Anyone else think the pre "ball" Dysons had better Bin/Cyclone designs?

[vac14012]

So, I have a Ball Animal 3, currently the only upright Dyson still sells, was kind of quietly released a few years ago.

It has in my opinion their best ever carpet/hard floor cleaner head, but the bin/cyclone/pre motor filter is the same exact design from the DC40 all the way back from 2011.

When you pull the tall washable premotor filter out from the top of the bin, there's always dust on the inner walls and on the top of the bin cap. It doesn't seem to do a good job of actually capturing the dust as the filter sits too loose in the bin imo. My post motor filter is spotless so it must be doing SOMETHING but I feel like you never had that much dust leakage on the pre ball uprights. Every time I'm done vacuuming I take out the pre-motor filter and dust inside the walls with a Swifter duster. Just seems silly.

 

[amtraksebo1997]

I don't have faith in cyclones.

If there purpose was to reduce/eliminate the need for regular filter cleaning/replacement, then they don't work well from what I've seen.

 

[vac14012]

It depends...

I've only ever had TWO Dysons in my home: a DC07 Animal (sold nearly 4 years ago) and a DC17 Absolute Animal (my current heavy-duty vacuum).

First off, the DC07's upwards-mounted inner cyclones filtered exceptionally well. And the shroud holes would get clogged with some fine dust every now and then. In the first several years of ownership, the pre-motor filter remained spotless. But if you vacuum up lots of fine materials like carpet powder or flour, this stuff will bypass the cyclones and create buildup on the filter. Although we stopped using carpet powder altogether, I eventually noticed grit and some hair building up on the filter. A few years ago, I made a post here on Vacuumland about this observation: https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?41052

Now, onto my current DC17. It filters just as well as the DC07, but the Achilles' heel is that the shroud gets clogged with fine dust MUCH faster than the older vacuum. This is exacerbated by the higher volume of fine dust pickup, thanks to the incredibly aggressive brushroll. Some of the hair and fluff will even make its way to the pre-motor filter over time.

Oh, and for the record, I have NEVER overfilled either of these machines. I, as well as everyone else in my family, have always emptied the bin right when the dirt reaches the MAX mark. In fact, we dump it after every single use.

I go overkill and use a battery powered air blower on the bins/shroud/cyclones of my Animal 3 once a month. That way I never have to take it apart and deal with that mess. Obviously all a bit silly though compared to bagged. I'm wondering if Dyson will leave the upright space soon since this is the only model left they sell, and it was very quietly released a few years ago. If they do the only bagless units left will be the Walmart brands.

 

[niclonnic]

It depends...

I've only ever had TWO Dysons in my home: a DC07 Animal (sold nearly 4 years ago) and a DC17 Absolute Animal (my current heavy-duty vacuum).

First off, the DC07's upwards-mounted inner cyclones filtered exceptionally well. And the shroud holes would get clogged with some fine dust every now and then. In the first several years of ownership, the pre-motor filter remained spotless. But if you vacuum up lots of fine materials like carpet powder or flour, this stuff will bypass the cyclones and create buildup on the filter. Although we stopped using carpet powder altogether, I eventually noticed grit and some hair building up on the filter. A few years ago, I made a post here on Vacuumland about this observation: https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?41052

Now, onto my current DC17. It filters just as well as the DC07, but the Achilles' heel is that the shroud gets clogged with fine dust MUCH faster than the older vacuum. This is exacerbated by the higher volume of fine dust pickup, thanks to the incredibly aggressive brushroll. Some of the hair and fluff will even make its way to the pre-motor filter over time.

Oh, and for the record, I have NEVER overfilled either of these machines. I, as well as everyone else in my family, have always emptied the bin right when the dirt reaches the MAX mark. In fact, we dump it after every single use.

 

[cheesewonton]

I'll probably get an earful saying this and it probably proves my fud-hood for all time but I think the best vacuum His Unholy Excremence Lord Diesoon ever designed was the old Amway Cleartrak, which soldiers on to this very day as the Workhorse. Still in production in Michigan. It was his first dual cyclone design but simple. It sits on a steel subframe and has what to me is a normal high quality brush roll. It is made to be durable for commercial use. If you do not over fill the dust bin ( nice clear line so no excuses other than laziness ) the filters do not become contaminated and they don't lose airflow. But if ever over fill it boy do you have a big mess to clean. I like simple unadorned but well thought out products. No flash, no neon ninja colors, no strange shapes, just a simple straightforward design that, as long as you don't overfill it, works fine.

 

[vac14012]

I'll probably get an earful saying this and it probably proves my fud-hood for all time but I think the best vacuum His Unholy Excremence Lord Diesoon ever designed was the old Amway Cleartrak, which soldiers on to this very day as the Workhorse. Still in production in Michigan. It was his first dual cyclone design but simple. It sits on a steel subframe and has what to me is a normal high quality brush roll. It is made to be durable for commercial use. If you do not over fill the dust bin ( nice clear line so no excuses other than laziness ) the filters do not become contaminated and they don't lose airflow. But if ever over fill it boy do you have a big mess to clean. I like simple unadorned but well thought out products. No flash, no neon ninja colors, no strange shapes, just a simple straightforward design that, as long as you don't overfill it, works fine.

Doesn't the Amway have almost zero filtration? So you're basically just blowing all the dust back out the exhaust? I've never used one but that's always what I read about it, since it was developed before more modern filtration standards.

I'd say the DC07 would be a better pick if you were trying to go old school. As it has an actual filtration system.

 

[cheesewonton]

Doesn't the Amway have almost zero filtration? So you're basically just blowing all the dust back out the exhaust? I've never used one but that's always what I read about it, since it was developed before more modern filtration standards.

I'd say the DC07 would be a better pick if you were trying to go old school. As it has an actual filtration system.

It has an after filter. What happens is if you over fill it you have a huge mess but if you don't overfill it the filters on them tend to stay clean. I think the bad rep comes from users overfilling them.

 

[panasonicvac]

I own three Amway machines myself and as much as I love these machines, I disagree that they had the best cyclone separation. My DC07 does a better job at keeping the pre motor filter cleaner. But not as good as the actual Panasonic/Kenmore bagless machines which by far has the best cyclone designs I've ever seen.

 

[niclonnic]

Although I've never owned an Amway myself, I do own its close relative: a 10 amp Fantom Fury. It does not have a pre-motor filter, instead relying on a metal "fluff trap" that is supposed to trap any dust and fluff that bypasses the dual-cyclonic system. Because Fantoms are collector's items, my Fury rarely gets used. Its motor bearings sound rather dry when winding down, so I need to get around to lubricating them one day.

Sometimes, I miss my DC07. My dad suddenly sold it nearly 4 years ago. It was lost to my mom (his ex) in my parents' divorce 11 years prior. But then I was fortunate enough to get it back after giving her a new Hoover vacuum for Valentine's Day in 2019. However, my dad was baffled as to why she foisted this vacuum back onto us. Personally, I had always deemed that Dyson to be unsuitable for my mom's small, pet-free, one-bedroom apartment. The box said, "Designed for homes with pets," and that was its intended purpose. All this rubbed me the wrong way.

Lately, I've been thinking about buying a Eureka Mighty Mite canister. I know it's bagged, but my primary intention is to use it for cleaning out other vacuums. Oh yeah, and it would be a great fit for cleaning cars.

 

[rlsellman21]

I don't have faith in cyclones.

If there purpose was to reduce/eliminate the need for regular filter cleaning/replacement, then they don't work well from what I've seen.

They work well for me. The pre motor filter on my Ball Animal 3 Extra takes several months to get dirty.

 

[rlsellman21]

I'll probably get an earful saying this and it probably proves my fud-hood for all time but I think the best vacuum His Unholy Excremence Lord Diesoon ever designed was the old Amway Cleartrak, which soldiers on to this very day as the Workhorse. Still in production in Michigan. It was his first dual cyclone design but simple. It sits on a steel subframe and has what to me is a normal high quality brush roll. It is made to be durable for commercial use. If you do not over fill the dust bin ( nice clear line so no excuses other than laziness ) the filters do not become contaminated and they don't lose airflow. But if ever over fill it boy do you have a big mess to clean. I like simple unadorned but well thought out products. No flash, no neon ninja colors, no strange shapes, just a simple straightforward design that, as long as you don't overfill it, works fine.

He didn't design them himself; Amway copied his technology. But yes, the ClearTrak/Workhorse Cyclonic is really good.

 

[vac14012]

I own three Amway machines myself and as much as I love these machines, I disagree that they had the best cyclone separation. My DC07 does a better job at keeping the pre motor filter cleaner. But not as good as the actual Panasonic/Kenmore bagless machines which by far as the best cyclone designs I've ever seen.

Wait. What Panasonic/Kenmore are you referring to? I tried googling but didn't find much.

 

[vac14012]

They work well for me. The pre motor filter on my Ball Animal 3 Extra takes several months to get dirty.

Honestly the DC40+ style Ball Dysons seem to never die. You can find so many in thrift stores still hanging on, that are probably just clogged and need a cleaning. And while the creaky and bendable plastic can make it feel "cheap", it does seem to prevent the machine from cracking.

 

[panasonicvac]

Wait. What Panasonic/Kenmore are you referring to? I tried googling but didn't find much.

Any Panasonics or Kenmores that adopted the multi cyclonic design when Dyson's patents expired like the 22614 you can still buy today.

 

[rlsellman21]

Honestly the DC40+ style Ball Dysons seem to never die. You can find so many in thrift stores still hanging on, that are probably just clogged and need a cleaning. And while the creaky and bendable plastic can make it feel "cheap", it does seem to prevent the machine from cracking.

The plastic is very durable. They flex, but under normal use, they won't break.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

And while the creaky and bendable plastic can make it feel "cheap", it does seem to prevent the machine from cracking.

This is an important point. Flex is engineered into good machines deliberately for this very reason; mechanical spring prevents cracking, as seen in many other products. The feeling of 'cheap' and 'flimsy' is completely subjective. To me, it feels like quality design.

 

[cheesewonton]

Any Panasonics or Kenmores that adopted the multi cyclonic design when Dyson's patents expired like the 22614 you can still buy today.

Not 100% sure but I would take a look at the Titan T8000 cyclonic bagless canister vacuum.

https://www.thinkvacuums.com/titan-t8000-cyclonic-bagless-canister-vacuum-cleaner.html

 

[vacerator]

My sister had a Dyson ball and said it was a royal pain to clean out clogs if it lost suction.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

Just once, I'd love someone to clearly show a repeatable methodology anyone can follow to reproduce a 'clog' using the machine as intended and instructed by the manufacturer. I mean, clogs are easy to make if you abuse or neglect a product, but that doesn't count. Interestingly, such a method has never materialised despite all the claims. Funny that...

 

[panasonicvac]

Not 100% sure but I would take a look at the Titan T8000 cyclonic bagless canister vacuum.

https://www.thinkvacuums.com/titan-t8000-cyclonic-bagless-canister-vacuum-cleaner.html

That one is basically similar but double the price. Makes no sense to me paying extra for it.

 

[cheesewonton]

Just once, I'd love someone to clearly show a repeatable methodology anyone can follow to reproduce a 'clog' using the machine as intended and instructed by the manufacturer. I mean, clogs are easy to make if you abuse or neglect a product, but that doesn't count. Interestingly, such a method has never materialised despite all the claims. Funny that...

The poor design of the suction hose segments from the nozzle base to the bag chamber of my Riccar Vibrance clogs routinely. The hose segments are oriented with the male side facing into the airflow. Hair and and other small debris jams into the sharp exposed joint and jams form. If Riccar had reversed the orientation of the male and female connections on that hose there would be no jams. The Panasonic Jet Flo design the Riccar Vibrance is a copy of doesn't have those joints in their suction hose and they don't suffer jams. As it is now the vacuum is self jamming so I don't use it.

 

[cheesewonton]

That one is basically similar but double the price. Makes no sense to me paying extra for it.

Double the price of what? A Kenmore or Panasonic branded vacuum that is no longer made? Have you seen the prices those budget lime green and orange Kenmore canisters are fetching on eBay lately? More than double the prices I paid for mine on clearance at Sears and K-Mart. If you want that design then Titan is the only game in town now. Still less expensive than a bagless Miele and arguably a better vacuum.

 

[panasonicvac]

Double the price of what? A Kenmore or Panasonic branded vacuum that is no longer made? Have you seen the prices those budget lime green and orange Kenmore canisters are fetching on eBay lately? More than double the prices I paid for mine on clearance at Sears and K-Mart. If you want that design then Titan is the only game in town now. Still less expensive than a bagless Miele and arguably a better vacuum.

The Kenmore 22614 is still available to get. I'd buy that over the Titan anyday. But thankfully I don't need either one because I already have Rainbows that I personally like better. Not to mention I'm not a canister or even a bagless fan myself.

https://www.amazon.com/Kenmore-Bagl...ea13da1828fe22942aaabf2&qid=1754595270&sr=8-8

 

[cheesewonton]

The Kenmore 22614 is still available to get. I'd buy that over the Titan anyday. But thankfully I don't need either one because I already have Rainbows that I personally like better. Not to mention I'm not a canister or even a bagless fan myself.

https://www.amazon.com/Kenmore-Bagl...ea13da1828fe22942aaabf2&qid=1754595270&sr=8-8

Hmm. I didn't realize they were still being made. Thought it died when Panasonic stopped making Kennys.

 

[vac14012]

Have you personally used one? How effective are the cyclones are keeping the filters clean? There's virtually no reviews on YT for it, or much of anywhere, seems kinda under the radar compared to their other models.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

The poor design of the suction hose segments from the nozzle base to the bag chamber of my Riccar Vibrance clogs routinely. The hose segments are oriented with the male side facing into the airflow. Hair and and other small debris jams into the sharp exposed joint and jams form. If Riccar had reversed the orientation of the male and female connections on that hose there would be no jams. The Panasonic Jet Flo design the Riccar Vibrance is a copy of doesn't have those joints in their suction hose and they don't suffer jams. As it is now the vacuum is self jamming so I don't use it.

I can see that. Although, I don't think they're referring to hose clogs. The allegations are often towards clogs in cyclones—hence the claims of being a "royal pain to clean out". It's this I reference my previous comment towards.

 

[vacerator]

Just once, I'd love someone to clearly show a repeatable methodology anyone can follow to reproduce a 'clog' using the machine as intended and instructed by the manufacturer. I mean, clogs are easy to make if you abuse or neglect a product, but that doesn't count. Interestingly, such a method has never materialised despite all the claims. Funny that...

They had two dogs that shed profusely. Her husband was a jerk who didn't know how to properly maintain anything. He even managed to break their Kirby.

 

[panasonicvac]

Have you personally used one? How effective are the cyclones are keeping the filters clean? There's virtually no reviews on YT for it, or much of anywhere, seems kinda under the radar compared to their other models.

Yes, at least from my experience of what I've seen they worked very well at keeping the pre-motor filter cleaner than the rest of the other multi cyclonic vacuums I've used. Not like brand new clean but clean where I probably wouldn't have to wash the filter out every time I'd use it.

Regarding Dyson clogging, there is one video I've seen where a Dyson slowly clogged the pre-motor filter on tape. But to it's defense, I'd NEVER use Capture ever again on my carpeting or any other dry carpet cleaning powder.

 

[Vacuum Facts]

They had two dogs that shed profusely. Her husband was a jerk who didn't know how to properly maintain anything. He even managed to break their Kirby.

Ah makes sense now. Neglect = failure, in which case it's user error not manufacturer design weakness.

 

[cheesewonton]

No mention of what broke on the Kirby but they are far from indestructible. The Neutral Drive mechanism is prone to wear and need replacement often. Some new Kirby's like ours came with inadequate lubrication on the rear axle that prevented that moving gear from fully disengaging from the cam lever so it was always clickity-clicking when you pushed it in neutral. I took it apart, cleaned and lubed it correctly. No more clicking in neutral. I now await the day the spines on the Neutral Drive shift shaft loose their grip and the thing falls out the back. Common failure. Already have the replacement part stashed way for the inevitable. Not so hard to break a fan on them either. For such a big and heavy piece of machinery there are some aspects of how a Kirby is built that are surprisingly cheap and flimsy.