Torn between Sebo D4 and Simplicity Moxie

[peaches]

Hello all,

This forum has been incredibly helpful for me over the past week as I have dived into the project of getting a new vacuum. I have done extensive research and have narrowed the search to the Sebo D4 and Simplicity Moxie. I have hardwoods, area rugs, medium pile and wall-to-wall with no dogs but very messy, young kids and individuals with asthma and allergies. I rejected Miele for various reasons and won't buy Kenmore again because I don't want another disposable vacuum. I did not consider the Aerus platinum since the price was significantly higher it seems. Here is what the major pro/cons for each machine are for me after spending about 30 minutes with each machine today:

Simplicity Moxie:
Pros
1. made in USA - moderately important to me
2. wider powerhead can clean large area faster
3. nice complement of tools, including nice corner-shaped dust tool and offers more tools than Sebo
4. has a cleaning tool that swivels to get in very tight spots when cleaning hardwoods
5. Hose maneuvers complete 360 degrees at insertion to canister AND handle with cages for protection at both ends
6. Metal hinges to doors
7. Powerhead has light (not very important to me)

Cons
1. Does not lie flat in a straight manner to clean under objects, but can lie flat at an angle. Powerhead seemed very slightly higher than Sebo's ET-1 so clearance not as great (but did not measure this, just seemed this way).
2. Serpentine belt inferior to geared belt? Unsure about this and whether it matters
3. Electronics on handlebar could wear out

Neutral for both
1. both are heavy machines but worth it to me because of the power and quality. Both seemed very solid.
2. Price equivalent (Sebo $899, Simplicity $999)
3. Warranty equivalent
4. local shop can service both types of vacuums
5. filters and bags equivalent
6. Both seem to clean well, filter well
7. Both have easily removable brushrolls and belts to powerhead
8. Both with 4 rubber-coated wheels, long cords (40 foot of Sebo is awesome but not necessary for my house), same hose length, parkable wand, sturdy hose, nice bumpers

SEBO D4
Pros
1. love how it lies flat to clean under furniture with low profile. This is very important to me.
2. machine basically self-propels itself somehow and maneuvered extremely well.
3. Filtration system is very interesting - unclear if it is better than Simplicity or not
4. Liked how height control was a knob and less breakable than lever

Cons
1. Hose does not move 360 degrees at attachment to canister so it seems to get hung up in an awkward way. I read about how a reviewer returned it for this reason.
2. Not made in America but Germany is an ally!
3. Pro/con ET-1 is not as wide so fits in smaller places but also takes longer to clean large areas.

If anyone has knowledge that may give me better insight to how important these issues are, I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts. I know that both machines are great and high quality and this may just be a draw. I also realize that I have laid out a complicated analysis which no one may want to delve into, as can be the case with many forum posts. But any advice would be great! Thanks again for the tremendous resource this forum has been for a vacuum neophyte like me!

Sincerely,

Peaches in NC

 

[ctvacman]

You can get the sebo with a wider head called et-2 a good dealer would have mentioned that

 

[vacerator]

peaches;

Is the Moxie a full size Simplicity? only the full size ones are made in the USA.

 

[peaches]

Yes full size Moxie made in USA.

I am aware of the ET-2 but he did not have it on the showroom to try out. Anybody know the width of the Simplicity PN head?

Thanks everyone.

 

[kirbysthebest]

I would say both are excellent vacuums and you would not go wrong with either. 


 


You might look at the cost of your consumables, Bags, filters etc.  I am not sure what they are for both machines, but this could help you in making your decision. 


 


If it comes to a coin toss, you would win either way, IMO.

 

[dysonman1]

Definitely consider the cost to own each machine. The Simplicity has replaceable brush strips, so in the future you don't need to buy the entire brush bar when the bristles wear down. The cost of bags and hepa filters is definitely worth comparing as well. Serpentine belts have no 'cogs' to break or wear out. Cogged belts are long lived, but not lifetime, belts.

 

[n0oxy]

sebo d series

Have not seen the Simplisity model you mention, but you might also look at the Simplisity Wonder, also known as the Riccar Prima, it's an excellent canister model and you can choose what power head to get. I have the Sebo D1 canister, that's the suction only model and it is excellent, I would expect the D4 to be just as good, Sebo makes great vacuums for sure.

 

[sebo4me]

The Sebo brushrolls are very reasonably priced. £20 here in the UK. The bags are huge and also cheap to but and you don't need to change the filter till 15 to 20 bags have been used.
It's a very solid machine very reliable and does a great job.

 

[kirbysthebest]

The Simplicity Wonder, and Riccar Prima are good machines, but keep in mind they are both "Made in China". 

 

[hooverkid]

I think that the simplicity would be the better machine only because with the types of carpet you said you had I know that the simplicity powerhead will clean your carpet better than a sebo. also as mentioned above there is nothing to brake as far as the simplicity belt goes but the sebo belt may need replaced in a few years if the jam sensor is activated along the road. I have owned and use both simplicity and sebo vacuums and have always liked Simplicity a little better.

 

[ctvacman]

The one reason I won't own another sebo canister ( might seem dumb to some) is the power nozzle switch is annoyingly stiff to press and just down right awkward. Even though the brush strips might be half the price of a sebo brush roll nothing compares to the convenience of removing a sebo brush, esp to clean threads off. The build quality of a sebo is just rock solid, on my riccar 1800 I used to have I always felt the swivel neck on the power nozzle was a little cheap, never broke just felt like the wrong move and it would snap. I have heard that the controls in the handle on the simplicity fail so that is something to be mindful of. Both are good but just wish sebo would put a simple switch on the handle to shut off the PN or a least make the one on the head easier to use, I can say that the et-1 does clean well as I used to have one setup on my central vac, with that setup the switch is not a issue since there is a three way switch on the handle. That's not pertinent to you but just letting you know the et-1 does clean well

 

[funeraldirector]

D4 and Moxie

Peaches,

Pretty easy scenario for me since I own both machines. You have selected two great units. The main difference you will really see between the two is power nozzle width and cord length. The Riccar/Simplicity machine has 28' and the Sebo 40' or 50' I don't remember right off hand. This can be significant in a large house as you will vacuum some fifty feet at a time without looking for another outlet. I like the Sebo ET-1 nozzle for its commercial build quality, performance and durability. The smaller width generally provides for better cleaning performance. In a larger nozzle size like the ET-2, I would choose the Lux Omniflo of the Platinum because I don't care for the ET-2 performance with lots of sand. In everyday use, I find the Sebo hose handle annoying in its controls and the diameter is conical in design meaning it gets wider the closer you get to the tank and is stiff like the Lux gimp (woven) hoses of the Silverado era. Color impregnated plastic, high quality/commercial design, and minimalist styling make it the Bang and Olufsen of vacuums. Buy this one if you plan to hammer it hard and are looking for a vacuum built like a dozer. Just plain nice all the way around.

The Simplicity Moxie/Riccar Impeccable has nicer tools and the small floor brush under the cover rocks around the flush in the bathroom. The power nozzle I think cleans a little better and definitely grooms cut pile better. The floor brush with washable pad is great for floors and telescopic wand is more durable than Sebo's. The electronic handle is nice and the hose more forgiving. Made in USA is an added bonus as well. Riccar/Simplicity makes a great petite power nozzle for this machine that is like the small Miele nozzle. This one is quieter and picks up more dirt-great under beds, furniture and has a lock unlike Miele's SEB 217 and also USA made. Supplies cost less along with wear parts costs. Great fit and finish, incredible power and more convenient than Sebo to use-Better component quality than a Miele Marin and a regular contributor here from the manufacturer took time to post a reply to your question as well. Win-Win!

The biggest difference between the two is the motor in the canister and nozzle. Both are larger but the suction motor delivers more power than Sebo, and along with the Lux Platinum, (they have very similar numbers) are the best performing on the market looking exclusively at the motor specs. Remember also that the Moxie/Impeccable are finished in Akzo Nobel paint vs. color impregnated plastic.

Either would be a fine choice. The Lux Platinum is equally Awesome and a little more nimble than the other two. I have one and LOVE it. Too bad they didn't have this machine in the 12 years I sold Lux in Boston.


Brian

 

[peaches]

Thanks!

Wow, thank you everyone for great input. I will have to mull this over but not too long as I currently have no machine and the dirt is piling up

Questions for Brian (funeraldirector):

Would you mind clarifying what you meant in this part:

"The biggest difference between the two is the motor in the canister and nozzle. Both are larger but the suction motor delivers more power than Sebo, and along with the Lux Platinum, (they have very similar numbers) are the best performing on the market looking exclusively at the motor specs."

-when you said "both are larger", which/what did you mean?

Also, when you said:
"Riccar/Simplicity makes a great petite power nozzle for this machine that is like the small Miele nozzle."

-can you give me the name or number of this specific nozzle? This may be a big help for getting under things and between things with the Simplicity. It seems that the profile, however, is limited by the rather large plastic lever at the end of the wand used to release the wand from the nozzle - it is almost 4 inches wide (4 inches high when lying flat) while the actual PN is close to 3 inches high.

Again, great forum. It is really nice to feel like a moderately educated consumer trying to make the best decision for my given situation.

 

[vacguy77]

Moxie or Sebo D4

Peaches,

As a dealer for both brands, to me it would be a clear choice, the Sebo D4. The two biggest things for me are "quality of workmanship" and "fit and finish". If you are looking for a vacuum that will last and last for years to come without trouble, the Sebo D4 is going to be your answer. The quality of manufacture of the parts with the Sebo is going to be much higher. It will be evident when handling the vacuum. I think you will also appreciate the feel of using the Sebo over the Simplicity. Simplicity bags are less expensive than Simplicity bags, and if you were to ever need parts, Sebo parts are also very reasonable. If you have any further questions, or would like to ask any questions, you may call me at my shop. We also sell both machines.

Derreck Fricke
Franklin County Vacuum
(636) 239-3795

 

[vacguy77]

CORRECTION

Peaches,

Mistake.. Sebo bags are actually less expensive than Simplicity bags.

Sebo bags are 8 per package for $21.99

Simplicity bags are 6 per package for $21.99


Derreck

 

[sebo_fan]

The actual SEBO brush rolls are washable; a factor that not all vacuums with PNs employ and the brush roll has already seen service in the X uprights, Windsor Sensor vacuums in the U.S and also the Felix upright vacs.

 

[kirbylux77]

Peaches

If I was in your position, I would choose the Simplicity Moxie over the Sebo D4.

Let me address one issue first that Dysonman1 addressed above, Cog belts vs Serpentine "v belt" belts. He is wrong on this issue. Back 20 years ago, Tom would be right....a Aerus Electrolux cog belt on their powerheads & Kenmore Powermate cog belts on their Powermate canister powerheads would last about 10 years under normal usage in a home. That's assuming the average household is gonna pick up a sock or small piece of clothing or towel once in a while, trip the breaker & reset & go back to their vacuuming routine. Today's powerheads that use cog belts, however, is a different story. On the Dust Care PB11 powerhead (generic Eureka Express / Sweep & Groom central vac knockoff), Wessell Werk powerheads & Lindhaus powerheads, those cog belts will EASILY last the lifetime of the powerhead. If you really think Tom is correct, think of this....SEBO offers a lifetime warranty on the cog belt in their uprights....why would they offer that warranty if they KNEW it was going to break & cost them for the part & pay the dealer's labor to install a new one? Because they know it isn't going to break! The on-board computer & circuit breaker see to that, & also the construction of cog belts has improved greatly in 20 years. The only real "advantage" a Serpentine "V Belt" system offers is it's slightly less noisy....reality is, with normal care, both are excellent choices & are better than a flat belt. Keep in mind one little thing about Tom Gasko / Dysonman1....he works for Tacony Corporation, & he runs the Vacuum Museum for them. He is obviously going to recommend you to buy a Simplicity, as it's in his best interests to do so, which means he is going to say what he feels promotes his product & makes it better (in his mind) over your other choices. Does that mean you shouldn't trust his opinion? No. Just take it with a grain of salt & consider what motivations ANY of us may have in making one recommendation over another. Same with Brian, Funeraldirector - he is a former Aerus salesman, so we know why he would recommend the Guarian Platinum to you.

As for the cost of bags, filters & cost of ownership, the Simplicity is ultimately going to cost you less than the SEBO. The SEBO D4 presently has no aftermarket bags or filters available for it, whereas the Simplicity's Type H bags & HEPA exhaust filters are available in either genuine or EnviroCare generic versions. However, bear in mind one thing....The Simplicity has the Red Carpet Service Plan, which states genuine parts must be used or the warranty is void. Since that warranty is 5 years, keep in mind the first 5 years you won't be able to use generic supplies. Ask your Simplicity dealer - he may not care if you use the EnviroCare bags & HEPA filters if you are buying them from him in the first place. FYI: EnviroCare is the company that manufactures all of Tacony Corporation's bags & filters....put a genuine Simplicity Type H bag beside a EnviroCare Type H bag & there is literally no difference in quality. Same with the HEPA Filter.

You mentioned that the SEBO powerhead has a plastic height adjustment knob & felt it would be less breakable than a lever. You would be wrong with that assumption. The Simplicity powerhead's height adjustment lever is METAL, as is the handle release lever. The SEBO's handle release lever is plastic. So Simplicity wins on that point.

As for whether SEBO or Simplicity filters better? Simplicity hands down! No contest there. One thing I am NOT a fan of on the SEBO D4 is how the bag attaches to the bag holder in the bag compartment - it's just 2 notches on the body that mates with 2 hooks on the bag collar. Rather flimsy if you ask me. You might also be interested to know that one major vac shop in Southern Ontario, that sells on the Internet to all of Canada, McHardy Vacuum, ranks the Riccar/Simplicity canisters higher for filtration than SEBO. In fact, they say the SEBO is so far down versus the Simplicity/Riccar canisters they consider only the Kenmore/Panasonic canisters worse for filtration! That's saying a LOT, in my mind. Also, bear this in mind....If SEBO is REALLY so convinced their "S Class" filtration that is the equivalent of HEPA filtration is SO good, then why do they offer both S Class service kits as well as a HEPA Filter service kit for the SEBO Airbelt C3.1 canister? This was the predecessor to the D4, btw. They do the same thing for the uprights, except the Felix, there are both S Class & HEPA Filter service kits available. To my mind, that's showing they have their doubts about their filtration system, if they were REALLY that confident there would be no need to have a optional kit. Therefore, with asthma & allergy sufferers in your household, the Simplicity Moxie is obviously the superior choice.

Now, be warned, the Simplicity Moxie does have some durability issues. As Ctvacman pointed out above, the Simplicity Moxie & Simplicity Gusto have issues with the handle controls on the hose. Back in 1994, when the Electrolux Renaissance was introduced, it used the same type of membrane vinyl push-button controls on the hose handle, & it DID cause them major problems & a lot of grief, which is why when the Electrolux Guardian was introduced they changed to toggles on the hose handle. Also note that if the hose on the Simplicity does break down, the entire hose must be replaced - the hose handle itself is not available as a separate part. You will need to be careful with the hose while vacuuming. The powerhead on the Simplicity is also another sore spot. Tom is correct that the brushroll brush strips can be replaced on the metal brushroll, BUT what he failed to mention is that those metal brushrolls have bearing & endcap issues & often require replacement after a few years of ownership. It also has a tendency to take out the powerhead base, belt & belt guard cover as well, the friction buildup inside will cause the plastic to warp & melt around the belt guards built into the powerhead base, as well as the belt guard cover above it. Let me make this clear - if you buy a Riccar or Simplicity canister, YOU MUST BE VIGILANT TO TAKE THE POWERHEAD COVER OFF ON A REGULAR BASIS & CUT AWAY ANY STRINGS OR HAIR FROM THE BRUSHROLL & GIVE IT A GOOD GENERAL CLEANING!!! Preferably at least once a month, if you expect your powerhead to last a long time. With regards to the vacuum's filtration, you will have to be careful & pay close attention to the Simplicity Type H bags, both when installing & checking them for dirt buildup. One problem area Simplicity has is, when not carefully inserted & installed, there is a weak spot in the middle of the cardboard bag collar which can cause the collar to "collapse" & "crunch in" a little bit when care isn't taken installing the bag & closing the bag compartment door. This causes the bag collar to not make a optimal seal with the bag intake tube mounted on the bag compartment door, which means some dust will bypass the bag. Since the bag is the first stage of filtration in any bagged canister vacuum, it would be a good idea to keep a eye on it.

One other thing I am going to bring up, since Kirbysthebest pointed this out, & this is important, is this: The Simplicity Moxie uses Chinese components. Your dealer may not have pointed this out, but the Simplicity Moxie, Simplicity Gusto, Riccar Immaculate & Riccar Impeccable were originally designed by Daewoo Corporation & manufactured for Tacony Corporation in Korea. You are, in essence, buying Korean design & technology, if you buy the Simplicity Moxie. Tacony Corporation, to their credit, did bring the manufacturing of these canisters to St. James, Missouri, a couple of years ago, BUT while the body is formed & painted in America & final assembly takes place in America, all the components in the canister are produced for them by KingClean in China, which is the company that manufactures the rest of their canister vacuums for Tacony. Some people wouldn't be bothered by this, yet some would prefer European technology, manufacturing & design. Only you can make that choice if it is right for you & your home.

Since you say allergies & asthma are issues with people in your household, I would strongly suggest you also look at the Simplicity Wonder & Riccar Prima. If it were me, I would prefer these machines to the Simplicity Moxie you are looking at. The reason is this....remember how I pointed out to keep an eye on the bag collar? Well, if you talk to any vac shop that sells both Miele & Riccar or Simplicity, you will find in most cases they prefer to sell Riccar/Simplicity for uprights & Miele for canisters. Why? 1. The issues with the powerhead, which I pointed out, which for you are irrelevant because you're going to take care of your vacuum . 2. They also feel the overall quality of the Riccar/Simplicity canisters is lower than Miele - What that really boils down to is a preference to Made in Germany vs. Made in China, it's up to you to believe their bias, or not. 3. Because of the bag collar crunching issue on the Riccar/Simplicity canisters, most vac shops feel that Miele has a better filtration system & does a better job of filtering the air. However, what is nice about the Simplicity Wonder & Riccar Prima is they are new designs, & filtration is one issue that has been resolved. The bag collars on the Wonder & Prima are made of PLASTIC, not cardboard, so it cannot crunch in & it will make constant contact with the bag intake tube on the bag door. The new bag design also has a better bag closure system when you go to dispose of the bag from the vacuum. Forget about the fact the Wonder & Prima are manufactured in China - remember, if you choose the Moxie, you are still buying Chinese components anyways. One nice thing about Tacony Corporation is they had some problems with manufacturing defects in their previous lineup of canisters KingClean made for them, but they have since learned from those mistakes with the Wonder & Prima designs, & one thing they do which REALLY gives me confidence in them is they open up EVERY SINGLE VACUUM imported from China & inspect it before they allow it to be sold to the distributor who in turn sells it to your dealer. Tacony is NOT going to let a inferior product leave their facility. You might also appreciate that, besides the improvement to the bag collar, they have also improved the wand design on the Wonder & Prima & instead of using 4 castors they use 2 skateboard-style wheels in back & 2 castors in front for improved maneuverability. Also, the canister itself has all the same features, just the controls aren't on the hose handle, & a more compact, easy to handle size.

If you are willing to consider it, btw, I would also suggest you re-consider looking at the Miele C3 canisters, since you say there are allergy & asthma sufferers in your home. Let me make one thing clear - The ONLY other vacuum out on the market today that will filter better than a Miele C3 canister is the Aerus Guardian Platinum. PERIOD! The Riccar/Simplicity canisters would be 3rd place & SEBO 4th place for filtration efficiency. Also note, if the price is an issue for the Aerus Guardian Platinum but you would consider buying if you can find a lower price, I do know a dealer in Brampton, Ontario that sells the Guardian Platinum for $1,500 Canadian dollars - just under $1,100 US dollars. And bear this in mind - the Aerus Guardian Platinum has a 15 year motor warranty, which covers the ENTIRE CANISTER...the motor, circuit boards, cord winder, etc. So to me, it's worth it to get 3x the warranty coverage of SEBO & Riccar/Simplicity. If you want the dealer's contact name & number, send me a email at the email address in my profile.

Rob

 

[funeraldirector]

Simplicity and Sebo

Peaches,

Sorry for the late response out on a rescue call with an MVA and LifeFlight tonight. Simplicity and Riccar are the same vacuum and the parent is Tacony. This vacuum was originally made in Korea by Daewoo until production was moved to Missouri some years back.

The suction motor in the Simplicity/Riccar is an all around larger, heavier motor more along the lines of what Lux used to use. Like the Platinum which is rated at 505 air watts and 116" of water life, the last one of the Tacony units (Simplicity S36L same as Moxie) which I tested had about the same water lift specs as the Lux. Most of the Miele and Sebo run about 95 or so on the lift gauge. They all clean really good I am just pointing out a few things not stated in other posts. The heavier motor adds weight and cost so most manufacturers are using single fans like those in Lux and Miele. I notice the difference between the Sebo and Lux & Riccar as far as power at the hose end but I was in this business for a long time. The power nozzle motors in the ET-1 are 1.6 amp compared to the Simplicity/Riccar which are 1.8 with Lux at 1.2 amp. The more airflow and agitation the cleaner the carpet. The older mid size Riccar and Simplicity vacuums offer similar performance to the Sebo and Miele units. Both units retain their power better than Lux. I prefer the bag system on the Sebo and the white D4 Premium with ET-1 is what I bought.

As far as the smaller nozzle for the Simplicity/Riccar it is part number RPB 40.4 (Riccar) and is plain black so dealer should have the same with Simplicity top cover/be able to order . You can see it in the attachments on the Riccar web site as well. Really nice for carpeted stairs, sofa, chair etc. Pictured below it runs about $250.00 or so.

Dysonman1 is the perfect one to chime in on this discussion since he works in the factory where the Simplicity is made and is better with component specs than I am. I think the Sebo might stand abuse a little better long-term, but for a guy who is fussy like me, the US-Made Simplicity/Riccar full size is a nice machine that does everything well and protects American jobs.

Brian

 

[oliveoiltinfoil]

D4 is a beautiful machines. The other one I am not familiar with but it looks very nice.

Reference where they are made, that is quite important to me. I have said before, I would buy a British, German, American or Japanese made product over a Chinese made one every time. Wanting to support a local economy is a patriotic and good thing to do and if more people had this attitude, we wouldn't be in the financial mess we are in now. Building things we buy every day is the right thing to do, not importing it from the other side of the world.