ajr2993
Active member
Simple, because of the lack of airflow. The bypass vacuums have a long hose that restricts airflow and the airpath is off to one side, whereas the direct air vacuums have a much simpler airpath.
Why do bypass vacuums have such terrible deep-cleaning performance?
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panasonicvac
Well-known member
Are you aware however that bypass machines are much more favorable when it comes to all other surface cleaning and filtration? Are you also aware that there are some bypass machines that can outperform some direct air machines? And are you aware that alot of bypass machines are more reliable than direct air machines?
Name the examples of clean air machines that can do better than the direct air ones.I have a Sebo clean air vacuums-X4,X7 I think it is that can do about as well as direct airs.The Sebo machines are the ONLY clean air vacuums I like.Yes,as been said AIRFLOW-CFM is where direct air machines are better.With newer Filtrete style bags those have improved BOTH designs over paper bags.And with direct air the air intake in the middle better distributes airflow over the width of the floor nozzle-as opposed to many clean air machies with the intake on one side of the nozzle.And to make the machines BETTER-do away with the hose!Their hoses are good only for picking cobwebs out of corners-not to be used as a canister vacuum-unless you can use an extension hose.For my carpet cleaning uprights stick with direct air machines like Kirby and metal Royal.Also Sanitaire is another good one.
Honestly it’s all design and engineering
Yes all those factors such as air having to travel through a long path and motor and fan size etc all have to do with it. Most consumers want convenience and low cost but the manufacturers want low build cost so that results in what we see in most plastic vacuums of today. Bypass designs, poor suction at the hose…bagless designs, and small single stage motors that run at high rpm’s. And to compensate these manufacturers equip the machines with thick stuff plastic bristles roller brushes which wear out the carpet but the purpose is for the roller brush to loosen the pile better so the poor suction can actually do some cleaning. When someone buys expensive dice carpet or rugs they really shouldn’t use a vacuum engineered in this manner on the carpet or it will cause excessive wear to the carpets.
I always noticed when I had a Hoover direct air with attachments that attached to the bottom of the cleaner that it worked great on the carpet but was very poor on attachment suction even thought the gasket was in good shape for the cover plate.
The direct air vacuums with their giant bags end up suffering from poor suction as the bag fills with dirt. Efficiency goes away with just 1/3 of the bag full from my observation because fine dirt clogs all the pores even where there is not a lot of dirt. Most people don’t want to change these large bags at that low amount of dirt in them as that can seem wasteful and some of these bags are expensive and end up using the machine with low suction. I discovered this as I changed the bag on my Eureka commercial when about 1/3 full and when I ran it with the new bag there was a huge difference in suction power. Poor bag quality hampers suction too. I always noticed the 4 ply Electrolux bags work much better at maintaining suction than the two ply ones but unfortunately there aren’t a lot of 4 ply bags made for many vacuums.
Jon
Yes all those factors such as air having to travel through a long path and motor and fan size etc all have to do with it. Most consumers want convenience and low cost but the manufacturers want low build cost so that results in what we see in most plastic vacuums of today. Bypass designs, poor suction at the hose…bagless designs, and small single stage motors that run at high rpm’s. And to compensate these manufacturers equip the machines with thick stuff plastic bristles roller brushes which wear out the carpet but the purpose is for the roller brush to loosen the pile better so the poor suction can actually do some cleaning. When someone buys expensive dice carpet or rugs they really shouldn’t use a vacuum engineered in this manner on the carpet or it will cause excessive wear to the carpets.
I always noticed when I had a Hoover direct air with attachments that attached to the bottom of the cleaner that it worked great on the carpet but was very poor on attachment suction even thought the gasket was in good shape for the cover plate.
The direct air vacuums with their giant bags end up suffering from poor suction as the bag fills with dirt. Efficiency goes away with just 1/3 of the bag full from my observation because fine dirt clogs all the pores even where there is not a lot of dirt. Most people don’t want to change these large bags at that low amount of dirt in them as that can seem wasteful and some of these bags are expensive and end up using the machine with low suction. I discovered this as I changed the bag on my Eureka commercial when about 1/3 full and when I ran it with the new bag there was a huge difference in suction power. Poor bag quality hampers suction too. I always noticed the 4 ply Electrolux bags work much better at maintaining suction than the two ply ones but unfortunately there aren’t a lot of 4 ply bags made for many vacuums.
Jon
fanofvacuums2
Active member
I do not think that all clean air or bypass designs do a bad job at cleaning carpet. In fact, there are quite a few that I have owned that clean absurdly well. For example, the Kenmore 31150/BU1017/BU1018 is a budget vacuum cleaner that I have found to outperform quite a few direct-air machines. Most high-end models from brands such as SEBO and Miele perform super well too. You just have to pick a right one.
I am not majorly into citing metrics, especially numbers such as "air watts" and "working vacuum" that demonstrate little about cleaning ability, but it is fun to look at airflow and suction numbers and try to find correlations. As far as those metrics go, there are advantages and disadvantages to both clean-air and direct-air designs. To list one, it is far easier to make a blower design that produces more pressure in a clean-air design, because the clearances can be stupidly tight since they do not need to pass dirt and debris. On the other hand, they need that extra pressure to maintain performance through longer piping. Some clean-air machines have not gotten that balance right over the years, to put it simply, but many have. Plus, hose performance is way better on a clean-air machine due to this. This may be controversial, but some companies have even made bagless and cordless vacuum cleaners with impressive cleaning performance. I could go on and on and on, but you get the point. Give them a chance!
I am not majorly into citing metrics, especially numbers such as "air watts" and "working vacuum" that demonstrate little about cleaning ability, but it is fun to look at airflow and suction numbers and try to find correlations. As far as those metrics go, there are advantages and disadvantages to both clean-air and direct-air designs. To list one, it is far easier to make a blower design that produces more pressure in a clean-air design, because the clearances can be stupidly tight since they do not need to pass dirt and debris. On the other hand, they need that extra pressure to maintain performance through longer piping. Some clean-air machines have not gotten that balance right over the years, to put it simply, but many have. Plus, hose performance is way better on a clean-air machine due to this. This may be controversial, but some companies have even made bagless and cordless vacuum cleaners with impressive cleaning performance. I could go on and on and on, but you get the point. Give them a chance!
Like everything in life, it depends. My carpet cleaner recently restretched and made a repair to the carpet in one of the bedrooms and he remarked how clean the carpet and floor underneath were. I have a central vacuum. I have no doubt that it performs as well or better than any direct air machine. And you can put all the HEPA bags on that you want but you will never have a sealed system on a direct air. It will leak.
tseg
Well-known member
Has anyone ever made a hybrid, where there is direct air in floor mode, but can convert to bypass when the hose is in use so one can get proper suction and use various suction-driven attachments?
panasonicvac
Well-known member
Yes
Ever heard of a Tandem Air upright from Riccar or Simplicity before?
Ever heard of a Tandem Air upright from Riccar or Simplicity before?
tseg
Well-known member
panasonicvac: interesting that reviews of this tandem air machine have it producing such lackluster results.
https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?39600
https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?39600
panasonicvac
Well-known member
Personally, I think the Tandem Air vacuums are very powerful machines for what they are. Especially the canisters and even central vacuums. I was BLOWN away when I first used one. And I've never regretted selling one when I used to work at a vacuum store. My personal favorite and the best one that I've ever used would be this red Simplicity Synchrony Premium. I wished I bought one of these back when they were still selling new instead of my black Simplicity Symmetry Deluxe that I used to have. Not that I didn't like it because I loved my Symmetry. But I felt that the Synchrony was better suited for me. It is in my opinion the second best vacuum that I've ever used on carpets, the Royal 1030Z that I used to own is the best one. And the second best overall upright that I've ever used, the Lindhaus HealthCare Pro is the best one.
panasonicvac
Well-known member
Rex
I apologies for skipping over you. I could list many machines but I'll give you an example of one here. Take the NSS M1 "PIG", the most powerful direct air machine ever made. Compare that to the ProTeam Super CoachVac. The Super Coach is going to pick up better. Because it has more suction combined with airflow since it's a bypass motor design. I definitely do agree with you about the SEBO X Series. I have the blue X5 which I'm so in love with. It is overall in my humble opinion tied with the red Simplicity Synchrony Premium as the second overall best upright vacuum that I've ever used by far. But the problem with direct air machines is that you do need to change out belts, you can risk breaking the fan if you pick up objects that you shouldn't have, they're not as easy using the attachments nor do they do the best job at cleaning other surface areas, and the motors are still going to leak out dirt and carbon dust that doesn't go through the bag.
I apologies for skipping over you. I could list many machines but I'll give you an example of one here. Take the NSS M1 "PIG", the most powerful direct air machine ever made. Compare that to the ProTeam Super CoachVac. The Super Coach is going to pick up better. Because it has more suction combined with airflow since it's a bypass motor design. I definitely do agree with you about the SEBO X Series. I have the blue X5 which I'm so in love with. It is overall in my humble opinion tied with the red Simplicity Synchrony Premium as the second overall best upright vacuum that I've ever used by far. But the problem with direct air machines is that you do need to change out belts, you can risk breaking the fan if you pick up objects that you shouldn't have, they're not as easy using the attachments nor do they do the best job at cleaning other surface areas, and the motors are still going to leak out dirt and carbon dust that doesn't go through the bag.
Disagree the Pig has GREATER airflow than the Coach.Have both the Pig outdoes the Coach.And the Pig is going to be a more durable,longer lasting machine.Also the Pig has a greater dirt capacity.Its bag can hold 6Gal of debris! Backpack vacuums can clog more easily-the elbow at the top of the backpack canister can clog if long items are picked up-like straws or pens-the Pig can pick these up-they go into the Pigs "snout".
blackheart
Well-known member
gotta disagree
At the end of their respective hoses the proteam FS6 i've tested has about 150 cfm at the hose end (1.5") vs the 118 I got at the end of the pig's hose with the kirby bag mod. One could put a straight cuff on the end of the hose to avoid objects being caught in the elbow some units are sold with it. I do agree though that their capacity is far greater as the largest backpacks seem to be about 10 qt.
Getting back to the topic at hand. When it comes to deep cleaning performance, I think that, Direct airs generally have an advantage due to their, also generally, higher airflow. But it would be incorrect to assume that all direct airs out perform bypass machines.
There are some out there which could outclean some of the lesser performing direct airs. Machines like the bagged hoover windtunnels, simplicity 7 series/ riccar 8000 series, sharps, panasonics, and even some eurekas like the smart vac were pretty good performers.
I think there is still untapped potential for bypasss machines too. The Dirt devil ultra MVP is capable of producing nearly 130 cfm at the nozzle if this design were modernized it and given a few modifications it could truly stand against even the best direct airs.
At the end of their respective hoses the proteam FS6 i've tested has about 150 cfm at the hose end (1.5") vs the 118 I got at the end of the pig's hose with the kirby bag mod. One could put a straight cuff on the end of the hose to avoid objects being caught in the elbow some units are sold with it. I do agree though that their capacity is far greater as the largest backpacks seem to be about 10 qt.
Getting back to the topic at hand. When it comes to deep cleaning performance, I think that, Direct airs generally have an advantage due to their, also generally, higher airflow. But it would be incorrect to assume that all direct airs out perform bypass machines.
There are some out there which could outclean some of the lesser performing direct airs. Machines like the bagged hoover windtunnels, simplicity 7 series/ riccar 8000 series, sharps, panasonics, and even some eurekas like the smart vac were pretty good performers.
I think there is still untapped potential for bypasss machines too. The Dirt devil ultra MVP is capable of producing nearly 130 cfm at the nozzle if this design were modernized it and given a few modifications it could truly stand against even the best direct airs.
Sebo Felix
How about the Sebo
Felix? It's a clean air design but I think it cleans as well as any direct air machine. The direct air design has several disadvantages. If you vacuum up certain things, it will break the fan. They are also not good with attachments. Really the vacuum that has the most flexibility is a canister or central vacuum, with an electric power nozzle if you need to clean carpet.
Mike
How about the Sebo
Felix? It's a clean air design but I think it cleans as well as any direct air machine. The direct air design has several disadvantages. If you vacuum up certain things, it will break the fan. They are also not good with attachments. Really the vacuum that has the most flexibility is a canister or central vacuum, with an electric power nozzle if you need to clean carpet.
Mike
I am using my Pigs with their stock paper insert bags.These bags-for paper-are multilayer and filter well.Again measuring aside-the real proof is in use.When I use my ProTeams vs the Pig-for me the Pig wins every time.ProTeam does have an excellent direct air cordless upright-this is a full size vacuum and this will work BETTER on carpet than the backpacks.For me backpacks can be awkward to use.Drather have the weight of the vacuum machine on the FLOOR-not my back.And the Pig would be just to heavy and wrong shape to use as a backpack-plus its huge bag would be in the way on your back.The Pig is simply a HUGE canister machine!It can ingest stuff that would choke the best backpacks.Their bag capacity-6-10Qts at best-Pig--6 GALLONS!For me the Pig wins on most counts.
Also for the Pig--it can be used with up to 30Ft long wands that the backpack would run out of power to use.I have the high kit and still use it at home-just only need one long wand-they are expandleable and 1.5 in.You get two long wands and shorter ones-and a curcved one.All metal,too!The kit has some attachments ,too!Was worth getting.
panasonicvac
Well-known member
Before I'd go any further here, I just want to say that I'm not bashing the PIG or any other direct air machine. Actually I personally love the PIG, in fact I use them more than the Super Coaches. I could've been more fair to put in the RunningVac or any other ProTeam canister since the Super Coach is a back pack machine, that would've been a more fair comparison. But I didn't because unfortunately, ProTeam no longer makes any canisters which I think is a real shame because I prefer the canisters over the back pack machines. Even though I'm not much of a canister person but I definitely do like them more than back packs. Though they both share similar performances.
The PIG definitely does hold more than the Super Coach. However, I like maintaining the Super Coaches more because I find that they're easier and cleaner to do. Not to mention that they actually filter better. But the bottom line though is that having used both machines, the PIG doesn't pick up as well as the Super Coach.
Regarding the ProTeam FreeFlex. I still have yet to use one but I am hearing that they're already having problems. Makes me wonder though of why they haven't gotten rid of those instead of their canister vacuums since those have generally gotten favorable feedback. But I do like that the FreeFlex uses cloth disposable bags, though they do look small however. I'm not sure yet. I wouldn't be surprised if I find that the ProTeam bypass machines do a better job than the FreeFlex.
I definitely do agree with Devin, I don't believe that all direct air machines would clean better than any bypass machine. Take the classic Oreck XL uprights for example. One thing that I'm still trying to figure out is how in the heck did those get the gold rating from The Carpet and Rug Institute? Again not to bash on any direct air machine, especially Oreck cause I'll admit that I do like Orecks. I really do appreciate their lightweight and simple design but I do not find they clean excellent that CRI claims they really do. I could see on their higher end models like the XL21 but definitely not their entry level line. Anyways I brought that up because I know for sure that alot of other bypass machines if not all of them that were placed lower on the list would do a better job than those Orecks. Especially the SEBO Felix. Yes Mike the Felix can out clean some direct air machines, not all of them but some. But I also agree with Devin that some bypass machines cannot out clean all direct air machines.
The PIG definitely does hold more than the Super Coach. However, I like maintaining the Super Coaches more because I find that they're easier and cleaner to do. Not to mention that they actually filter better. But the bottom line though is that having used both machines, the PIG doesn't pick up as well as the Super Coach.
Regarding the ProTeam FreeFlex. I still have yet to use one but I am hearing that they're already having problems. Makes me wonder though of why they haven't gotten rid of those instead of their canister vacuums since those have generally gotten favorable feedback. But I do like that the FreeFlex uses cloth disposable bags, though they do look small however. I'm not sure yet. I wouldn't be surprised if I find that the ProTeam bypass machines do a better job than the FreeFlex.
I definitely do agree with Devin, I don't believe that all direct air machines would clean better than any bypass machine. Take the classic Oreck XL uprights for example. One thing that I'm still trying to figure out is how in the heck did those get the gold rating from The Carpet and Rug Institute? Again not to bash on any direct air machine, especially Oreck cause I'll admit that I do like Orecks. I really do appreciate their lightweight and simple design but I do not find they clean excellent that CRI claims they really do. I could see on their higher end models like the XL21 but definitely not their entry level line. Anyways I brought that up because I know for sure that alot of other bypass machines if not all of them that were placed lower on the list would do a better job than those Orecks. Especially the SEBO Felix. Yes Mike the Felix can out clean some direct air machines, not all of them but some. But I also agree with Devin that some bypass machines cannot out clean all direct air machines.
huskyvacs
Well-known member
Is this thread about commercial vacuums or household vacuums?
However the topic shifted off to the NSS Pig, regardless of how good it is, it has its place in the commercial environment. It does not fit in a house and is not usable in a house. Unless you're pre-cleaning people's homes for a shampooing service I wouldn't see it used at all anywhere near a neighborhood. I have one too, and trust me, it's more massive than it looks in a photo when you have all the kit with it. It would be so destructive trying to clean with that in an apartment or small house like my own (800 sqft)
This is a pic from online;
However the topic shifted off to the NSS Pig, regardless of how good it is, it has its place in the commercial environment. It does not fit in a house and is not usable in a house. Unless you're pre-cleaning people's homes for a shampooing service I wouldn't see it used at all anywhere near a neighborhood. I have one too, and trust me, it's more massive than it looks in a photo when you have all the kit with it. It would be so destructive trying to clean with that in an apartment or small house like my own (800 sqft)
This is a pic from online;
TheVCCC was given a PIG
It was later sold to a member. It was demonstrated at a convention years ago. Some were impressed by it.
It was later sold to a member. It was demonstrated at a convention years ago. Some were impressed by it.
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