this is definitely not rocket science. She'll make the hanger 4" longer on the next one, but that's it.
• No, they are not "very cost intensive." I have no idea what you are talking about. It's just $6 worth of corduroy and a garter spring. Mine is more expensive because it has a zipper, internal hanger strap, 3-seam construction, and requires extra work to sew the top shut.
• No, quality is not expensive. It's just a bag. Garment sewing requires greater skill.
• No, I don't need to "hold judgement." I've already made and tested one, that means I know what I'm talking about.
 
Okay

I have sold the most expensive bag in eBay history. $350 .
I too hired a seamstress. She has a $10000 embroidery machine. There's about 2 of these machines per state. She did entire bag for me. I will say the bottom of the bag goes around the emtor I know what is used and it's the same as Kirby. I bought duvetyne exact material. It cost $120 plus for material. Top of bag takes certain material.
You may know some but I guarantee the bag I produced is best quality bacg anyone has sold. It's my opinion but nobody else has sold a bag for $350.
Look at my bag you will not see better. Embroidery doesn't wash away.
It took me and seamstress 7 months to get it right.
U don't mean to be cocky but no buts just look at the pic.

lesinutah-2019062908255605998_1.jpg

lesinutah-2019062908255605998_2.jpg
 
O

I bZg. Next I'd Mike's bag.
If you find something better.
The. 595 is a rare and super popular vacuum.
You may know what your doing but I believe I may know more about bags. My demdtress knows more not me.
No hard feelings but Mike's $250 mine $350.
Tell me what you think. If you got pics of love to see.
Les
 
Nice trademark violation

I can't believe I'm responding to this, but here we go:

• I don't care that you sold the most expensive bag in Ebay history. $350 is beyond overpriced.
• Embroidering the logo is nice, but it's not technically accurate, if you care about such things (which I don't necessarily do). All of the Kirby bags were screen printed, not embroidered.
• No, there are not just 2 embroidery machines per state. I have no idea what you are talking about. I've looked into embroidery. There are over a dozen computer-driven embroidery machines at screen printing shops near me. You pay by the stitch, so a $6 screen print could easily be $10 to over $50 per bag. Embroidery looks very nice and it will almost certainly last longer than a screen print, but it's not an efficient way to recreate graphics. That's why Kirby never made it that way.
• Duvetyne is just one material Kirby used. They also used lots of corduroy, including the original 513 bag I used for the pattern.
• Duvetyne is cheap. You can find 8.4 oz./yd. black duvetyne for as little as $3/yard. One yard can make 2 bags, so your material cost is even lower than mine.
• There are all sorts of Duvetyne available. Did you perform particle tests on various fabric and baseline that against the original Kirby duvetyne (presumably in mint condition)? I doubt it.
• Bill at VacLab has performed particle tests on my bag and it works great: 3x better filtration than an original D50 replacement bag. For 0.3 microns, he found 10k particles vs. 30k.
• The top of the 513 bag does not take "certain material." It uses standard corduroy. On my original 513 bag, it's the exact same corduroy I'm using, right down to the number of wales/inch.
• I find it humorous that you don't want to admit you are using a garter spring. This isn't some sort of proprietary feature. It's just a spring - no big deal if you can figure out where to get more.
• I don't like this idea of hiding info on this forum. It's very tempting to publish my exact materials and where you can buy them, although it will be a lot easier for everyone to just buy a finished bag.

HERE'S YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM:

• You are violating Kirby's trademark by reproducing it on an item that you sold for a profit! You even posted pics online and admitted your selling price. Not a good idea. You have NOT been granted permission by Kirby. How do I know this? Because I inquired at Kirby and their lawyer called me back to discuss this at length. They even sent me an official email stating their policy. I have been referred to their Engineering Dept. for the possibility that Kirby use my design (and supply chain) to make more bags. However, I'm expecting they won't be interested. Hopefully, I'm wrong about that.

• Their lawyer made it very clear to me that they will only grant permission if they decide to make it an official Kirby product. I can make this bag in a variety of colors to cover every machine from the Tradition back to the first Model C. However, I doubt Kirby will care about this since they only make black shakeout bags now.

• Since Kirby is likely to tell me no, I am considering the idea of asking my art director buddy who was my creative partner at the advertising agency we worked at in SF to design something new for these bags so they aren't just plain corduroy. However, that's probably a subject for another thread.
 
Layoff

Cease and desist. Bottom line Kirby would only tell me to stop. I sold one bag.
I'll consider my energy on this done. I've talked to 2 patent lawyers. I'm versed in what I need to know.
That's it
Les
 
Rvstg1

I got off a 14 hour shift before I slept and no contacts.
It meant to say pic 1 his bag pic 2 my bag. 505 is the model I meant to type
Les
 
Cease and Desist? What?

• This is about trademark, so you need to talk to a TRADEMARK lawyer, not a patent lawyer, although, occasionally you'll find one who does both.
• It doesn't matter what some trademark lawyer tells you. What matters is Kirby's tolerance for trademark violations by amateurs and whether they feel like taking you for an expensive little back-and-forth with their legal department. Maybe they won't care. Maybe they will.
• If you're just making one bag for yourself, I don't see why anyone would care. If you're selling them to other people and posting it online, that's different. That's why I contacted Kirby BEFORE wasting any time or money fooling around with their logo.
• You haven't heard from Kirby probably because they don't spend much time online looking for violators. Kirby's lawyer told me she was unfamiliar with this website. Now she is.
• Maybe you should "hold your judgement" next time you want to school people on simple devices like vacuum cleaner bags.
 
les

thanks for the clarification. Did you have several black old style bags made? I saw about 4 bags laying next to the one you were showing/presenting. I"d be interested in an old style bag perhaps if you want to trade or sell....for a reasonable price. I"ve tried emailing you at the address you have listed in your profile and from last year....but no response.
 
Embroidery

Yes there are about 2 per state. The logo is 17 inches. You have to have 2 loops.
Your right on screen print. I have a 505 bag. I hand cleaned and it washed away. I looked into screen print. The embroidery isn't oem but it doesn't fade. Screen prints fade.
You are correct on everything.
I had to sign legal forms and consulted with 2 patent lawyers and explain to seamstress legal stipulations.
She wouldn't make the bag until all bases were covered.
If you make a bag with Kirby logo it falls under same copyright issues.
The 505 bag is alot wider than the 508 bag. The 508 is curdouroy material. Duvetyne is 4 times the cost and very few companies sell it.
So your bag $100 to make is right. The bottom of the bag goes over the emtor it's not elastic. I can almost guarantee you won't duplicate that. If you buy from Kirby minimum is 200-250 springs. I'm not disclosing how I stumbled across mine. It was sheer luck.
So making the bag you can do. Mike's 510 bags are more than screen printed. The red material on bag topper and silver strip on it. I don't think I could make a better bag. His bags are oem. I went a different direction but his bags are awesome. You have to give him credit. He has bags for all Kirby's. The man can restore a vacuette and model c better than brand new. The man has sunk alot of money to make bags, wheels, manuals etc. I know he's spent over $10000 low end to make these items oem or better.
I may have sold one bag but duplicate the 510 bag then compare yours to his. You can't make better. I showed my seamstress the 510 bag and she said it was amazing.
I agree you can make good bags. It's Orem esque quality but mikes bags are the best.
Les
 
Abcplacenta

If you want to email me [email protected] I could explain further and I would love to here your process and compare to mine and be civil. [email protected]
The bag springs are not garter springs. I used exact same spring Kirby does. I took a spring off one of my tattered bags and the springs match.
It's up to you but arguing over vacuum board is wasting energy.
Les
 
My Thoughts

I wouldn't think Kirby lawyers would care, nor do I think its even a violation to reproduce a replacement part with the logo. Your making a bag for a Kirby Vacuum. Now if you put it on a debadged Hoover and tried to sell it as your own then there would be a problem. I see people make and sell stuff that has trademarked logos all the time. How many times has someone used a Chevrolet logo on something and mass produced it? Tons! 350 in my opnion is way too much for something that is not original. Your right, embroidered is not the way it was done back in the day. However if I had a showpiece with sentimental value, I would consider it....but to be correct on making one as original as possible, it would have to be screenprinted. I would be cringe everytime I turned it on with a 350 dollar bag on it, LOL

Blaze
 
Blaze: actually, it is a violation . . .

• Yes, it is a violation and Kirbys lawyers care. That's why they sent me an official response.
• Putting a "kirby-branded" bag on a Hoover is totally unrelated. It doesn't matter what machine you put it on. What matters is that you reproduced another company's logo and then tried to pass off a replacement part as OEM when it's not.
• I contacted their legal dept. because I didn't want to screen print a bunch of bags, post the pics online, then have Kirby tell me to stop. I've worked in advertising, I respect trademarks and brands, so that's why I contacted them first.
• I know a couple of Kirby dealers who are interested in selling these bags. However, they'll lose their dealerships if they sell improperly branded Kirby replacement parts.
• You're right that there are all sorts of illegally sanctioned items, like Chevy doormats or T-Shirts, that use someone else's brand without permission. Lots of stuff flies under the radar. However, if you started making Chevy auto parts and put the Chevy logo on them, you'll definitely hear from GM's lawyers.
• Some companies are very aggressive about this. Monster Cable, the speaker wire company, is notorious for harassing anyone who uses the word "Monster." They once sued a mom and pop dry cleaning company called "Monster Dry Cleaning." Imagine what they would do to someone making replacement wires with the Monster logo?

The reason why vacuum cleaner companies put their logo on their bags is because it's the best way to protect their revenue for OEM replacement parts. They can't patent the actual bag, so they put their logo all over it. Copy that design with their logo and they can shut you down for a trademark violation, not a patent violation.


Maybe Tom Gasko can shed more light on this subject. I am sure he knows far more than I do about the history of brands going after bojack suppliers that put OEM logos on their parts.
 
Hey Les, post your materials!

There is no reason to have a private conversation about this.

I thought the whole point of this forum was to get help from other enthusiasts, not hide information under the guise that it's somehow proprietary? I am more than happy to post all of the materials in my bag design, including the cost of every part and the supplier.

So, the ball is in your court, Les. What spring did you use? Where did you buy it? What did it cost? What other bag-related materials and secrets have you discovered? Post it on here and I'll post my entire design, including the corduroy, bag spring, trim and zipper. It's really no big deal. But I don't like this idea of hiding info. That's bad vacuum cleaner Karma. I'm not doing any of this for the money because there is no money to be made in this. My only goal is to not LOSE money. My time is money, so anything (or anyone) who can help make this bag project easier is appreciated. Anyone who plays "hide the info," is not.
 

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