madman
Well-known member
Cheaper... in a $3000 vacuum cleaner? That's kinda my point.
Damage from using it as a blower
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vaclab
Well-known member
Kirby is not a $3000 vacuum cleaner
And anyone who pays that much for one (including financing) is a fool. The Avalir 2 lists for $1499 and I've read plenty of posts from those who negotiate that down to around $800 cash.
I don't know what the Diamond Edition MSRP was in 2005-ish, but I'll guess around $1200. Someone out there will know the exact price and will hopefully post it in this thread.
Remember that Kirbys have had two speeds for many decades and a Diamond Edition technically has 4 speeds. Without a major redesign, this was an economical way of adding two additional speeds. Obviously, Kirby dropped back down to just two speeds.
Bill
And anyone who pays that much for one (including financing) is a fool. The Avalir 2 lists for $1499 and I've read plenty of posts from those who negotiate that down to around $800 cash.
I don't know what the Diamond Edition MSRP was in 2005-ish, but I'll guess around $1200. Someone out there will know the exact price and will hopefully post it in this thread.
Remember that Kirbys have had two speeds for many decades and a Diamond Edition technically has 4 speeds. Without a major redesign, this was an economical way of adding two additional speeds. Obviously, Kirby dropped back down to just two speeds.
Bill
huskyvacs
Well-known member
Yes, door to door Kirby sales companies work much in the same way as car dealerships. They mark up the prices on purpose to pad the company's profit margin. A Kirby does not actually cost $2,000, $3,000 or whatever arbitrary numbers people are getting conned out of them for. The MSRP from Kirby is just a tad over $1,000, like vaclab posted from an actual retal sell-through model. Kirby has to get back what it cost them to make it, which only increases as time goes on because Kirby uses so much metal and slag casting in an era of Chinese plastic and vaccu-forming. Now it seems like a lot even at that price, but consider it will last the rest of your life, it is not a bad deal. Even those $700 Mieles love to clog up at the base due to the extreme angles of the airpath. I mean people pay that much more for a BBQ grill just to toss it out 2 years later.
The prices people are paying at door to door sales are what the DEALER is making profit on because they already paid money out of their pocket to lease the vacuums out from Kirby on the condition of a verified sale and payment from the customer. They more than double the price of the vacuum in order to cover the cost to buy more Kirbys from Kirby so they can sell more and make more money. It's an ongoing looping cycle.
So because of the pressure to make sales, they have to push hard and get mean to get those vacuums sold or else they can't make the sale and get the money back. The person doing the actual sales also gets a cut too, but only if they sell one. A lot of times they will not bother and just file the serial number off and take it to a pawn shop and pawn it off and say they sold it. That's how pawn shops get full of brand new Kirbys so soon after they come out. I seen an Avalir 2 at my local cash 'n' pawn in the 'hood for $150 but someone marked out the model tag with a sharpie and it looked like they took some car keys and destroyed the serial number. It also somehow had gotten so filthy even though these just came out fairly recently. I wanted it so badly but I didn't want to risk buying it and having my name attached to the sales records for it, even though it would probably be the pawn shop that would get in trouble if Kirby ever found out.
But yeah, dodes for controlling motor speed is pretty commonplace, it's the issue of what diodes they use and if they put in good ones that can take more capacity than they are rated for and still function safely. I have a Sunpentown vacuum that has a variable motor speed controller that is not unlike the dimmer knob on a light switch, and you can wind the motor way down to just a putter and it still runs, I don't know how, but it does. Pretty much all the vacuums were recalled years ago and they self-destructed on their own due to the motors overheating and erupting in flames and catching the plastic inside the vacuum on fire (hmm I wonder why)
The prices people are paying at door to door sales are what the DEALER is making profit on because they already paid money out of their pocket to lease the vacuums out from Kirby on the condition of a verified sale and payment from the customer. They more than double the price of the vacuum in order to cover the cost to buy more Kirbys from Kirby so they can sell more and make more money. It's an ongoing looping cycle.
So because of the pressure to make sales, they have to push hard and get mean to get those vacuums sold or else they can't make the sale and get the money back. The person doing the actual sales also gets a cut too, but only if they sell one. A lot of times they will not bother and just file the serial number off and take it to a pawn shop and pawn it off and say they sold it. That's how pawn shops get full of brand new Kirbys so soon after they come out. I seen an Avalir 2 at my local cash 'n' pawn in the 'hood for $150 but someone marked out the model tag with a sharpie and it looked like they took some car keys and destroyed the serial number. It also somehow had gotten so filthy even though these just came out fairly recently. I wanted it so badly but I didn't want to risk buying it and having my name attached to the sales records for it, even though it would probably be the pawn shop that would get in trouble if Kirby ever found out.
But yeah, dodes for controlling motor speed is pretty commonplace, it's the issue of what diodes they use and if they put in good ones that can take more capacity than they are rated for and still function safely. I have a Sunpentown vacuum that has a variable motor speed controller that is not unlike the dimmer knob on a light switch, and you can wind the motor way down to just a putter and it still runs, I don't know how, but it does. Pretty much all the vacuums were recalled years ago and they self-destructed on their own due to the motors overheating and erupting in flames and catching the plastic inside the vacuum on fire (hmm I wonder why)
madman
Well-known member
Way to miss the point.
rivstg1
Well-known member
more photo damage
This is an interesting case....seeing how much damage was done. I have personally used a Sentria model with the new Hand Butler for polishing some past Kirbys....but, I sold it w/o inspecting it afterwards to compare to this one. It didn't make any noise or smells to let me though. I firmly believe the lack of airflow while using the blower/fan shield attachment is the big culprit to overheating. Not enough surface area for air intake.
Notice how the blades are laying down....and not in the direction one might guess they would from excessive heat. Look how it was melting on the front and back of the fan!!! Notice that it actually increased in its overall diameter when placed up against a non heated damaged fan....heated one is larger a little. wild evidence I'd say.
Kelton
This is an interesting case....seeing how much damage was done. I have personally used a Sentria model with the new Hand Butler for polishing some past Kirbys....but, I sold it w/o inspecting it afterwards to compare to this one. It didn't make any noise or smells to let me though. I firmly believe the lack of airflow while using the blower/fan shield attachment is the big culprit to overheating. Not enough surface area for air intake.
Notice how the blades are laying down....and not in the direction one might guess they would from excessive heat. Look how it was melting on the front and back of the fan!!! Notice that it actually increased in its overall diameter when placed up against a non heated damaged fan....heated one is larger a little. wild evidence I'd say.
Kelton
madman
Well-known member
Funny thing about the blades laying in the 'opposite' direction. It occurred to me looking at it squarely from above in the first photo. If you forget the direction of rotation and consider only centrifugal force, because the blades are at an angle to center, their mass would be pulled exactly outward from center, along the radius. Which is exactly the result. The more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that the centrifugal force would be massive compared to the air resistance that one might assume would push the blades over in the other direction. In fact, the air being moved by the fan is subject to the exact same centrifugal forces, and would actually push the blades outward of center, and not so much in the direction you would at first imagine.
Science!
Science!
vacuumdevil
Well-known member
I'm not sure why someone would use a vacuum for a blower
It's just not hygienic and sanitary, considering that dust & dirt will never be completely cleared out of the hose/discharge outlet, the fancase and on the impeller itself. An air compressor seems like a better idea, and there are cheap ones for basic household needs.
I do wonder if using a Kirby with strictly the hose is harmful for the impeller -- I have a grade-C Sentria II that's all scratched up & heavily tarnished that I bought for a whopping $5 just to use to clean out my truck and my wife's car, as my Avalir's performance with the hose for that task convinced me to tuck my big contractor-grade Shop-Vac under my workbench and buy a scrappy Kirby to keep my shiny, clean & pristine Avalir in the house. Unlike my other Kirby machines, I'm not attached to it nor will it be a huge deal if it breaks, but seeing this has me curious.
It's just not hygienic and sanitary, considering that dust & dirt will never be completely cleared out of the hose/discharge outlet, the fancase and on the impeller itself. An air compressor seems like a better idea, and there are cheap ones for basic household needs.
I do wonder if using a Kirby with strictly the hose is harmful for the impeller -- I have a grade-C Sentria II that's all scratched up & heavily tarnished that I bought for a whopping $5 just to use to clean out my truck and my wife's car, as my Avalir's performance with the hose for that task convinced me to tuck my big contractor-grade Shop-Vac under my workbench and buy a scrappy Kirby to keep my shiny, clean & pristine Avalir in the house. Unlike my other Kirby machines, I'm not attached to it nor will it be a huge deal if it breaks, but seeing this has me curious.
Power
There is no small air compressor. They also take a ton of power.
Kirby's are okay for blowing up a ball,mattress or toy.
My shop vac is under $100 and it uses similar power to a kirby. It's pulling well over 100 cfm maybe 150 cfm. It seperates from the vacuum and blows clean air.
There is no small air compressor. They also take a ton of power.
Kirby's are okay for blowing up a ball,mattress or toy.
My shop vac is under $100 and it uses similar power to a kirby. It's pulling well over 100 cfm maybe 150 cfm. It seperates from the vacuum and blows clean air.
rivstg1
Well-known member
superocd
I dont understand your statement about using it as a blower and it being unsanitary.... I've used 2 of my kirby's in blower mode several times. Nothing is injested into the kirby whatsoever. with the nozzle air cover on the front...and the hose hooked up to the exhaust of the Kirby.....air is sucked in and blown out... nothing coats the impeller, fancase, outlet....etc. Are you describing a different action than I am ( or how the original person used there Kirby when it destructed?
I dont understand your statement about using it as a blower and it being unsanitary.... I've used 2 of my kirby's in blower mode several times. Nothing is injested into the kirby whatsoever. with the nozzle air cover on the front...and the hose hooked up to the exhaust of the Kirby.....air is sucked in and blown out... nothing coats the impeller, fancase, outlet....etc. Are you describing a different action than I am ( or how the original person used there Kirby when it destructed?
madman
Well-known member
I mean... any of those little air blowers for inflating mattresses and such are sucking up the same air with the same dust in it. I'll grant you, a proper air compressor should have an air filter on it.
huskyvacs
Well-known member
Filtering the air going into an inflatable mattress, chair, pool toy, etc is a mindless exercise. There is no purpose in it. It has no effect on the inflatable item if the air is dirty.
Just walking around downtown in any city in the summertime is going to have 20x more dirty air than a vacuum cleaner.
Also just FYI the air inside an air compressor is full of rust and motor oil as well as mildew from condensation from expansion and contraction of the air. That's why they have drain tubes.
An old air compressor that was not cared for and exploded: http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/f5043f769cc1f88e747d227d9ac67762.jpg
Just walking around downtown in any city in the summertime is going to have 20x more dirty air than a vacuum cleaner.
Also just FYI the air inside an air compressor is full of rust and motor oil as well as mildew from condensation from expansion and contraction of the air. That's why they have drain tubes.
An old air compressor that was not cared for and exploded: http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/f5043f769cc1f88e747d227d9ac67762.jpg
texaskirbyguy
Well-known member
Interesting thread, Kelton - goes to show engineering in reverse. That Sentria intake cover is a joke and no wonder the meltdown occurred. How was it even supposed to blow anything with no intake? Safety laws are likely for this blunder- got to make sure someones hair will not get sucked in when they lay in front of the Kirby...
Even the early intakes/crystalators are too restrictive to use the machine as a good blower. I tried it on my Tradition long ago and the leaves on the patio barely moved. I added a sawed-off crystalator (was broken anyway) and the leaves took flight - it was amazing in difference. I only pity low flying birds that get too close...
YOu would be better off using the rug nozzle as the intake and even on low speed you would get some usable blowing action.
What is happening here is air friction (through compression) is causing excess heat in the fan chamber. The fan gets so hot that the plastic begins to melt and 'grow' through centrifugal force. This is why the blades bent also. (Metal fans are much more tolerant.)
There is just just enough air coming in through that restrictive snout to keep the fan chamber full of air but does not let the air come out fast enough to keep fan chamber air temps down. It heats up fast. Same goes from using the pool toy inflater tool. I think the instructions on later models state to limit use to a few minutes with that attachment.
As a test, when using the hose, you can restrict the air a lot for 20-30 seconds and when released, you can feel the blast of superheated air coming out of the bag.
It might be better off to have a full intake restriction when the fan chamber actually enters into a vacuum to have less air to try to compress...
As for problems using only the hose a lot, I would not worry a bit. I have done those tests many times through actual use of my Tradition in regular use. Four times a year it gets about 4-5 hours of hose use with little shut down time as I dust everything with the dusting brushes. It has a white plastic fan and it still runs great. It does get restricted a bit when in use, but for very short times.
Now if you drop the hose and it sucks on to something and you leave it that way for a while (like a few minutes or more), then you may have problems.
Ever notice that bicycle tire pump hoses heat up at the bends after you have been using it? Yep, air friction. It is why air compressors have cooling fans on them as well.
Kirby could learn a lot from a bike pump...
Even the early intakes/crystalators are too restrictive to use the machine as a good blower. I tried it on my Tradition long ago and the leaves on the patio barely moved. I added a sawed-off crystalator (was broken anyway) and the leaves took flight - it was amazing in difference. I only pity low flying birds that get too close...
YOu would be better off using the rug nozzle as the intake and even on low speed you would get some usable blowing action.
What is happening here is air friction (through compression) is causing excess heat in the fan chamber. The fan gets so hot that the plastic begins to melt and 'grow' through centrifugal force. This is why the blades bent also. (Metal fans are much more tolerant.)
There is just just enough air coming in through that restrictive snout to keep the fan chamber full of air but does not let the air come out fast enough to keep fan chamber air temps down. It heats up fast. Same goes from using the pool toy inflater tool. I think the instructions on later models state to limit use to a few minutes with that attachment.
As a test, when using the hose, you can restrict the air a lot for 20-30 seconds and when released, you can feel the blast of superheated air coming out of the bag.
It might be better off to have a full intake restriction when the fan chamber actually enters into a vacuum to have less air to try to compress...
As for problems using only the hose a lot, I would not worry a bit. I have done those tests many times through actual use of my Tradition in regular use. Four times a year it gets about 4-5 hours of hose use with little shut down time as I dust everything with the dusting brushes. It has a white plastic fan and it still runs great. It does get restricted a bit when in use, but for very short times.
Now if you drop the hose and it sucks on to something and you leave it that way for a while (like a few minutes or more), then you may have problems.
Ever notice that bicycle tire pump hoses heat up at the bends after you have been using it? Yep, air friction. It is why air compressors have cooling fans on them as well.
Kirby could learn a lot from a bike pump...
I wonder if the same thing has happened to people that use the rug renovator a lot.
With the tension of the belt on the head and the restricted air flow thru the solution tank to produce the "dry foam" to clean the carpet, I would imagine that could happen in that instance as well.
Two sources to produce excessive heat. I know the belt shaft can get extremely hot with heavy use with any of the belt driven attachments.
With the tension of the belt on the head and the restricted air flow thru the solution tank to produce the "dry foam" to clean the carpet, I would imagine that could happen in that instance as well.
Two sources to produce excessive heat. I know the belt shaft can get extremely hot with heavy use with any of the belt driven attachments.
rivstg1
Well-known member
kirby519
the answer would be a big NO for rug renovator use. I have the renovators for all my Kirbys.....have identified no damage and I've taken a few apart and would have seen it .
the answer would be a big NO for rug renovator use. I have the renovators for all my Kirbys.....have identified no damage and I've taken a few apart and would have seen it .
rivstg1
Thank you for the update. So far I haven't seen that as a concern talked about here.
I have a commercial box extractor that I use to clean the carpeting and furniture there for If I use the renovator head it is just to work in the pre treatment in the high traffic areas.
I don't even put the tank on the machine for that procedure. There for there is the full air flow thru the machine with bag left in place.
Thank you for the update. So far I haven't seen that as a concern talked about here.
I have a commercial box extractor that I use to clean the carpeting and furniture there for If I use the renovator head it is just to work in the pre treatment in the high traffic areas.
I don't even put the tank on the machine for that procedure. There for there is the full air flow thru the machine with bag left in place.
juju93
Well-known member
This maybe irrelevant to be bringing up, but we’re due for a new Kirby anytime now. I mean avalir 2 (really sentria 4) is going on 3 years now. Time for something new
With all this going on-we are using the Kirby as a centrifical compressor.The impellors in these do get hot,of course.The gas flow cools them.Maybe this would be a good reason to go back to the METAL fans-no problem!For the inflating and similar uses you should just get a common air compressor.For the large centrifical compressors machines steel fans are used----EXPENSIVE-but withstands the pressure of the gases.Refrigeration and blast furnace gas compression!and these compressors are multistage!!more than one impellor-runs in series.Machines driven by steam turbines or very large motors.For the Kirby should be no problem if the airflow is not restricted like with the inflator tool.
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