Is the Kirby's airflow and performance over exaggerated?

[vacfan1982]

Have you ever seen carpet used in a hospital Bill?

Anyway I get told off for giving my opinions so I'll go away now. Happy vacuuming guys n gals

 

[vaclab]

RE: Jon in Reply #12

You NAILED it! Exactly right.

If you need to pump water (fluid) and/or lift an item (bowling balls, etc.), high suction is required. If you need to move dirt in a volume in air, airflow is required. Keep the air moving and you keep the dirt contained in it moving.

Bill

 

[vaclab]

Do You Live In A Hospital?

Since people don't normally live in Hospitals, that point is invalid. Also, hospitals use different methods of cleaning floors/hallways than residential homes. I also don't wear a hazmat suit although that might be the safest place to be at the moment.

Completely inappropriate comparison.

 

[o0john0o]

Totally agree about Carpets vs Bare Floors

I don’t need scientific test either. I am living it. I have hardwoods. They sound nice, but any animal hair dust or pollen gets kicked up as people walk through our house causing me allergies, because I’m breathing it. Worse yet when you walk through the house your socks will act as a magnet for all the mentioned. I don’t have time to vacuum 3 times per day. I wish I had a high pile carpet to act as a filter until I can vacuum once per day.

Yes if you didn’t have a good vacuum, I see how carpets could be a bad idea, but if I had a Kirby and high pile carpets, I’m sure my allergies would be less of an issue.

Just my thoughts.

 

[gottahaveahoove]

I have: hardwood, ceramic tile, and wool carpeting

I used a Kirby in a church, when I worked there. It was very strong. The carpet was commercial, as well.
Hoovers are all that's used here in my place. The wool Chinese rugs still 'shed'. The rest is Karastan.. sheds, too.
Kirby cleaners were never used in my house, but, I know how strong they can be.
But, all of my Hoovers (with genuine Hoover bags) do a fine job here in this old place.
Good luck. let's be peaceful. The world is nasty enough without us helping.

 

[vacuumdevil]

@vacfan1982

Well I definitely think you're right on here people definitely exaggerated how well Kirby's clean. I've always found him to be just average (slightly below-average in 2020) in terms of cleaning ability.

In order for a vacuum to clean really well it must have high airflow and water lift.
Then all that must be put into well engineer design.
One of the problems with the Kirby is the nozzle design is square and quite outdated.

I made the argument years ago in a video that a Kirby doesn't really clean any better than most straight suction vacuum cleaners these days.




This is an unpopular opinion on vacuum land but these are the facts the way I have seen it over the years and used literally thousands of different vacuums.
All that being said a Kirby belongs in every vacuum cleaners collection.

 

[vacfan1982]

Thanks Alex good to see someone who speaks the truth about Kirbys on here

 

[vacfan1982]

When you agitate carpet it has been shown that the fine dust and allergens can become airborne also dust mites the major cause of indoors allergies are easily removed from hardfloors but they cling to carpet fibres.

And clearly hospitals will choose the most hygienic flooring and that isn't carpet.

Speak to any allergy consultant and they will tell you to remove carpeting.

 

[vaclab]

Alex, You Perform No Quantified Testing And Promote

False testing methodologies like "working water lift". You have no scientific/repeatable results that I know of. I debunked working water lift in thread a while back. No one uses it except you and it doesn't prove anything at all. A Kirby DS80 cleans fine dust very well with pathetically low levels of suction.



Mark,

The reason hospitals don't use carpet is a practical one. Cleanup. Imagine what a pain it would be to scrub out urine, feces, vomit and blood. It is much more expedient to simply wipe/mop/water extract it.

So it's obvious no-one has read the recently released article I posted, so I'll post a snippet here:

https://carpet-rug.org/study-shows-carpet-is-a-viable-choice-for-asthma-and-allergy-sufferers/

=========================

In Phase One of the studies, several types of new carpet, as well as new hardwood floor samples, were uniformly soiled with dust and allergens. Researchers found that, even before the carpet was cleaned, the levels of allergens, including cat and dust mite allergens, were lower in the air over all of the carpets than over the hardwood flooring, even after both flooring types were repeatedly disturbed by activities such as walking or bouncing a ball.

=========================

Again, the ignorance on this thread is astounding, especially from people who perform no appreciable scientific testing.

I've said all I have to say on the matter and everyone is certainly entitled to whatever fantasy they prefer, especially when it involves no rigorous testing and data analysis.

Bill

 

[vacfan1982]

I repeat dust mites are easily removed from hardfloors but they cling to carpets. I suffer with dust mite allergies I went to see one of the best allergy consultants in the UK and he told me to remove the carpets and fit hardwood flooring. So I disagree.
Bill are you familiar with ohm's law? The higher the voltage more current will flow through a given resistance.
In a vacuum cleaner the voltage can be seen as the suction, the current as the airflow and the carpet is the resistance.So low suction (voltage) will mean a low airflow (current) through a given resistance ie the carpet. Proven by science

PS Hope you liked my email that's assuming your address is correct on here

 

[vaclab]

Mark, I Can See You Aren't Familiar With Ohm's Law

You said:
In a vacuum cleaner the voltage can be seen as the suction, the current as the airflow and the carpet is the resistance.So low suction (voltage) will mean a low airflow (current) through a given resistance ie the carpet. Proven by science.
==========================
E=IR and P=IE

Airflow would be liked to voltage and suction (water lift) would be likened to current. So many people get this one backwards.

As resistance increases (carpet), current increases or more accurately ATTEMPTS to increase. If the current (suction) cannot maintain the voltage, the voltage (CFM) begins to drop under an increasing load (resistance).

Voltage is a potential difference between two points, say earth ground and something else. The strength of the voltage (ability to resist a load) is current. The strength of the airflow is suction, which is the ability to maintain CFM under a resistance (carpet).

Don't confuse the above with what the electrical motor is experiencing as that is a different ball of wax.

Look behind the Kirby Avalir and Diamond Edition in my videos. See that giant blob of electrical testing gear? Do you know how long I've been designing/building electrical circuits and power supplies to feed those circuits? Try over 40 years. I'm also FCC certified so I know how to design/build transmitters and antennas.

 

[vacuumdevil]

@vaclab You're really wanted to speak about scientific testing
With your cardboard box.
I haven't seen you debunk anything,
perhaps because your only platform is here?
Not sure how or why you would want to go against an industry standard?
You're in no place to debunk anything from your past comments and videos.
Just accept that you are a form of entertainment and nothing more .
I see you tried to bully people on here.
You should just stop and agree to disagree New balance man.

 

[huskyvacs]

"dust mites are easily removed from hardfloors but they cling to carpets. I suffer with dust mite allergies I went to see one of the best allergy consultants in the UK and he told me to remove the carpets and fit hardwood flooring. "

okay then why are you here starting arguments about kirby? are you doing it out of spite because you cannot own anything beyond a stick vacuum or something? since you can only have tile or hardwood flooring in your house, that has absolutely nothing to do with kirby or their cleaning ability - you just want to start trouble which will subsequently get you banned. this post should have been a single comment on one of his videos, and not a forum post here. if you don't like kirby then so what? nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to buy it.

if you actually try different vacuums and find out which one works best for you, and not just parroting what youtube influencers tell you to buy - this whole problem can be averted. vacuums are all built for different price points, different carpet and flooring types, and different uses in mind. you have to analyze their features, and see which one would suit you, try it out, if it doesn't work out for you, clean it up and return it. I have a wool area rug from 2007 and I found the best vacuum to use on it that doesn't eat the fibers and beats the dirt out of the pile is a 1920's Hoover. It has soft horsehair fibers that gently groom it and a obligue beater bar pattern. No surprise, because those were the kinds of rugs that existed in that time period just as well as oriental rugs. Mostly all nylon-bristled vacuums will singe wool rugs due to friction burn and the aggressive stiffness of the bristles. Just the same, you would not want to use a big powerful industrial vacuum meant for hotels and casinos in your own home, as they are made for low pile carpeting and are very very powerful and could rip a domestic carpet to shreds instantly.

Here's a little $70 Eureka Powerspeed pulling a (literally) ton of sand out of a plush hotel carpet. It has the advantage because the brushroll creates static electricity which helps grab the sand out of the carpeting, and it has a big bin that lets more airflow intake in and out of the vacuum for better suction performance. that would be a plus for buying this vacuum, if you live near a beach or have a lot of sand issues.



now here's a little fun fact - dust mites do not only live in carpeting. they live in every sort of fabric in your house. bed, pillows, curtains, the clothes in your closet, upholstery, etc. If you had a good quality central HVAC system with a hepa filter and also a good negative air particulate filter on it (most places in the UK do not own one because the houses are too old and small to even fit one in) and keep your curtains, bed, and clothes washed weekly with a allergenic detergent then dust mites would not be a problem. they cannot thrive in humidity levels below 50% either. it's a lot easier for a doctor to say "tear out the carpet" then to actually do any sort of testing on your home to find the allergy triggers. Doctors are not scientists and neither are vacuum shop mechanics.

bill definitely has the upper hand here because he knows the science proven behind his methods through his life experiences and/or job, and that's the same stuff taught in electrical engineering courses, so the knowledge is sound and proven, and he is generous enough to share it with us. (even though all that math goes way over my head lol)

 

[jo]

The Kirby problem

While they may have strong suction power, all that power is useless on a sealed back carpet if the nozzle is indeed sealed to the carpet without airflow grooves or notches. Perhaps newer Kirby’s have this but I’m not sure, all I know is the old one my Dad had did not and it would stick to the carpet like glue unless you had the nozzle raised slightly above the carpet and you had to tweak that height adjuster all the time which was annoying. So the powerful suction was there, but didn’t do much good to properly allow the machine to move or clean without adjusting it to allow some airflow in around the edges of the nozzle. I think Kirby’s solution was why they had so many height adjustment settings, so the user could tweak it to be just right for different piles of carpet...but why leave this up to the customer to have to do? Then they added self propelling and a roller brush light to monitor the roller operation because if it was stuck to the carpet then the roller would stall and slip on the belt then the belt would stretch and burn...all of their solutions I feel are just band aids to relieve the problem somewhat but not really, just adjust it so the problem isn’t a problem, but can still occur if the user doesn’t set the height correctly. The bottom of the nozzle should be redesigned and the height adjustment should be fully automatic. An example is the Omni-Flo Automatic height adjusting system on Electrolux which Aerus still uses today. With each forward stroke the nozzle is allowed to rise up just enough to push it easily and not stick to the carpet and then it returns to full down position on the pull toward you backstroke. Each forward stroke can be at a different height fully variable and is automatically adjusted as you push by the system itself. Very thick and deep wall to wall carpeting will engage the feature moreso while on low pile carpeting the system will likely not engage at all. The roller isn’t allowed to stall due to the geared belt system and thread reinforced quality belts. An overheat switch is present to stop the motor if roller rotation is stopped by a jam or entanglement. And the airflow vents that have been added to the L shaped design over time, allow the airflow to pull from the front and sides of the nozzle allowing edge and front cleaning and no sticking to any carpet, hence the « Omni-Flo name that was displayed on the L shaped units during the Diamond Jubilee and Marquis era. While the Omni-flo Automatic name was discontinued on newer power nozzle motor covers, the system still is in use today. It just works quite well. It’s probably patented.

As an observant person, who did most of the vacuuming for Mom growing up...When we upgraded from an Electrolux pn-1 power nozzle to the Omni-Flo Automatic pn-6A model, and we had different types of carpet all over I carefully noticed and started observing how the whole automatically adjusting system works.

 

[vacfan1982]

Husky Vacs I have an MD Central Vac, Vorwerk VK150 , Miele S5, C3, Sebo Felix Sebo X4, Henry, Dyson V8. You can get anti allergy covers for bedding. I have a leather sofa so dust mites don't live there. They don't actually live in curtains but their faeces can do if dust mites aren't removed from your home, which they have been from mine. I also have a Blueair air purifier.

And no i'm not the biggest fan of the kirby having owned 2 of them but like you say "So what. there are things I appreciate about them though. But unlike Bill and some others I don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread and constantly bleat on about their so called superiority Baaaaaaaa

It wasn't my intention to cause an argument I was trying to get to the truth about the kirbys performance on a sealed carpet, I have been entitely civil and not personal like some. [this post was last edited: 3/14/2020-01:48]

 

[vacfan1982]

Bill Current increases as resistance increases?

This equation, i = v/r, tells us that the current, i, flowing through a circuit is directly proportional to the voltage, v, and inversely proportional to the resistance, r. In other words, if we increase the voltage, then the current will increase. But, if we increase the resistance, then the current will decrease.

When you placed the Kirby on top of a flow through carpet on top of your airflow box the CFM dropped by 65%, if you placed it on a sealed carpet where the resistance is greater it will drop even further. I think you know this to be true [this post was last edited: 3/14/2020-02:06]

 

[crazykirbydude]

Again, the Kirby has a gold CRI seal, while Dyson has none. The Carpet And Rug Institute tests vacuums on all sorts of carpet types, including rubber backed carpet. I have used my Kirby on my rubber backed rugs, and it does an excellent job. It gets stuff that my Shark misses.

On a separate note, the moderator needs to lock this thread. This thread was intended to be inflammatory, and nothing constructive has been said as a result. I don't understand why people can't simply ignore a person who is trying to start drama. Just be nice! This is the last time that I am going to reply to this thread, because I think this whole argument is stupid and I have better things to do.

 

[vaclab]

Here Are Some Real World Figures

Since we never have "unlimited" current to prop up the voltage under an increasing load, the voltage will drop. Said another way, since we never have unlimited suction, the CFM will drop under an increasing load. Take a real long look at this actual motor performance chart.

At a 2" opening (low resistance), the CFM=141.5 and the suction=7.4"
At a 1" opening (medium resistance), the CFM=95.3 and the suction=56.9"
At a 0.5" opening (high resistance), the CFM=33.3 and the suction=112.7"

Same goes for current limited electrical circuits. When the resistance increases, the current increases to attempt to prop up the voltage as long as it can until it maxes out and then voltage drops.

You can witness a part of this behavior in countless videos I've made where I show the voltage drop under a 10A or 12A vacuum load (low resistance).

And don't forget that the absolute value of what CFM remains is always the key. If machine "X" loses 100 CFM and only has 50 CFM remaining, that is still quite better than a machine that loses 25 CFM and only has 25 CFM remaining.

So yes, I'm saying that a variety of dirty air machines, including Sanitaire, Royal, Kirby, classic Hoovers, etc., will have superior airflow on sealed carpets compared to low CFM bagless machines. They will not drop to something ridiculous like 10 CFM. Know how to tell? Because the vacuum would absolutely howl in protest and the motor would overheat in just a few minutes.

Have a listen to what happens when a Kirby dirt pad gets clogged and airflow drops. A properly height adjusted direct air machine won't sound like this. I just cleaned a 6000+ sq. ft. church low pile sealed commercial carpet with a Sanitaire Wide Track II and it has a boatload of usable CFM when adjusted properly.




Bill

 

[luxflairguy]

This has gotten beyond boring and reptetitive! Reporting to moderator!

 

[vacuumdevil]

@luxflairguy Thank you God!