Will the current vacuum industry ever change to something like it used to be?

[sebo_fan]

Gizmos on vacs have been here before...

Electrolux, Hoover, AEG and other brands were all doing that in the 1980s on TOL machines and some machines weren't even produced in the UK!

 

[nycwriter]

oliveoiltinfoil ...

... you have touched on only a tiny part of a much larger and deeper problem.

The one-word answer, unfortunately, is "no".

Why?

I can't speak for the U.K., but only for what I see here in the U.S. (which is most likely the same dynamic going on in all Western economies), but there are several factors at play:

-- With the erosion of organized labor, worker bees have been losing control over the "say" they have in their jobs over the past generation.

-- As a result, corporate owners have had no legal obligation to keep wages in pace with rising inflation and the astounding profits they've enjoyed over this period of time (and without a legal obligation, they sure as hell won't do it out of any sense of ethics, as we've all seen).

-- Globalization and "free trade" agreements have made it almost a no-brainer for companies to move middle-class jobs into third world hellholes where they can hire labor for pennies on the dollar.

-- Consumers' appetite for cheap third-world imports grows by leaps and bounds, thanks to tbeir ever-shrinking paychecks.

-- Even companies run by ethical executives who choose to keep jobs in America are finding that paying AMERICANS a living wage to build their products puts their products at a nearly impossible competitive disadvantage against cheap imports, quality notwithstanding.

 

[turbo500]

Matt has hit the nail right on the head.

It's all cost, I'm afraid. The fact of the matter is, it's so much cheaper to manufacture in Poland, China and other countries where wages and resources are lower and in greater demand.

Whilst certain companies (Miele, Numatic, Sebo, Kirby, Aerus and Riccar to name a few) are proud of their herritage and continue to manufacture in their home countries, the majority aren't on board with them.

Just take TTI as a prime example. They make UK Vax, US Hoover, Dirt Devil and a heap of cheap, bagless vacuums. Why would they move production out of the far east when it's so much cheaper to remain there and make larger profits?

 

[DesertTortoise]

Don't look now but some of that production is leaving China. It has become anything but inexpensive there. My soon to be wife hails from Shanghai originally and most of her family remains there. The cost of living there makes places like Los Angeles look bargain basement. A 1000 square foot flat fetches as much as a good sized detatched house on a 1/4 acre lot in the US. Rents are similarly astonomical. A 1 kg (2.2 lbs ) fresh chicken costs over 100 Yuen, or over $15 USD. Fifteen bucks for a chicken. Worker bees there can't afford that. Fresh veggies cost about $3 per pound USD. Pork and fish are as expensive as that chicken. Add to that a great fear of contaminted meat and dairy products and my soon to be in-laws survive almost entirely on vegetables. Meat is for very special occasions. US and other foreign firms have to factor this into the cost of recruiting management or engineering talent for their Chinese operations. As air and water pollution increase, fears of contaminated food and it's high price make China a place fewer want to work in. Their wealthy are buying up homes in San Jose CA as fast as they can, cash deals, then they go back to China to bring their families and money to the US where the air, water and food are safe, the schools (at least in San Jose) outstanding, they can own land and pass it down to their children. I do business in the Chinese community up there and this is the dynamic right now. Homes close days after listing, all cash deals, as the Chinese business and government elite flee PRC with their money.

Land and energy in China are several times as expensive as they are in the US. Outright land ownership is illegal. All land is owned by the state and the best one can get is a long term lease. Manufacturers may not own their operations either but are required to take a Chinese equity "partner" that is chosen for them by the Chinese government, a "partner" who's sole purpose is to learn your business, steal your technology and eventually undercut your price after a batallion of government "inspectors" write the foreign firm a metric buttload of fines for all manner of imagined violations of obscure rules. That's their MO, steal your tech, drive you out and then undercut your price selling your tech to the world. As manufactured goods use more automation and less labor to produce, the economics of producing in China stop making sense and the work has been returning to the US where energy and land are a bargain compared to most of the world, and a business can have complete control of their operations and intellectual property.

 

[oliveoiltinfoil]

I still maintain that things are changing. It may take 10 years or more, but this "made in china" craze has been more of a bubble. These companies can not exploit cheap labour forever. As chinas economy is expanding, so are its living standards, along with wages they pay their workers. Even tight Chinese businessman cant hold off these environmentalist and human rights organisation forever. Apple recently said they had to double the wages they paid their workers at their foxconn plant in china, ultimately making it that less competitive a country to produce goods in.

And that's another thing. How come Riccar, Numatic, Miele and Sebo can still produce products in their native country, yet still be profitable and be able to expand?

I have already said this but it is to do with automated assembly. The Miele factory in Germany which produces their washing machines is nearly all done by robots, even the packaging.

Also, companies are getting more incentives from governments now to produce things in Britain, or the US. You buy a British and products, those profits go to the british company, who are able to pay their workers. That is one more tax payer, one more person who is able to support themselves.

 

[hi-loswitch98]

Miele, Sebo, Kirby, Riccar & Numatic stick to what their good at & keep producing it. If you think about it really the whole shape of all these companies has not changed since they began. Numatic based Henry on their commercial cleaners & Henry's have hardly changed in the last 30 odd years despite a couple of cosmetic differences & higher power motors added over the years (but of course now they're a lower wattage than they've ever been).

If Vax wasn't snapped up by TTi then they would still be producing their Wet & Dry machines in Droitwich. They would have probably been like Numatic, renowned for their reliability but of course that went pear-shaped.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I still wish that small bagged vacuum cleaners that sold for about £30 were still being made. I bought a Daewoo RC350BK from B&M for £29.99 a few days ago & that beats most of Vax/Hoover's Cheapo Cylinders.

 

[DesertTortoise]

Riccar, Miele, Sebo and the like are not inexpensive vacuums. Most working people who struggle to pay the rent or mortgage while feeding the family and trying often vainly to save for the kids college cannot begin to justify paying many hundreds of dollars to, in the case of some Riccars, Kirbys and such, four figure price tags for a mere vacuum. Even being able to afford something expensive like that I cannot justify it in light of other pressing demands on the family budget.

 

[Gr8DaneDad]

it's not difficult to justify the expense of a good vacuum. Invariably, over 10 years you will save many $$ and with care a well built vacuuum, such as the brands you list, will last 15-20 or more years and the savings just multiply. Just went through this exercise with my sister... in the last 5 years she's bought 7 vacuums at an average of $137 each ($959). That would have paid for any of those vacuums and it would still be working instead of in the trash, a pile of broken plastic. False economy just costs more.

 

[vintagerepairer]

Vax & TTI

To be fair though, had Vax not been "snapped up" by TTI, the whole of the company would probably have gone to the wall. The product was dated, and the only "value" in Vax was in the name, not the product. I doubt the Vax name would be here today in any form, had it not been taken over.

 

[sebo_fan]

I agree Benny.

There has been a lot of comments from previous members on here who have slated the brand because of one or two problems with one specific model. However, I've been happy with TTI and I agree with their decision to take over Vax.

Had TTI not taken over, Vax would either have wound down or taken over by Hoover Candy. One can only imagine how things "could have been." I think Vax are safer with TTI than Hoover Candy IMHO.

 

[DesertTortoise]

I agree in part Gr8DaneDad, my whole life I have practiced buying good quality items and then taking very good care of them. That is why my "daily driver" is a thirty year old Kenmore canister and why I am now so adept and disassembling Powermates and resurrecting them when they die. My fiancee rolls her eyes at the age of some of the stuff I use and how careful I am with it. She tears things up like most people do then expects new. Then the fight begins .........

For most working families coming up with that initial $800-$900 to purchase a high end vacuum is daunting with all the other demands on one's finances. I don't know if you ever spent any time down in the bottom of the heap, but I did and I remember what a struggle it was, and I was one of the smarter ones who never, ever for any reason borrowed money or used credit. I always had some money in the bank, just in case, but coughing up that much money in one chunk for a household product? I hit the thrift stores or prowled the Penny Saver for second hand items when buying big ticket household goods. This is, I think, why cheap nasty vacuums will be with us for a long time (same with washer/dryer combos, boy have they all gone down the tubes, anyone remember the stainless steel drums of Speed Queen washers and dryers?). What I cannot get over is how chintzy the top of the line Kenmore Intuition canister is for how much Sears is asking for the thing. That, friends, to me is an insult.

 

[Gr8DaneDad]

DesertTortise,


 


I've been at the bottom of the heap for a good portion of my life. I'm there now due to illness/health issue and location, though things have gotten better over the last 2 years. Even so, I've never bought garbage. I've scoured thrift stores, yard/garage sales and even the streets on trash day to find better quality that I could afford. If that wasn't an option, I saved and then negotiate the best cash deal I can.

 

[luxman107]

GreatdaneDad

"it's not difficult to justify the expense of a good vacuum. Invariably, over 10 years you will save many $$ and with care a well built vacuuum, such as the brands you list, will last 15-20 or more years and the savings just multiply. Just went through this exercise with my sister... in the last 5 years she's bought 7 vacuums at an average of $137 each ($959). That would have paid for any of those vacuums and it would still be working instead of in the trash, a pile of broken plastic. False economy just costs more."


I agree 100. % in addition to the fact that those bargain cheaply made machines just pump half the dirt back onto the air

 

[sebo_fan]

£29, £39, £49, £59

Hi-LO, you're expecting the same cost price of all those cheap small bagged cylinder vacs that Argos used to sell in the 1990s.

For the cost price then, it simply 'aint gonna happen now. The recession has meant prices hikes have had to go up.

The Daewoo model you speak of may well be a bargain but I bet finding bags will be hard on the high street. Unless you solely shop online, or you are that kind of a buyer, then yes it is probably a bargain. I thought the AFK model I bought from Makro many moons ago was a bargain - it came with free dust bags and then I learnt that sourcing bags for it to be a major problem!

Hoover's 2.3 litre capacity Whirlwind cylinder vac at £59-99 is a budget special bargain. Okay, so it may not have the same capacity as the Daewoo but you can bet you'll be able to source bags for at a wider source of stockists; same with Electrolux and other brands.

Some buyers are now beginning to realise that by buying the cheapest isn't the easiest in terms of added consumables required. Even with bagless vacs like Tesco or ASDA's own machines, obtaining a spare filter if the original one has perished can be difficult. I found the same with the Argos bagged upright - a terrific vacuum cleaner but unless I returned to Argos all the time (and not always in stock) to buy the bags or consider sellers online, there is no other clear or easy way to obtain dust bags for that model.

 

[hi-loswitch98]

I didn't mean 1990's machines, I meant the ones sold in the early 2000's from £25-£50.

I have found a stockist for the Daewoo bags & Wilko also sell their own version too.

Hoovers Whirlwind Bagged Cylinder uses Electrolux Powerlite Cylinder Dust Bags also. I was comparing the Daewoo Cylinder vac as a good alternative to some Hoover & Vax cleaners.

 

[sebo_fan]

Does the Daewoo come with metal or plastic pipes?

 

[hi-loswitch98]

Metal extension pipes.

 

[djub85]

Do American-made vacuum companies even advertise anymore? How is anyone to know that Aerus is the new name for Electrolux, or that they're even for sale? Much less that they're made in America...


 


Granted, I doubt Aerus would ever put an ad in Car & Driver magazine (the only genre of magazine I subscribe to), but you'd think there would be some television advertising at least. I see Dyson all the time on TV, but they're made in Malaysia, I think.  It would be nice to see Aerus on TV reminding people that they exist and that their products are made in the USA.


 


As a whole, American-made vacuums have little-to-no advertising time. I think seeing that change would brighten the future and doom fewer brands to Chinese manufacture in the future.

 

[DesertTortoise]

In decades past Sears advertised their vacuums just about everywhere.