fantomfan57
Well-known member
Thanks, Kevin & Fred...
Good idea and info. I will have to check my vac's for the logo detail.
Good idea and info. I will have to check my vac's for the logo detail.
Good and bad Electrolux Motors?
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real1shep
Well-known member
....<a name="start_32795.361928"></a>just as the teal 1205 had black lettering with a red border.
Unless you think Lester's historical article on Electrolux is inaccurate, the lettering of the 1205 bumpers started out red and on final production they went to black....not sure on the borders. The two I have, have no color on the borders. I'm gonna see if I can find some factory pics of the Super J. I thought they were black with a black border. The two used bumpers I bought came right off a Super J and were very faded black letters and borders....doesn't mean that's correct, but those bumpers had never been touched up, being that faded.
Lester's pics of the 1205's, although grainy, show no color border and none on the 50th Jubilee(1210). Perhaps the border colors wore off/faded quickly.
Kevin
Unless you think Lester's historical article on Electrolux is inaccurate, the lettering of the 1205 bumpers started out red and on final production they went to black....not sure on the borders. The two I have, have no color on the borders. I'm gonna see if I can find some factory pics of the Super J. I thought they were black with a black border. The two used bumpers I bought came right off a Super J and were very faded black letters and borders....doesn't mean that's correct, but those bumpers had never been touched up, being that faded.
Lester's pics of the 1205's, although grainy, show no color border and none on the 50th Jubilee(1210). Perhaps the border colors wore off/faded quickly.
Kevin
human
Well-known member
They're very prone to fading...
The red borders on both of my 1205s are badly faded. Truth be told, I wasn't aware the red stripe was even there until I read about it on this forum and looked closely at the one I had at the time (and still have) and could see the faded remnants of red. When I got the second one this summer, I could see the red borders a little more clearly but they were still very faint.
The red borders on both of my 1205s are badly faded. Truth be told, I wasn't aware the red stripe was even there until I read about it on this forum and looked closely at the one I had at the time (and still have) and could see the faded remnants of red. When I got the second one this summer, I could see the red borders a little more clearly but they were still very faint.
I'm going by personal observations ... the 1205s I've seen on eBay and one I've seen in person with the black control panel (1968 iteration) have had black letters and red border bumper logos. I've also seen several 50th Jubilee and Super J bumper logos with the gold borders and black letters; although it could be that the later Super Js had all black bumper borders and letters. I used to think that just the 50th Jubilee ones had the gold borders, because initially I'd seen Super Js with black ones. Then I talked with the owner of one who told me that he had reinked the logos in all black but wasn't sure of their original colors; and when I began to see other Super Js with gold borders on their bumper logos I just figured that the all black ones I'd seen had also been reinked.
A clarification of the term 'logo' might be helpful regarding Lester's information. There are 3 different types of logos: ICONIC/SYMBOLIC--a graphic--e.g. AB Electrolux nozzle logo; LOGOTYPE/WORDMARK--a stylized company name--e.g. (current Kirby logo); and a LETTER MARK--a combination of a symbol and a wordmark--e.g. mid- to late- century Electrolux logo). I'm guessing that Lester used 'logo' to refer to the border symbol only. If he did mean a letter mark, then the 1205 bumpers I've seen on the 1968 tanks were redone at some point. If you have a picture of an all red Electrolux USA bumper letter mark please post it.
A clarification of the term 'logo' might be helpful regarding Lester's information. There are 3 different types of logos: ICONIC/SYMBOLIC--a graphic--e.g. AB Electrolux nozzle logo; LOGOTYPE/WORDMARK--a stylized company name--e.g. (current Kirby logo); and a LETTER MARK--a combination of a symbol and a wordmark--e.g. mid- to late- century Electrolux logo). I'm guessing that Lester used 'logo' to refer to the border symbol only. If he did mean a letter mark, then the 1205 bumpers I've seen on the 1968 tanks were redone at some point. If you have a picture of an all red Electrolux USA bumper letter mark please post it.
50th Jubilee Model Correction ...
The 50th Jubilee model identification on the inside of the bag door is '1205'; albeit the owner's manual makes no reference to a numerical model. The '1210' may have been used in service manuals, although someone else mentioned that he'd seen '1205J'.
The 50th Jubilee model identification on the inside of the bag door is '1205'; albeit the owner's manual makes no reference to a numerical model. The '1210' may have been used in service manuals, although someone else mentioned that he'd seen '1205J'.
human
Well-known member
FWIW, my Super J's bumper logos are lettering with black borders and have not been re-touched, at least by me.
Thanks--it's possible that the later Super Js bumpers were originally inked completely in black just like the later Olympia Ones; although now I wonder if the border on those was dark brown that faded to black--haha.
I checked some of the eBay Super J listings all of which had faded or were too blurry to detect.
What is the serial ID of yours (on the stabilizer)? As far as I can tell they all had the same 'K' prefix, and the suffixes went in alphabetical order according to manufacturing; so K_A affixes would have been early ones and K_R affixes would have signified later ones.
I checked some of the eBay Super J listings all of which had faded or were too blurry to detect.
What is the serial ID of yours (on the stabilizer)? As far as I can tell they all had the same 'K' prefix, and the suffixes went in alphabetical order according to manufacturing; so K_A affixes would have been early ones and K_R affixes would have signified later ones.
human
Well-known member
Mine is a K_S so it must be a very late one.
real1shep
Well-known member
K_S Super J's were the ones where they had the fire at the plant and could not produce their own armatures,. They were outsourced outside the plant and they had troubles with the motors after that. They also stood by them and if your dealer/salesman fixed your machine, you got a new motor with a sticker under the handle that read ; 'Five Year Warranty'. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the K_S serial run might have been the last iteration of the Super J
As I said earlier, I sent my DD 1205 back to my son in Brooklyn. It had black on black bumpers. I just looked at my other here that needs restoration and I honestly can't tell what the remnant color is on the border, even under a magnifying glass. If I had to guess, I'd say black and black lettering again inside for sure.
If all the Super J's had gold borders, than I did mine wrong. Which means the old faded replacement ones that came off another Super J, black/black, were wrong from the source. Maybe they were originally off a 1205. Kinda maddening.
My ex has the 50th Anniversary Jubilee.....I was there today with our grandson, I could have checked what the model was inside the door. I abhor those color canisters...I only bought the Super J for the bigger motor and its historical significance(the million dollar plant retooling to make the motor and canister body).
The Super J's promotional literature that was used to distribute propaganda to regional Electrolux mangers and salesmen, shows black lettering with a red border. And then dozens of pics followed with testing procedures, McKee proudly holding one etc, etc. But they are all B&W pics and I can't tell much about colors used on actual models in the lit.
Kevin
[this post was last edited: 11/6/2016-00:20]
As I said earlier, I sent my DD 1205 back to my son in Brooklyn. It had black on black bumpers. I just looked at my other here that needs restoration and I honestly can't tell what the remnant color is on the border, even under a magnifying glass. If I had to guess, I'd say black and black lettering again inside for sure.
If all the Super J's had gold borders, than I did mine wrong. Which means the old faded replacement ones that came off another Super J, black/black, were wrong from the source. Maybe they were originally off a 1205. Kinda maddening.
My ex has the 50th Anniversary Jubilee.....I was there today with our grandson, I could have checked what the model was inside the door. I abhor those color canisters...I only bought the Super J for the bigger motor and its historical significance(the million dollar plant retooling to make the motor and canister body).
The Super J's promotional literature that was used to distribute propaganda to regional Electrolux mangers and salesmen, shows black lettering with a red border. And then dozens of pics followed with testing procedures, McKee proudly holding one etc, etc. But they are all B&W pics and I can't tell much about colors used on actual models in the lit.
Kevin
[this post was last edited: 11/6/2016-00:20]
I found a photo of a 50th Jubilee postcard which shows a black/black bumper logo; also photos posted by compactelectra of his Super J with black/black and a 1977 Super J manual cover which suggests gold/black (albeit it's in b & w). My 1976 SJ manual shows black/black, a white hose & PN-2, a K_A serial and purchase date of April 1976 written in the blanks. So, it may be that the late 1205s, all the GJs, and early SJs had black/black, and mid-later SJs had gold/black.
Regarding the 5-year decals on the SJs, I did find a K_P SJ with one, so either the suffixes did not always go in alphabetical order, or the decals were affixed to all SJs as they were brought in for service. Tig21er, a longtime Electrolux salesman, did state that the K_S motors were the ones that initially had the outsourced motors.
Re: your reply (#21) about the combination upholstery tool/dusting brush colors, the one with green sides (as Electrolux called them until 1968 or so) was one from an aquamarine green Model G. Here are the colors of them (holder/sides) from the Model E to the Model 1505 Silverado:
blue/blue: E, EA, T
pale gray/ivory: F, R (early)
pale blue-gray/ivory: S
ivory/teal green: aqua G, R (mid-late), ivory L, CB
ivory/tan: tan G & L, CB
teal blue/teal blue: 1205, teal blue L, CB
ivory/ivory: 1205 50th Jubilee, 1401, 1401-B, brown 1453 & 1505, honeygold L, CB
light gray/light gray: gray 1505, 1453, CB, CB2000
Regarding the 5-year decals on the SJs, I did find a K_P SJ with one, so either the suffixes did not always go in alphabetical order, or the decals were affixed to all SJs as they were brought in for service. Tig21er, a longtime Electrolux salesman, did state that the K_S motors were the ones that initially had the outsourced motors.
Re: your reply (#21) about the combination upholstery tool/dusting brush colors, the one with green sides (as Electrolux called them until 1968 or so) was one from an aquamarine green Model G. Here are the colors of them (holder/sides) from the Model E to the Model 1505 Silverado:
blue/blue: E, EA, T
pale gray/ivory: F, R (early)
pale blue-gray/ivory: S
ivory/teal green: aqua G, R (mid-late), ivory L, CB
ivory/tan: tan G & L, CB
teal blue/teal blue: 1205, teal blue L, CB
ivory/ivory: 1205 50th Jubilee, 1401, 1401-B, brown 1453 & 1505, honeygold L, CB
light gray/light gray: gray 1505, 1453, CB, CB2000
real1shep
Well-known member
Wow...thank you for that on the upholstery brushes! I always assumed that ivory body with the teal sides was a repair of some kind. Very cool that it probably came correctly with one of the G's I have. Is there a source anymore for the horse hair rings to renew the brushes?
I have kind of another anomaly...I have a floor brush that looks like it came from the 1521 era...gray or whatever bland color designation they gave it. It has the wand release on the right side. My other two gray ones have the wand release on the top. I'm puzzled by this....and it makes it impossible to turn to the right side to say, sweep under a sofa. The side wand release hits the floor when the wand is turned.
The colors are not exactly the same;the side release head is more an ivory with a gold plate where the brush is(possibly a Super J floor brush?). The other two are more gray with the top release and a silver plate where the brushes are. Otherwise, the heads are identical.
I don't know how for sure we'd ever know for certain about the bumper colors, unless we could match color to serial #'s. And given that the units are so old now and likely have replacement parts(or have been re-colored)....unless we got some notes from the factory about this issues, I don't know how it could ever be settled. I've come across this in other hobbies where the original company folded, got bought out, or a fire took out all their records. Just becomes an educated guess or conjecture at that point.
As I understood it....only the armatures were outsourced from another company...that part of the plant was damaged by fire. They still had the rest of the plant serviceable and the outsourced, Electrolux spec-ed armatures were put into the in-plant motor housings. I wonder then if Electrolux decided rather than retool again for the armatures, after they made their last run of SJ's.....they just decided to out source all their motors in the future? The SJ was a relatively brief vacuum model run(what, three yrs?) for all the hoopla and expense to build that motor. Maybe they couldn't come back from the stigma of the bad K_S motor failure....I dunno. Had to be a corporate decision based on something.
Kevin
[this post was last edited: 11/7/2016-12:07]
I have kind of another anomaly...I have a floor brush that looks like it came from the 1521 era...gray or whatever bland color designation they gave it. It has the wand release on the right side. My other two gray ones have the wand release on the top. I'm puzzled by this....and it makes it impossible to turn to the right side to say, sweep under a sofa. The side wand release hits the floor when the wand is turned.
The colors are not exactly the same;the side release head is more an ivory with a gold plate where the brush is(possibly a Super J floor brush?). The other two are more gray with the top release and a silver plate where the brushes are. Otherwise, the heads are identical.
I don't know how for sure we'd ever know for certain about the bumper colors, unless we could match color to serial #'s. And given that the units are so old now and likely have replacement parts(or have been re-colored)....unless we got some notes from the factory about this issues, I don't know how it could ever be settled. I've come across this in other hobbies where the original company folded, got bought out, or a fire took out all their records. Just becomes an educated guess or conjecture at that point.
As I understood it....only the armatures were outsourced from another company...that part of the plant was damaged by fire. They still had the rest of the plant serviceable and the outsourced, Electrolux spec-ed armatures were put into the in-plant motor housings. I wonder then if Electrolux decided rather than retool again for the armatures, after they made their last run of SJ's.....they just decided to out source all their motors in the future? The SJ was a relatively brief vacuum model run(what, three yrs?) for all the hoopla and expense to build that motor. Maybe they couldn't come back from the stigma of the bad K_S motor failure....I dunno. Had to be a corporate decision based on something.
Kevin
[this post was last edited: 11/7/2016-12:07]
1) No problem for the information on the replacement dust brush rings. I'm unsure if Aerus still carries them--it's possible, because it still sells the exact combination tool (minus the logo)--but I've seen them on eBay and on different vacuum parts websites before. Here's one, but you'll want to do some research before you make a purchase: http://onlinevacshop.com/product/dust-brush-insert/. You just need a flat-head screwdriver to pry the brush ring out and push in the new one until it snaps in place.
2) Combination rug/floor tool w/side wand lock tab ... You should be able to swivel it, so the tab is on top. If not, maybe the wand lock was replaced at some point without placing the tab on top. While the honeygold brush plate is original to the Super J, it's also possible that the swivel connector may have been replaced at some point with an aftermarket one--is the "This Side Up Electrolux" decal the same? Following is a list of combination rug/floor colors (holder/bumper/brush plate) that will help with identification of original parts. Keep in mind that the brush plates were painted the same color as the tank bodies until the 1521s; then they were just brushed aluminum. Further, sometimes colors (or primers) were different between the standard and budget models--two that can be easily confused are the more metallic teal of the 1205 and the flat teal of the Model L. That's getting really picky, isn't it?
Furthermore, there was an on/off gleaner switch on the side of the head from 1954 (E, EA, T era) to c. 1967 (tan G--some of them have the switch and some don't).
-blue/(no bumper)/hammertone blue - E, EA, T
-ivory/gray/pale gray - F, R (early)
-ivory/blue-gray/blue-gray - S
-ivory/teal green/aquamarine green - aqua G, R (mid-late), ivory L
-ivory/tan/tan - tan G & L
-teal blue/ivory/teal blue - teal 1205 & L
-ivory/ivory/honeygold - GJ, SJ, honeygold L, 1363
-ivory/ivory/brown (w/plastic swivel connector) - Oly One, brown 1453, tan 1451 & 1451E
-gray/dark gray/metallic gray (w/plastic swivel connector) - Silverado, gray 1453, gray 1451E
-sand/sand/aluminum (w/plastic swivel connector) - 1521, DJ & Marquise labels
-lt. sand/lt. sand/aluminum (w/plastic swivel connector) - 1521, Grand Marquise, Legacy, Ultralux, Ultralux LX, Ultralux Classic
3) The Super J was manufactured from October 1975 - April 1979. The 50th Jubilee (Golden J) sold from 1974-75. That motor was also used in the Oly One and Silverado. It may also have been used in the honeygold, brown, and metallic gray model CBs (commercial canisters) and the period's uprights.
4) I read somewhere that Electrolux first outsourced its motors in 1984 during the end of the Silverados and beginning of the Diamond Js. I don't know how long they continued to be, but supposedly the Marquise had a problematic motor along with some later 1521s--if not all of them.
5) Regarding the small changes (e.g. the bumper logo ink colors) I agree that it's next to impossible to obtain accurate information on all of them. As you mentioned, some early SJ photos included the bumper logo colors of the 1205. Even the manual editions may contain shared photos instead of each having its own. Kirby and Hoover manuals were known for photo sharing, too. It's a cost effective measure for sure.
2) Combination rug/floor tool w/side wand lock tab ... You should be able to swivel it, so the tab is on top. If not, maybe the wand lock was replaced at some point without placing the tab on top. While the honeygold brush plate is original to the Super J, it's also possible that the swivel connector may have been replaced at some point with an aftermarket one--is the "This Side Up Electrolux" decal the same? Following is a list of combination rug/floor colors (holder/bumper/brush plate) that will help with identification of original parts. Keep in mind that the brush plates were painted the same color as the tank bodies until the 1521s; then they were just brushed aluminum. Further, sometimes colors (or primers) were different between the standard and budget models--two that can be easily confused are the more metallic teal of the 1205 and the flat teal of the Model L. That's getting really picky, isn't it?
Furthermore, there was an on/off gleaner switch on the side of the head from 1954 (E, EA, T era) to c. 1967 (tan G--some of them have the switch and some don't).
-blue/(no bumper)/hammertone blue - E, EA, T
-ivory/gray/pale gray - F, R (early)
-ivory/blue-gray/blue-gray - S
-ivory/teal green/aquamarine green - aqua G, R (mid-late), ivory L
-ivory/tan/tan - tan G & L
-teal blue/ivory/teal blue - teal 1205 & L
-ivory/ivory/honeygold - GJ, SJ, honeygold L, 1363
-ivory/ivory/brown (w/plastic swivel connector) - Oly One, brown 1453, tan 1451 & 1451E
-gray/dark gray/metallic gray (w/plastic swivel connector) - Silverado, gray 1453, gray 1451E
-sand/sand/aluminum (w/plastic swivel connector) - 1521, DJ & Marquise labels
-lt. sand/lt. sand/aluminum (w/plastic swivel connector) - 1521, Grand Marquise, Legacy, Ultralux, Ultralux LX, Ultralux Classic
3) The Super J was manufactured from October 1975 - April 1979. The 50th Jubilee (Golden J) sold from 1974-75. That motor was also used in the Oly One and Silverado. It may also have been used in the honeygold, brown, and metallic gray model CBs (commercial canisters) and the period's uprights.
4) I read somewhere that Electrolux first outsourced its motors in 1984 during the end of the Silverados and beginning of the Diamond Js. I don't know how long they continued to be, but supposedly the Marquise had a problematic motor along with some later 1521s--if not all of them.
5) Regarding the small changes (e.g. the bumper logo ink colors) I agree that it's next to impossible to obtain accurate information on all of them. As you mentioned, some early SJ photos included the bumper logo colors of the 1205. Even the manual editions may contain shared photos instead of each having its own. Kirby and Hoover manuals were known for photo sharing, too. It's a cost effective measure for sure.
real1shep
Well-known member
Yeah, the vac stores that went out of business in recent yrs carried the horse hair rings. I found when replacing the rings with new ones, it was a good idea to use some silicone as well, rather than just trust the plastic tabs. I'll check out that link, thanks.
I think you must be correct...I have a lot of Electrolux floor heads going back to the G(hell yeah, LOVE the gleaner switch!). I don't have any release tabs on the side like that, so I should investigate further. I betcha it came off a Super J....as per your chart....just got a feeling. It came with a machine and some wands, but since I didn't catalog it, I don't remember which machine.
The story on the Diamond J motor failure is legend. But as legends go, the story has evolved into a life of its own and exceeds greatly the original facts. I talked to some people in the biz at the time. Their stories were only slightly similar, but close enough that you could extrapolate the truth from fiction. One version is that Electrolux only had trouble with the Diamond J motors in desert climates. The other version is that initially, the vacs were throwing commutator plates while being demoed. It was suggested that they carry multiple demo units until the problem was resolved. I think the reality probably lies somewhere between those two versions. I don't get the desert air part, unless it had something to do with drying out the motor brushes? Yes, the motors were completely outsourced at the beginning of the DJ production run, hence the rumors about them ALL being bad motors. That just isn't rue.
The new DJ I bought in '84 was a 'force of nature' cleaning system.....a brute. My ex's cleaning lady was only able to destroy the machine from physical abuse in the late 90's. But it wasn't the motor that failed. I have gone through about a half dozen of them so far and never seen any evidence of failing motors. That being said, I have no idea if they all had original motors or not, but I'm sure some did.
My DD DJ pulls almost 80 inches of water. By contrast, the Super J I bought only pulled 60 inches. I bought a rewound armature for the big Super J motor and brushes, but have not had the time to restore that particular machine. I paid more for the armature than the entire vacuum set. I would think the Super J to be at least the equal of the Diamond J.
I'll post what I find out on the 'freak' floor brush!
Kevin
I think you must be correct...I have a lot of Electrolux floor heads going back to the G(hell yeah, LOVE the gleaner switch!). I don't have any release tabs on the side like that, so I should investigate further. I betcha it came off a Super J....as per your chart....just got a feeling. It came with a machine and some wands, but since I didn't catalog it, I don't remember which machine.
The story on the Diamond J motor failure is legend. But as legends go, the story has evolved into a life of its own and exceeds greatly the original facts. I talked to some people in the biz at the time. Their stories were only slightly similar, but close enough that you could extrapolate the truth from fiction. One version is that Electrolux only had trouble with the Diamond J motors in desert climates. The other version is that initially, the vacs were throwing commutator plates while being demoed. It was suggested that they carry multiple demo units until the problem was resolved. I think the reality probably lies somewhere between those two versions. I don't get the desert air part, unless it had something to do with drying out the motor brushes? Yes, the motors were completely outsourced at the beginning of the DJ production run, hence the rumors about them ALL being bad motors. That just isn't rue.
The new DJ I bought in '84 was a 'force of nature' cleaning system.....a brute. My ex's cleaning lady was only able to destroy the machine from physical abuse in the late 90's. But it wasn't the motor that failed. I have gone through about a half dozen of them so far and never seen any evidence of failing motors. That being said, I have no idea if they all had original motors or not, but I'm sure some did.
My DD DJ pulls almost 80 inches of water. By contrast, the Super J I bought only pulled 60 inches. I bought a rewound armature for the big Super J motor and brushes, but have not had the time to restore that particular machine. I paid more for the armature than the entire vacuum set. I would think the Super J to be at least the equal of the Diamond J.
I'll post what I find out on the 'freak' floor brush!
Kevin
real1shep
Well-known member
I'll see....
if I can post some pics. On closer examination, it sure looks like the floor brush was made this way. At first I thought maybe the metal ring had slipped sideways, but if you look closely, you'll see a indent in the body of the swivel neck itself, indicating the release is on the side. I don't see any way to remedy this.
Brush is low hr, but I hate using it for the reasons I stated earlier.
Kevin
if I can post some pics. On closer examination, it sure looks like the floor brush was made this way. At first I thought maybe the metal ring had slipped sideways, but if you look closely, you'll see a indent in the body of the swivel neck itself, indicating the release is on the side. I don't see any way to remedy this.
Brush is low hr, but I hate using it for the reasons I stated earlier.
Kevin
Thanks for the photos of your swivel connector. I agree that the wand lock tab looks like it's situated correctly due to the indent. Right now, my tools are in storage as I'm in transition; so I'm unable to check them. It could be that Electrolux moved the tab to the side in the conversion to plastic connectors in 1979 and then moved it back to the center position during the gray-colored production. Either that or you have a rare prototype.
real1shep
Well-known member
Lol......
but in actual use, I hate it. Got the gold plate on the bottom which I did not photograph.....and the color really isn't gray, but more of an ivory. My two yr old grandson 'vacuums' with that one. I probably have a dozen floor brushes and never saw a side release tab like that. Not to mention all the machines I've restored and sent along....never saw anything like that. Factory floor brush though.
Kevin
but in actual use, I hate it. Got the gold plate on the bottom which I did not photograph.....and the color really isn't gray, but more of an ivory. My two yr old grandson 'vacuums' with that one. I probably have a dozen floor brushes and never saw a side release tab like that. Not to mention all the machines I've restored and sent along....never saw anything like that. Factory floor brush though.
Kevin
