Direct air power nozzle

[wyaple]

Partial Reply #3

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So let’s see, your claim of 60%-70% airflow loss is totally bogus when using HEPA cloth bags. I do not use nor recommend paper bags of any type and even my U4007 Convertible has a Hoover Q HEPA bag installed now. Please see my post in the Vintage Forum as to my discovery that most Convertibles may not lose any airflow even when the bag fills partially due to belt and brush roll “pre-loading” of the motor. It’s quite fascinating!

Percent lost from empty to full (75% Kirby) HEPA bag:
Electrolux (Body) = 14.7%, Electrolux (Hose) = 7.1%
Tempo (Body) = 13.2%, Tempo (Hose) = 14.2%
Heritage II (Body) > 12.4%, Heritage II (Hose) = 0% <- Yes, I know that’s weird but apparently Kirby’s high speed hose mode make up the difference somehow.
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Even your own testing even proves you wrong! In your test results, you show that a 1980 Electrolux Olympia One has a PN CFM density of 3.55, beating out a Kirby Heritage II with 3.33 & a Kirby G6 with 3.54, & coming pretty close to matching a Kirby G5 with 3.69 & Kirby G4 with 3.61. Considering this is isn't even a modern canister vacuum, & has only 85" waterlift, I can only imagine how much better PN CFM a modern Miele, Sebo or Riccar/Simplicity canister would have.

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Dude, really? I guess you don’t understand the effects of CFM density. This very response is why sometimes I worry about posting results. CFM Density is only a ratio of nozzle airflow to nozzle size. It cannot by itself tell you how well a machines cleans.

EXAMPLE:

2004 Dirt Devil Swift Stick: 30 CFM (Filter installed) and a nozzle area of 3.25”. This gives a CFM density of a whopping 9.32 besting all the other machines I have. Does it deep clean? Of course not, but it’ll suck small items and fine dust from a 6 inch swath of bare floor pretty well…until the filter clogs, which is just a few seconds.
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[wyaple]

Partial Reply #4

And by the way, my opinion comes from REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. My Mom, when she was alive, had her own cleaning business for over 37 years, & we both cleaned many commercial & residential properties together, & we used pretty much everything available for residential & commercial use. You name it, I have seen & used it!
I'm not just someone with a hobby who decided to "test" things at home, I have REAL experience using both uprights & canisters, & I know what the heck I am talking about! So, let's see your testing reflect results with REAL LIFE test results, & then we'll talk! Maybe next time you'll think before you challenge someone who REALLY knows what they're talking about.

Rob

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I’ll let Vacuumlanders have the last word on who’s the most believable.

And to that end I have one last thing to prove about canister airflow loss. And the base numbers will not come from me, they will be from Ametek Lamb. Stay tuned!

Bill
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[wyaple]

Using This Ametek Lamb Motor in a Miele C3...

Would probably be overkill, but I wanted to find something that had as close to 141 CFM as possible to prove a point. No matter what CFM the motor starts with, you must take into account the hose diameter that will feed your power nozzle.

Please examine my red highlighted box in their bulletin. At a 2" opening you have a whopping 140 CFM. At a fully blocked or sealed opening, you have an equally whopping 140" of lift.

Now I call your attention to what happens when the opening is reduced to 1.125". The airflow drops like a stone from 140 CFM to 106 CFM (I'm rounding). Now add additional losses for things like:

1) base hose connection
2) hose looping/curling
3) hose to base handle connection
4) wand length #1
5) wand length #2
6) wand to u-joint
7) typical 45 degree angle of u-joint

There simply will be at least 15-20 CFM additional losses. So I would expect a Miele C3 with a fresh HEPA bag to have around 90-ish CFM at the power nozzle. Compare to a Sentria II that has 137 CFM or a Heritage II Legend through a G6 that has around 120 CFM.

Bill

 

[tseg]

2 questions. I get that leaks reduce airflow at the nozzle/floorhead... But if the motor is sucking in when on I don't see how any dust escapes through leaks when traveling to the motor because leaks will also be sucking in air, inhibiting dust escape... It seems a sealed system helps maintain airflow but not sure how critical it is to prevent escaping dust when motor is on?

The next question about airflow needed to cause floorhead seal to floor... with a C3 with AirTeQ suction-only head at full power it is basically stuck to any carpet and is almost impossible to move without hopping it across the carpet forwards and significant pull backwards which lifts the carpet off the floor. I'm not sure I understand any relevancy related to 'seal to floor' comments about floorheads and airflow other than it is related to the underside design of a floorhead.

 

[sebo4me]

Sebo introduced a tapered hose which is supposed to increase airflow. It's wider at the body end.

Can someone please test a Miele C3 with a Baird meter so we can see the CFM at the end of the hose.

My guess is it will around about 100 CFM +/- 10 CFM

 

[sebo4me]

Just found the CFM for the Miele C3 at end of the hose. It is 94 CFM.

 

[kirbylux77]

Marcus - About the Sebo X series uprights & maintaining airflow & suction power. Yes, you are right. The pre-motor filter being on the side should indeed help the cleaner maintain power longer. Now, the only problem I can see with them is the fact that they used paper bags for so many years, which would clog fairly quickly. And although they do have HEPA Cloth bags now for the uprights, they are only a 3 ply bag. One thing about the new Sebo Mechanical uprights that were recently introduced, though, is they FINALLY put a pleated HEPA filter on the exhaust! I guess they figured a change was required when Miele went after them, claiming in their advertising for the Miele S7/Dynamic U1 uprights that they had the Sebo uprights were tested & found to be horrible for dust emissions. Now, if only they had a bit more suction thru the hose & a way to shut off the brushroll for bare floors, I would be tempted to buy one.

The other bagged uprights that would be superior at maintaining airflow would be the Kenmore PowerFlow/Panasonic OptiFlow uprights, Riccar Radiance & Simplicity Synergy Tandem Air uprights, Hoover Dial-A-Matic uprights, & newer body style Riccar Vibrance/Simplicity Symmetry uprights. Tacony has developed a system of plastic bars in the bag chamber that help keep the bag off of the pre-motor filter & motor vent. The copies of the Sebo X Series, such as the Hoover Insight/Hoover Profile, that have the same design, would also be superior at maintaining airflow as well.

Might I ask where you found the CFM ratings for the Miele C3 canisters, Marcus? It seems almost impossible to find that kind of information for Miele vacuums. If you could post a link please, I would appreciate it.

Rob

 

[sebo4me]

Do you mean the Sebo Evolution? And yes the Sebo X series will show up as horrible dust emissions but this is carbon dust from the motor. The S class filter is before the motor, which has the added benefit of offering excellent protection of the motor. They have a Hepa filter available in the US for the X series which will filter a little better than the electrostatic filter but not much. The electrostatic filter has the advantage of slightly more open pores so allow more airflow and last longer.

This was on Amazon. Someone said the CFM was 148. A few people pointed out that was at the motor and it was 94 at the end of the hose.

Not sure where they got this info or how accurate it is.

 

[wyaple]

Mark,

Please, please, please post the link and/or text in which you found 94 CFM and the hose end! If this is true, and I'm most definitely saying that it may not be, that would mean super colossal airflow losses in a nearly $1000 canister. As a reference, my 1980 Lux with a new vinyl hose does 95 CFM at the end of the hose.

And I found the 141 CFM motor spec from various dealers that sell this unit (not Amazon though).

Bill

 

[sebo4me]

There was a C3 for sale on Amazon. Someone asked a question "What is the CFM?"
Someone replied 145 CFM.
Then 2 people replied that is at the motor. It's 94 at the end of the hose.

Don't know where they got the info from.

 

[sebo4me]

Here's the link. Scroll down to questions.

http://https//www.amazon.com/Miele-S8990-Canister-Vacuum-Cleaner/dp/B009LRUTIG

 

[wyaple]

If Those Amazon Numbers Are True...

than that would be absolutely shocking! Think about it: a well respected, high priced canister that has no better airflow at the hose than this 1980 Electrolux (new hose). So what people are buying when purchasing a Miele is exhaust filtration at an outrageous price.

 

[sebo4me]

Why won't Miele list the CFM at the end of the hose?
Mieles and Sebos are way overpriced in the US.
I've seen a Miele C3 with the 228 PN for £350 here and I've just purchased a Sebo E4 Premium with ET1 PN for £220. About $270. You are being well and truly ripped off!

 

[sebo4me]

E3 Premium*

 

[wyaple]

They Won't Because That Would Make Life Too Easy

For the buying public. Imagine being able to comparison shop merely by looking at the hose or nozzle CFM.

You might see a $70 Hoover Tempo with 106 at the hose and 80 at the nozzle and a $700-$1200 Miele, Riccar, Sebo, etc. with the same specs and only the Hoover would sell! Jobs would be lost, heads would explode, the world would come to end as we know it. And suddenly manufacturers would be forced to justify ridiculous over priced machines.

Bill

 

[sebo4me]

Good point or be forced into improving the airflow ☺
Those figures could be wrong though it does seem like quite a big loss.

Is there no one on here with a Baird meter who owns a Miele or knows someone with a Miele?

 

[sptyks]

Marcus,


 


A $50 Baird meter measures airflow on a 0 - 10 scale. It does not measure CFM.


 


To measure CFM you need a Digital Anemomter which is a very expensive instrument.


 


There are many vacuum enthusiasts that own a Baird meter, but only a very few that own a Digital Anemomter and fortunately Bill owns one but unfortunately he does not own a Miele C3.


 


  

 

[sebo4me]

I thought Bill corresponded the Baird meter with CFM so a score of 10 would have a certain amount of airflow?

Anyway even if it doesn't I'd still like to see what the Miele scores.

 

[wyaple]

Stan,

Of course the Baird meter measures airflow, it just assigns it to a simple set of numbers. You need the "key" to unlock what an "8" means. Here's the key.

Bill

 

[sebo4me]

Stan