James Dyson: "The EU should spur invention, not mediocrity"

[DesertTortoise]

I am having my first experience with a bagless machine. A departed room mate of my fiancee left a Eureka Maxima thing that didn't suck (the only thing about that woman that didn't suck but I digress). For giggles this weekend I removed the filters and cleaned it out. Both filters were clogged solid and as I removed parts I shooke the machine and it's hose out on the garage floor. It looked like she had been vacuuming a vacant lot all the rocks that came out. In fact the entire machine was covered with a tan film, looking like a car that had been driven on a desert road after a thunderstorm washed mud onto the pavement.

There are too many U shaped low spots in those vacuums to trap dirt. I had to turn it upside down with all the covers removed, stretch the hose out and shake the thing vigorously to get all the dirt out of it. Junk! I still want to pull the bottom plate and clean out the brush area thoroughly. The brush itself looks ok, still some bristle sticking out past the bottom plate and nothing wrapped around the brush roll.

I'll buy new filters and see what that does. It's a free vacuum so it's kind of a science project but it does point out that people are clueless how to take care of their vacuums and let what I am betting will be a halfway decent working machine get tossed in the trash out of ignorance about how to maintain it.

Btw, emptying the container and removing the filter are not very clean. You really hae to wash the container out or wipe it with a damp rag to get it clean. I can't see any advantage to bagless compared to a good bagged vacuum. They strike me as dirtier than a good bagged machine.

 

[DesertTortoise]

Turbo500, it is quite normal in the US for manufacturers of household durable goods to either recycle trade ins that are not economical to repair or to donate to charity items that can be repaired cheaply and put back into use. Most states have laws that encourage, even require, this to happen to alleviate the demand for scarce landfill space. I don't know about your state but California has required 50% of all municipal solid waste to be diverted from landfills since 1990. The bigger cities exceed this. By 2020 75% of all municipal solid waste is required to be diverted from landfills. What is driving this is the cost and difficulty of siting new landfills. Btw, this applies to pretty much all consumer durable goods, not just vacuums. TV, refrigerators, washers and dryers, etc. all have similar recycling/charity donation programs associated with them.

Here are some examples on different company websites of what you say doesn't happen:

http://thinkoutsidethebin.com/2011/10/25/recycle-old-vacuum-cleaners/

http://www.att.com/gen/general?pid=20369

Read down to the very bottom of this link:

http://www.vacauthority.com/why-vacuum-authority.htm

There are countless examples I could spend all day linking. I think you get the idea however.

 

[sebo_fan]

dYson boy - I have no idea what you are on about, either sorry.

As collectors we know we can be gentle with a fragile vacuum AND a heavy duty one - Average Joe doesn't know the difference and these days, due to the threat of cheaply priced plastic vacs, ignorance becomes the next level playing card whereby if it is broke, replace it, since it is cheap to buy instead of maintain and repair.

Then there are the owners who baulk this trend, who don't treat a plastic vac with disdain, who maintain it regularly and may well find that the plastic-vac actually lasts longer than they thought it would.

But, above all of that, only a FEW brands in the UK offer spares availability, and I'm going further here than the common filter, dust bag or drive belt.

To return to the original posting of this topic, and further info I also added elsewhere, the average customer in the face of our British recession has had to either make do and mend or just not have whatever gadget or machine they have been so used to in replacing due to cheap cost prices. As a nation we've not been able to do that for some time and as a result, brands such as Numatic, SEBO and to a latter extent Miele have made spares more readily available in light of the "make do and mend" approach.

Though I welcome the new EU law with open arms, I won't be throwing out my 2000 watt Miele S6 just because it happens to have far too much rated power. It may well be harder to sell on in the future if I keep in good condition.

 

[DesertTortoise]

Why sell it Sebo_fan? If it does what you need a vacuum to do and you can repair it, why not just keep using it? My "daily drivers" are a pair of 30 something year old Kenmore canisters. I have a modern upright but it won't even begin to replace those canisters. Not even close. Modern canisters are so flimsy they feel like I am going to break them even when I handle them gently. Do you think a new Kenmore Intuition canister will survive three decades of normal use like my old Kenmores have? I don't.

 

[sptyks]

Turbo500,


 


I would put my 50 year old 600 watt Kirby Dual Sanitronic 50 up against any bypass air vacuum under 800 watts that you may have and we'll see which machine can pull the most dirt out of a carpet.

 

[DesertTortoise]

Whew, if this and a couple of other threads get any nastier the board may have to start a new subject area called "Contemptorary". Easy everyone, it's just a hobby!

 

[turbo500]

My point was not that a clean air vs. dirty fan debate. The point is that a clean air machine under 800w can, did and no doubt will perform to a high standard and clean carpets to the same acceptable level as a higher wattage clean air machine.


 


I have a 700w Panasonic upright with excellent suction and an 800w Hoover Turbopower 2, again with excellent suction. A lower wattage motor, with the right design, can generate strong suction power. Dirty fan doesn't even come into it.

 

[Gr8DaneDad]

I have many Electrolux vacuums from the 40's to the 70's with motors ranging from 475-525 watts that will out clean most other vacuums regardless of date of manufacture and will out clean their newer Aerus siblings with 11 amp motors (1320 watts, more than twice the wattage). Furthermore, all of them are quiet and none run very warm at all... they all depend on superior design of the motor with 2 fans, and all will continue to clean well with minimal maintenance indefinitely. I too have a D50 with a 500 watt motor that I'll gladly put up against any vacuum, no matter the wattage, because even if it's not better, it will only be marginally worse and it will still be working in 50 more years of use.


 

 

[DesertTortoise]

I dunno Turbo500? That "dirty fan" Ametek Lamb 115923 motor used in some Kenmore, Panasonic and even some early Meile canister vacums tests at 100.5 inches of sealed water lift and 122 cfm airflow. How many bypass, or dirty fan motors for that matter, in modern production vacuums can beat those numbers? Darn few if any that I'm aware of. For a 5.7 inch motor, that is very high performance.

There is a claim out there that brushless AC motors provide four or five times the durability of carbon brush motors, all else being equal. But I have decades old Kenmore carbon brush motor vacuums that have been used weekly and the carbon brushes show less than half wear. The brushes in the early 1990's vintage 4.1 are as long as new brushes. It's a thing of beauty to unbutton this old Kenmore and see that. Sure the claim might be true but will I live long enough to realize the difference? Like much in engineering, the compromises you make to implement a technology in a given application as much determine the ultimate performance of that application as the particular type of technology chosen. Dirty fan vs clean fan? It depends on the materials, design and how they are applied.

 

[vintagerepairer]

Until...

...some clever person conducts real-life tests to show the harm and side-effects (if indeed any -to play devils advocate, if I may) of debris on a carpeted surface, the whole debate as to which vacuum cleaner removes more dirt from it is completely redundant anyway.

There are already suggestions out there that carpets are in some ways healthier in living areas than hard floors, as the latter allow dust and debris to become airborne very easily, whereas a carpet does at least hold onto it. As long as one does not spend much time on the floor (and given my age it is likely I will, should I have another fall), then a carpet which looks clean is probably clean enough. You walk on floors, you don't eat off them.

Which brings me to the next point; hard surfaces need very little suction power to clean them anyway. It is only carpets which seem to require a good suction power.

Turbomaster1984 got it right when he/she said that the money saved from using less electricity is better off in our pockets than that of the energy company, no matter what the saving. Also, I agree that there are too many variables to make sound assessments as to how much electricity might be consumed and / or saved by the new EU regulations overall, but one fact stands out head and shoulders above the rest, and that is if a new vacuum cleaner rated at 900w replaces one that was 1800w, for every second that new cleaner is in use, it is literally using half the amount of electricity. When you think that an appliance still has to perform well in order for someone to buy it (thus the manufacturers are now working hard to achieve such status with lower wattage motors), this cannot be bad for any consumer.

 

[DesertTortoise]

In theory my Windsor upright should be a better vacuum and clean better than my ancient Kenmore with their old Panasonic Powermates. But in real life the belt sensor on the Windsor has a little Teutonic hissy fit on deep pile carpet and misinterprets the drag on the brush as a jam, flashing it's little red light at me a New York nanosecond before the vacuum stops. The old Kenmore doesn't have a belt sensor. If you misuse it you can break the belt. Guess which vacuum is better on carpet? Not the one most would predict. Again, it is as much about how a technology is implemented as the level of technology chosen.

 

[hi-loswitch98]

To carry on from what vintagerepairer mentioned about hard floors needing very little suction power, doesn't beko1987 use the lowest setting on his Miele for hard floors?

 

[sebo_fan]

Planned Ownership vs Planned Obsolescence

Well, Gr8DaneDad, the problem with owning a modern vac these days is getting parts for it later on and very much falls down to what the brand at the time keeps in stock where spares are concerned. Planned ownership in the eyes of the brand easily gets lost with planned obsolescence.

Some of our collectors, have realised that finding parts for Hoover's Turbopower 2/3 difficult to find. One might argue and say that Hoover never claimed those were lifetime models, but to cut the model's life expectancy short with a lack of brand new replacement brush rolls means for the most part, owners either have to decide whether they are going to throw the vacuum away or depend on 2nd hand parts until that stock part may return - or never return.

Same with the outer soft bags on Hoover uprights - one of my pet hates was having to use a generic soft bag when the original one on any one of my Hoover classic vintage uprights might tear or break. As collectors will tell you, finding an outer soft bag for the model you own is as rare as hen's teeth.

Another thought - cleaning hard floors. They are usually non-porous, like wooden shelves - you can use whatever power setting you like when it comes to cleaning hard floors in general - I use high power - I can't abide low power on hard floors - takes far too long dependent on how dirty the hard floor is.

Carpet is different - it often requires EITHER a deep brush roll or high enough suction with gentle brush roll so that it doesn't destroy the carpet. Something I wish my early Dyson uprights didn't have such a knack of doing.

DesertTortoise - you have already mentioned about your Windsor Sensor and how the electronics prevent it from going deeper into the pile. But both Windsor and SEBO don't advertise the X as a deep cleaning vacuum cleaner. It has always claimed to clean gently as well as offer far better value for money and easily replaceable AND repairable by the owner. Also, I don't know what the parts are like for your Kenmore but SEBO are like Kirby, Numatic - parts for most models are always available.

 

[sebo_fan]

My other fear is that even with an EU law coming in, brands won't do much in terms of a redesign, other than rely on Wessel Werk floor heads and a little fettling here and there to a basic design.

 

[sptyks]

Vintagetrepairer,

You said: " the whole debate as to which vacuum cleaner removes more dirt from it is completely redundant anyway... You walk on floors, you don't eat off them. "


 


Well I beg to differ. We all need a vacuum cleaner, weather it be Direct air or Bypass air, that will remove as much dirt as possible from our carpets. The reason is that fine dirt and sand which is not visible to the naked eye is what causes carpets to wear out prematurely. That fine dirt and sand that is left behind by an inefficient or inadequately powered vacuum cleaner, when walked on, acts like sandpaper wearing away the fibers in your carpet. You must ask yourself - Is it better to save a few quid on electricity in a year, or save hundreds by extending the life of your carpet by several years?

 

[turbomaster1984]

but didnt we already establish that 250w is enough to clean a carpet perfectly on a bagged machine?

So why the extra power need?

Fine tuning this design on a TANDEM air machine like I mentioned means LOWER wattages on average and far lower than any cyclone machine could even scores out with.

Low cleaning performance wont be an issue with grading the cleaning performance. Washing machines were scored very successfully this way until manufacturers got their acts toghether in the design department instead of lowering water levels on the same machine design they now maximise water thru cascading paddles and jets in the drums designed for the job.

 

[turbo500]

As has been said before, it's been proven many times before (certainly on the UK market at least) that a vacuum can generate a lot of suction power with a low wattage motor. I have clean air machines of various wattage's from a 500w Electrolux 502 to a 1000w Panasonic and all clean the carpet very well.

See video below. This is a clean air upright from 1989 with a 560w twin-fan motor. Good carpet agitation and strong suction. What more do you want from an upright?



Numatic have just proven that with a 580w cleaner that generates 10% more airflow than their previous 1200w cleaner.

Dirty fan uprights have been a thing of the past for years. There hasn't been a widely available dirty fan upright since 2001 when the Hoover Turbopower was phased out. Apart from Kirby, there isn't a dirty fan upright on sale in the UK and due to the poor hose suction of cheaper dirty fan uprights and the inconvenience of having to take half the cleaner apart to use the hose, they're not really that likely to make a comeback.

 

[sebo_fan]

Not that old chestnut again...

We all need a vacuum cleaner, yes.

We don't need a machine that will destroy our carpets with overuse. That's the marketing truth behind the nonsense that Hoover used to advertise with the "dirt you can't see that is grinding away your fibres.."

In reality, excess brush rolls tears carpet pile apart, not to mention over-vacuuming.

A vacuum cleaner should just be able to keep things looking cleaning. After all, we can't be sure whether a carpet is really clean unless you microscopically analyse your carpet.

On the basis that I have wool carpets I have to be careful with my dirty fan upright. I can't use it for everything because it deep cleans and removes the wool. Softer bristles lessen the wear on the carpets and in this day and age I'd like to have BOTH - a good choice of brush roll or vacuum cleaner that I know is not going to be aggressive but ALSO cleans and is ALSO economical to run.

That's why I adore SEBO's X1 Auto and Felix uprights.

 

[turbo500]

or, there's this. 550w clean air motor. Still manages to cling to the carpet with ease.

 

[sptyks]

I wasn't trying to push one type of vacuum over another. It doesn't matter if it's Clean air or Dirty fan and wattage doesn't matter as long as it has <span style="font-size: 14pt;">sufficient power</span> to thoroughly clean a carpet.


 


I would much rather KNOW that my carpet is <span style="font-size: 19.09090805053711px;">as CLEAN as it can be</span> and not just LOOK clean. I think there are many folks here on vacuumland that share this opinion.