beko1987
Well-known member
That senior came up well! You doign a video once it has a new belt and brushes?! It's one machien that I've never had! Prices go too high for me, and I've never seen one locally or on freecycle!
a bargain at 99p on ebay
- Thread starter anthony
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I am astounded that Which? used the fact the dust bags could not be re-used as a negative? I know this was the era of open top bags which could be re-used, but by saying what they did they made it sound like bags SHOULD be re-used!
They most certainly should not. Once a bag has been filled once the pores in the paper are already clogged with micro-dust particleks and emptying the "physical" dirt will not restore 100% of the air flow, thus rendering it a very risky thing to do repeatedly if you wish your vacuum cleaner to perform well and (in the case of clean fans) last a long time.
I have to leave now for an interview, but will post more later.
They most certainly should not. Once a bag has been filled once the pores in the paper are already clogged with micro-dust particleks and emptying the "physical" dirt will not restore 100% of the air flow, thus rendering it a very risky thing to do repeatedly if you wish your vacuum cleaner to perform well and (in the case of clean fans) last a long time.
I have to leave now for an interview, but will post more later.
beko1987
Well-known member
I never got the 'reuseable bag' thing either. I'll re-use it if I;ve been vacuuming up shredded paper etc, or more usually with the turbopowers is just swap one bag around them all, thus saving on bags (use non genuine ones too for normal use, saves the genuine bags!)
On a machine like a dirty fan, havign a ruined bag must ruin the performance completely!
On a machine like a dirty fan, havign a ruined bag must ruin the performance completely!
"On a machine like a dirty fan, havign a ruined bag must ruin the performance completely!" Well there is that, but even more serious would be with a clean fan (such as the Convertible) that a re-used bag will restrict air flow (and thus motor cooling) and could also burst.
Now I know Hoover produced H4 and H18 "twice use" bags, but this was simply to appease people who may have been put off buying or maintaining a bagged machine due to the price of buying bags. The fact they could use one bag twice would have halved their running costs and "sweetened the pill", so to speak.
Indeed it worked and many people used the re-usable bags more than twice, often into double figures even (my 1994 Turbopower 1000 had a twice-use bag in it when I got it which looked to have been used for years). Needless to say a couple of years into my ownership the years of neglect took its toll and the motor blew.
As I stated above, once a dust bag has been filled to half way the pores are already clogged up with dust and although emptying the bag will restore suction, this is to the detriment of the motor as it will be having to work very hard to counteract the impeded air flow. Much like if you load a car up with heavy cargo then floor the accelerator - it will still accelerate well but the engine and transmission will be working terribly hard to counteract the weight.
Of course Hoover knew exactly what they were doing, and that people would use the bags more than twice. This was actually very much in their interests as more broken down vacuums mean more people buying new Hoovers, or at the very least getting them repaired by Hoover contractors.
In every sense the introduction of clean fan vacuum cleaners has been a godsend for manufacturers as - by their very nature - they wear out much quicker than dirty fan cleaners (on which having a full or re-used bag does no damage at all, other than to impede performance), but they are also much more practical so consumers will happily buy them all the same.
Now I know Hoover produced H4 and H18 "twice use" bags, but this was simply to appease people who may have been put off buying or maintaining a bagged machine due to the price of buying bags. The fact they could use one bag twice would have halved their running costs and "sweetened the pill", so to speak.
Indeed it worked and many people used the re-usable bags more than twice, often into double figures even (my 1994 Turbopower 1000 had a twice-use bag in it when I got it which looked to have been used for years). Needless to say a couple of years into my ownership the years of neglect took its toll and the motor blew.
As I stated above, once a dust bag has been filled to half way the pores are already clogged up with dust and although emptying the bag will restore suction, this is to the detriment of the motor as it will be having to work very hard to counteract the impeded air flow. Much like if you load a car up with heavy cargo then floor the accelerator - it will still accelerate well but the engine and transmission will be working terribly hard to counteract the weight.
Of course Hoover knew exactly what they were doing, and that people would use the bags more than twice. This was actually very much in their interests as more broken down vacuums mean more people buying new Hoovers, or at the very least getting them repaired by Hoover contractors.
In every sense the introduction of clean fan vacuum cleaners has been a godsend for manufacturers as - by their very nature - they wear out much quicker than dirty fan cleaners (on which having a full or re-used bag does no damage at all, other than to impede performance), but they are also much more practical so consumers will happily buy them all the same.
bag reuse
i am having a quiet little laugh at all this talk about bag usage and thinking of my mum and our old Hoover junior that poor old thing got some hammer the bag was used over and over again till it fell apart or burst only then would a new one be fitted most of my relatives did the same as i got older and learned more about these things i would change the bag when i thought it was getting a bit full i would also get vacs in the shop absolutely full to bursting .Have any of you ever been around a junior when the over full bag bursts theres dust everywhere and its almost as if the machine gives a sigh of relief when its screaming motor starts to suck again
i am having a quiet little laugh at all this talk about bag usage and thinking of my mum and our old Hoover junior that poor old thing got some hammer the bag was used over and over again till it fell apart or burst only then would a new one be fitted most of my relatives did the same as i got older and learned more about these things i would change the bag when i thought it was getting a bit full i would also get vacs in the shop absolutely full to bursting .Have any of you ever been around a junior when the over full bag bursts theres dust everywhere and its almost as if the machine gives a sigh of relief when its screaming motor starts to suck again
sebo_fan
Well-known member
JM, as usual, what a lot of old hoof!
Sometimes your lack of knowledge really amazes me.
Before the disposable bags came along, permanent dust bags were of the shake out variety and at that time "Which" were only going with what they had previously with the design. Are you suggesting then that a material shake out bag on a Hoover Junior was detrimental if it wasn't washed every time?
As usual, instead of slating what has gone before, why not try and see things from that point in that period of time?
To suggest that a clean air vacuum breaks down far more frequently when its dust bag is reused time and time again which blows the motor is mere opinion - not all brands do the same and its down to the owner who will choose to clean the on board filter as well as the dust bag - and I really wish you would cease making these statements - they are not true given that some brands last longer than others, both of the clean fan variety AND dirty fan variety.
As for your cooling of the dirty fan on a Hoover Junior - so what? It still has to pick up stones and natural grit. That breaks the fan unless you have a metal model. Clean fan allows all that to bypass with a sealed motor.
Sometimes your lack of knowledge really amazes me.
Before the disposable bags came along, permanent dust bags were of the shake out variety and at that time "Which" were only going with what they had previously with the design. Are you suggesting then that a material shake out bag on a Hoover Junior was detrimental if it wasn't washed every time?
As usual, instead of slating what has gone before, why not try and see things from that point in that period of time?
To suggest that a clean air vacuum breaks down far more frequently when its dust bag is reused time and time again which blows the motor is mere opinion - not all brands do the same and its down to the owner who will choose to clean the on board filter as well as the dust bag - and I really wish you would cease making these statements - they are not true given that some brands last longer than others, both of the clean fan variety AND dirty fan variety.
As for your cooling of the dirty fan on a Hoover Junior - so what? It still has to pick up stones and natural grit. That breaks the fan unless you have a metal model. Clean fan allows all that to bypass with a sealed motor.
With all due respect Sebo_Fan - there were no shake-out bagged Hoovers (or any other brand to my very low knowledge) on sale at the time of that review, so I don't see how they could be comparing the Convertible to a model with shake-out bag?
I don't see where you have a problem with my statement regarding clean fan vacuum cleaners breaking down more often than dirty fan equivalents? A clean fan vacuum has to pull air through the bag and filters before reaching the motor - at which point it cools the commutator etc... As is going to happen even if you keep the filters clean and bag regularly changed, the air flow is going to decrease and as such the cooling will disipate. Over time that lack of cooling (exaserbated by Hoover producing re-usable bags which were frequently used more than twice) will lead to premature motor failure. I'm not saying they'd break down overnight - indeed it may take years - but they will, generally, break down quicker than dirty fan vacuums which don't rely on 100% airflow to cool the motor.
Yes there will be dirty fan vacuums which are poorly made and break down earlier, or suffer damage from picking up stones et cetera, but generally speaking they will last longer (Benny himself said the Hoover Juniors and Seniors could last forever).
After posting my reply I actually thought it was free from any contention, but it seems not.
Once again I'm sorry that you disagree with what I said and consider it "old hoof". I hope one day I am knowledgeable enough to make a post that you can agree with, but that doesn't look terribly likely.
I don't see where you have a problem with my statement regarding clean fan vacuum cleaners breaking down more often than dirty fan equivalents? A clean fan vacuum has to pull air through the bag and filters before reaching the motor - at which point it cools the commutator etc... As is going to happen even if you keep the filters clean and bag regularly changed, the air flow is going to decrease and as such the cooling will disipate. Over time that lack of cooling (exaserbated by Hoover producing re-usable bags which were frequently used more than twice) will lead to premature motor failure. I'm not saying they'd break down overnight - indeed it may take years - but they will, generally, break down quicker than dirty fan vacuums which don't rely on 100% airflow to cool the motor.
Yes there will be dirty fan vacuums which are poorly made and break down earlier, or suffer damage from picking up stones et cetera, but generally speaking they will last longer (Benny himself said the Hoover Juniors and Seniors could last forever).
After posting my reply I actually thought it was free from any contention, but it seems not.
Once again I'm sorry that you disagree with what I said and consider it "old hoof". I hope one day I am knowledgeable enough to make a post that you can agree with, but that doesn't look terribly likely.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
If you have very low knowledge....
Building up knowledge is by reading and reading between the lines.
If these Which reports are stating that a negative statistic is the lack of shake out bags, then clearly you can tell what vacuums prior to that date of testing had that option. Shake out bags were quite common - I found many with the Junior models I bought years ago. They were not as porous as paper dust bags and they did not ruin those machines when the changeover to paper bags were installed. The cloth was a little porous, evident by the excess dust coating the outer bag inside. You will probably have seen it yourself - a slight downside to the soft bag design in general compared to hard box - regardless I may add, of whether the machine has had a permanent material dust bag or a paper bag throughout its life.
Your statement regarding to why brands are now making clean fan vacuums is NOT about wear and tear, or shortage of life etc. Infact the very thought that brands are purposefully producing clean air vacs so that they don't have a long life is foolhardy - clean air vacs were basically introduced so that additional hoses could be added AND also allowing better filtered air.
Yet again, as with previous posts, you come back to heralding everything with a positive slant at Hoover's door for their classic uprights. Well, sorry not any more - move on - respect those who have other vintage brands once and for all.
Building up knowledge is by reading and reading between the lines.
If these Which reports are stating that a negative statistic is the lack of shake out bags, then clearly you can tell what vacuums prior to that date of testing had that option. Shake out bags were quite common - I found many with the Junior models I bought years ago. They were not as porous as paper dust bags and they did not ruin those machines when the changeover to paper bags were installed. The cloth was a little porous, evident by the excess dust coating the outer bag inside. You will probably have seen it yourself - a slight downside to the soft bag design in general compared to hard box - regardless I may add, of whether the machine has had a permanent material dust bag or a paper bag throughout its life.
Your statement regarding to why brands are now making clean fan vacuums is NOT about wear and tear, or shortage of life etc. Infact the very thought that brands are purposefully producing clean air vacs so that they don't have a long life is foolhardy - clean air vacs were basically introduced so that additional hoses could be added AND also allowing better filtered air.
Yet again, as with previous posts, you come back to heralding everything with a positive slant at Hoover's door for their classic uprights. Well, sorry not any more - move on - respect those who have other vintage brands once and for all.
I agree with what you've said there, except this paragraph:
"Your statement regarding to why brands are now making clean fan vacuums is NOT about wear and tear, or shortage of life etc. Infact the very thought that brands are purposefully producing clean air vacs so that they don't have a long life is foolhardy - clean air vacs were basically introduced so that additional hoses could be added AND also allowing better filtered air."
I never said manufacturers made clean fan vacuum cleaners for the purpose of minimising service life, but rather that it was a plus for them all the same.
"Your statement regarding to why brands are now making clean fan vacuums is NOT about wear and tear, or shortage of life etc. Infact the very thought that brands are purposefully producing clean air vacs so that they don't have a long life is foolhardy - clean air vacs were basically introduced so that additional hoses could be added AND also allowing better filtered air."
I never said manufacturers made clean fan vacuum cleaners for the purpose of minimising service life, but rather that it was a plus for them all the same.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
EH?? GO TO REPLY 42:
End paragraph:
" In every sense the introduction of clean fan vacuum cleaners has been a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">godsend for manufacturers as - by their very nature - they wear out much quicker than dirty fan cleaners</span> (on which having a full or re-used bag does no damage at all, other than to impede performance), but they are also much more practical so consumers will happily buy them all the same..."
End paragraph:
" In every sense the introduction of clean fan vacuum cleaners has been a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">godsend for manufacturers as - by their very nature - they wear out much quicker than dirty fan cleaners</span> (on which having a full or re-used bag does no damage at all, other than to impede performance), but they are also much more practical so consumers will happily buy them all the same..."
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Do I have to explain this to you?
By adding the words at the start of the sentence reflecting what you said before, "in EVERY SENSE,."
Well, how can it be every sense when some certain brands last longer than others? You can't turn back what you have said Jamie. You can't go back on what you referred to and then try and dodge the issue here - you can't tar every brand's clean fan vacuums with the same brush.
In the same breath, IF manufacturers could see into the future of producing clean air vacs just for them to break down in order for buyers to keep buying, it hasn't really worked - Hoover would have greater sales over other brands - but as we know, it's not really the case - either judged by Mintel reports or reports from other actual organisations that collect reliability data etc. Whether or not you want to believe in them is up to you.
By adding the words at the start of the sentence reflecting what you said before, "in EVERY SENSE,."
Well, how can it be every sense when some certain brands last longer than others? You can't turn back what you have said Jamie. You can't go back on what you referred to and then try and dodge the issue here - you can't tar every brand's clean fan vacuums with the same brush.
In the same breath, IF manufacturers could see into the future of producing clean air vacs just for them to break down in order for buyers to keep buying, it hasn't really worked - Hoover would have greater sales over other brands - but as we know, it's not really the case - either judged by Mintel reports or reports from other actual organisations that collect reliability data etc. Whether or not you want to believe in them is up to you.
3
just waiting for the new brushes to turn up and i can get the lid back on .the bag flange is fitted and the bag is ready to go back on you can just see the bottom of it in the pic i also fitted a new bellows the old one hadnt split but it wasnt far off i have polished the hood with chrome cleaner and its looking good but there are one or two deep scratches still cant expect it to be perfect
just waiting for the new brushes to turn up and i can get the lid back on .the bag flange is fitted and the bag is ready to go back on you can just see the bottom of it in the pic i also fitted a new bellows the old one hadnt split but it wasnt far off i have polished the hood with chrome cleaner and its looking good but there are one or two deep scratches still cant expect it to be perfect
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
This looks outstanding. One point though, the twist in the belt is on the wrong side.
