James Dyson: "The EU should spur invention, not mediocrity"

[sebo_fan]

Fantasy meets reality

Whilst I agree that the laws are good and i.e will make brands do a little more work rather than re-tarting up existing models with new hoods, colours etc, I think there's a danger here of not knowing the actual saving of money where lower powered vacuums in a UK domestic home are concerned.

There has been no actual "real time" data published in the UK as yet that shows that there can be a saving. Equivalent reports available in the U.S state that as little as $8 every 3 to 5 years, which is something like £4-70 to £5 every 3 to 5 years. Provided that your model is going to last that long, it's still very much up in the air what kind of saving a domestic vac owner is going to make compared to the norm.

 

[turbo500]

It's not just the energy saving, Nar, it's the amount of cheapo-crap vacuums that end up down the tip, clogging up landfills. Mr. Dyson raised the point in his article, albeit rather hypocritically. If you pay a visit to your local household waste site, the pens are FULL of cheap, bagless vacuums. We had a big clear out ready to move just a few months ago and I went for a nosey in the electricals. There was a heap of vacuums piled up, all of them bagless. From memory, a few Vax uprights, a Hoover Dustmanager, about 4 cheap store brand vacs and then a whole pen FULL of Dyson's, from DC01's right up to DC24's.

It's not just the wasteful energy that these 2200w vacuums are using, but the damaged caused when they break within a few years and get sent to the tip. Nobody gets anything repaired anymore as it's so cheap to buy new. If vacuums are more reliable, the less will end up at the tip - another point that Mr. Dyson is
sh!tting himself over. LESS SALES.

 

[turbomaster1984]

Given I use our cleaner for approx 1 hour a week in total @ 14p a kw/h using a 2000w Miele costs me 28p.

That adds up to £14.56 a year.

Given I could use a cleaner averaging 500w for my weekly cleam brings it down to £3.64 SAVING ME £10.92.

I know Id rather that 11 quid personally saved even if it was just the cost a o bottle or 3 of plonk than go to some fat cat at npower.

 

[sebo_fan]

Well it might even be cheaper for you if you don't use your vacuum per hour in your weekly cleaning session.

That's the problem though, Rob. There are so many variables in how many times an average Joe uses a vacuum, and how is that saving calculated? Not all people who own a vacuum cleaner in a home will necessarily require to use it to clean up 2.4 children, 2 pets, etc.

I think the infinite possibilities from usage are just that - infinite possibilities - and where it would be impossible to calculate what saving you will find unless it is based on averages.

Claiming that vacuum cleaners will save on energy has to be proved right down to the last unit of power used. Otherwise, we may as well just use cordless vacuums and robotics for the rest.

Or perhaps that is what the industry wants us to do?

 

[turbomaster1984]

Nar at the end of the day a saving is a saving. and if its cost no initial outlay then all the more to gain.

A million customers getting a pound each knocked off their leccy bill because their cleaner uses less electricty soon mounts up to energy companies getting less each year.

Given they dont think twice about adding a % to everyones bill yearly knowing we cant do anything about it I welcome consumers getting lower energy using gadgets in the fight back!

 

[ralph123]

will it save any money if consumers end up having to vacuum longer, or possibly link up several vacuums in "monster vac" fashion to get enough power to clean? Or if cyclonic vacuums clog their filters since they are underpowered and cannot spin the dirt out of the airstream?

Maybe next they can require washing machines to clean a load of laundry with 1 cup of water. Wouldn't that be efficient?

 

[ralph123]

If you're worried about vacuums in landfills, then rewarding Dyson for having a recycling program is the way to go. There will always be cheap vacuums because consumers demand them.

Perhaps to save energy vacuums should have meters such that they can only be used 10 minutes per week. That would certainly save energy.

 

[turbomaster1984]

Ralph your trolling the wrong people here.

Our washers use 1/3 to 1/4 of the water american machines use and we get better wash results.

Low wattage cleaners clean better than high wattage cleaners just because they are designed better. What would you pick? A Hoover Convertible using 400watts or a 1200w miele straight suction cylinder.

Seems like you know very little.

 

[turbo500]

The early 90's seems to be the high point of low energy-high suction power. Electrolux Contour, Hoover Turbopower 2, Panasonic 40 & 50 series - all clean air uprights with excellent suction, certainly enough to rival a model cleaner, and none of them are over 900w.

The key is design. If a cleaner is well designed and thought out, it's entirely possible that cleaners can still have a strong suck without the need for excessive motor wattage. The Dyson Ball cylinders with the digital motor are only 1050w and they really pack a punch suction wise. Numatic have just proved high suction is possible with their new machines, rated at 580w.

Not to mention, motor wattage in the US has been limited for a long time. I believe the max is 1400w? And yet, none of our friends in the US are complaining that there chosen vacuums aren't cleaning properly.

 

[turbo500]

rewarding Dyson for having a recycling program

Just what do you think Dyson do with all those trade in's? The company can't reuse them, because the parts are not compatible with Dyson cleaners. He won't sell them on, because that would give a competitor more attention and GOD FORBID that happens, eh James?

They get stuffed in a landfill just like all those other vacuums at the tip.

 

[sptyks]

FYI - American vacuum wattage...

is restricted to 1440 watts so as to not overload our household circuits which are designed to carry a maximum of 1800 watts at 120 volts. Now except for electric stoves and clothes dryers which run on 240 volts with a circuit capacity of 7200 watts.


 


This law was passed over 20 years ago, not for environmental purposes but for safety reasons.


 


Now most of our modern american cleaners, bagged and bagless, are rated at 1320 to 1440 watts and they clean very well. (1320 watts = 11 amps. 1440 watts = 12 amps)

 

[turbo500]

not for environmental purposes but for safety reasons

Thank you for confirming, Sptyks.

However, the point still stands. With vacuums being capped at 1440w, many manufacturers have proven that one can still clean a carpet and generate high suction power with much less than that.

I've yet to see any of our us members complaining about the performance of a Rainbow, Riccar, Filter Queen or Kirby, for example. The UK FQ's are rated 800w, I imagine the US ones are similar, and yet they clean to a very high standard.

 

[sptyks]

Turbo 500,

You are correct, there are very few complaints here regarding vacuum performance. The Riccar Tandem Air is probably one of the best performing household upright vacuums in the world. This is at a power rating of 11 amps or 1320 watts. (That's with 2 motors).


 


The biggest problem we face is with cheap plastic vacs that clean very well at first but either break down or the filters get clogged very soon and are therefore thrown away because the owner neglects to clean the filters. Our landfills are becoming full of these.

[this post was last edited: 6/23/2014-11:15]

 

[dys0nb0y]

I actually do know what they do with the vacuum they Get in Traded in. If the machine is in good condition and Can save They will Do it up And then Give it to families that can't afford vacuum cleaner And if it's too broken they will Take the metal out of it and it will melt down the plastic and Reuse it or sell it I know this Because I used to know someone that work for Dyson[this post was last edited: 6/23/2014-13:17]

 

[ralph123]

turbomaster1984 said: "Ralph your trolling the wrong people here. Our washers use 1/3 to 1/4 of the water american machines use and we get better wash results.
Low wattage cleaners clean better than high wattage cleaners just because they are designed better. What would you pick? A Hoover Convertible using 400watts or a 1200w miele straight suction cylinder. Seems like you know very little."

turbomaster1984 - I have had a front load washing machine since 1999. My USA washing machine uses 10-14 gallons per load. So please let me know which brand washing machine you have that uses 2.5 to 3.5 gallons of water.

So are you suggesting that 400 watts should be the limit for all vacuum cleaners in the EU?

 

[turbo500]

400 watts should be the limit

Not at all. But if strong suction can be generated using lower wattages, thus resulting in more reliable vacuums and a saving on energy, then surely that can only be a good thing.

FYI, Dysonboy, I'm not Sebo_Fan and I think what you're saying is poop, quite frankly. Why would a vacuum cleaner company give away vacuums? Especially competitors vacuums. It's a ridiculous idea and I think it's quite obvious that certain vacuum manufactures won't do anything unless there's a profit in it. I think the same could be said for most, if not all, vacuum companies.

 

[turbo500]

Also, notice how Mr. Dyson is the only person moaning about it. We've not heard a peep out of TTI, Candy, Electrolux or Miele. Numatic seem to have embraced the legislation with open arms. Quite telling really.

 

[DesertTortoise]

California started imposing energy efficiency standards on home appliances a couple of decades ago, not so much for environmental reasons but to reduce the growth in the demand on the electric grid. The modern US household puts about four times the demand on the grid that the 1960's household did. Big screen TVs and your cable or satellite dish box are two of the highest wattage devices in your home. Some cable boxes are rated to 800 watts, and that box is on day and night spinning the meter. The standards have been so successful that the standards have been applied across the US. They have saved California from having to site and build a lot of powerplants it otherwise would have had to build, at a savings to the rate payers, and it has somewhat reduced the costs to upgrade residential grids to handle the increasing loads put on them by computers, TVs and cable boxes in every room. I think those of us who understand the problem think it is more economical to restrict the growth in electrical demand by such regulstion rather than simply try to build more power plants.

Just my two cents. I won't always run European regs down, they have a much internet service than the US, and I will take a German autobahn over one of our dilapidated freeways any day of the week.

 

[sptyks]

I'm sorry,

but I think that if a vacuum cleaner needs to clean exceptionally well and consume less than 800 watts, then it will need to be of a "Direct Air" design like the Hoover Convertable or the Kirby.

 

[turbo500]

Well I'm sorry, sptyks, but you thought wrong. I own cleaners that prove you wrong.