The Great HEPA Debate

[vacuumlad1650]

Well, Hello Folks. Hope You all had a nice Holiday.
I've been wondering if a Hepa bag or filter is really worth the extra cost.
For example
-A pack of 12 Generic vacuum Bags for an Electrolux will run you $10. A Pack of generic allergy releif bags $20, and Perfect HEPA bags are $25
-Hoover Type A 3 pack, generic, $3. Genuine is $5, and Genuine HEPA is $9
As you can see the price jumps are HUGE!
Now, I'm not an allergy sufferer. Nobody in my family is. Dad and I farm, so we are used to dusty conditions. We always believed that breathing dust all your life is good for you. Your immune system strengthens from it.
An Allergy sufferer, should use HEPA bags and Filters. Im not going after you for using them. We live in a society that thinks HEPA filters mean 100% clean air. That isnt what you need! How will you grow immune to dirt and germs if you never breath them?
This thought only came up the other day. I was cleaning the house with my old Electrolux Silverado Deluxe. I dont use HEPA bags, i dont even use Aerus bags. I use my older NOS Electrolux bags or my Generic Air-Flo bags I buy when Im in town. Mother complain's that my vacuums smell "like an Old Woman's House". I told her that shows these machines are built long enough to last. She said "They arn't HEPA. Your Kenmore has HEPA, but i dont want you using that old upright. It will Scratch my wood floors (insert my eyes rolling here). Then she says go get the Kenmore Canister. mine, not yours." I said why? She said "Because its got a HEPA filter" I said Ma, that filter is 15 years old. The vacuum leaks air out around it. There isnt a vacuum in this house that has HEPA that you would let me use.
We went back and forth over this while i continued vacuuming. When i finished vacuuming, I pointed out she didnt notice any smell. She had grown used to it.
Well, now I want your thoughts. I think Generic bags or NOS genuine bags are the better bags with ANY brand. Now i would like your thoughts. i will never use a HEPA bag. Too much pull on the motor.
Your thoughts are always Welcome!
Thanks! Happy New Year!
Andy Rousonelos

 

[dysonman1]

Even if you don't have allergies, HEPA bags are a must. Have you ever worked on the motor (torn it down completely) in one of your old Lux's? The fans are packed in dirt. Why? Paper bags. Paper bags leak dust. That dust goes into the fans, and then into the exhaust. I vacuum my house to remove dust. The vacuum should NOT have ANY dust in the exhaust, or I'm wasting my time dusting the furniture with it. To that extent, I have a Vac U Flo central vac - absolutely no recirculated dust. My Elux Platinum, Tri-Star MG2, Rainbow 75th Anniversary Edition, and Air-Way Signature Series all have HEPA filtration - and leak no dust. It's not about allergies, it's about not having to redust my television screen tomorrow. That's why HEPA makes sense to me.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Well, Tom, Thats a good point. I like a clean home as much as the next guy, but i see no reason to strain my vacuum for better filtration. Its more of a To each his own moment here
Andy

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Oh, i forgot to mention. we have a BEAM Central Vac. i hate it!
I have gone into my vacuum motors before. all are clean as a whistle
Andy

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Forgot to mention...again. Jeez, my memory is going. i have a Vac-U-Flo at one of my other houses

 

[gottahaveahoove]

I have HEPA bags in my

Platinum cleaners.  All of the others have regular, "genuine" Hoover bags.  That filter paper works fine.  I stood in the factory and saw the rolls of filter paper.  I'm glad to say that I've never had dust issues here at this old place.

 

[human]

Generic bag user here.

The only dust issues I have come from a lack of dusting because I'm a total slacker when it comes to cleaning house. I use "Multi-Filter" 4-ply generic bags in my 'Luxes and Envirocare bags in my Kirbys and have no complaints about their performance. And at less than a dollar each, I have no complaints about their price either.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Well, John, im sure you would be proud to know i use GENUINE Hoover bags in my PowerDrive and PortaPower...
Edgar, i use Envirocare bags in most of my vacuums. kenmore's and hoovers i use my NOS genuine bags
Andy

 

[gottahaveahoove]

I am proud of you, indeed.

I learned that the paper used at that factory came from the Poconos................ my neck of the woods.


 


 A carpenter will be doing some work this week in the "gallery".  Talk about DUST! But,  I'm more than ready for it.


 

 

[kirbyduh]

Bags

I will ONLY use HEPA bags in my Electrolux vacuums. In a pinch I will use the older genuine, gray Electrolux bags. Unless you're using something like an LX, model E/AE, or later plastic bodied machines that also have an after filter, the bag is the only source of filtration in the Electrolux. Anything that escapes the bag will be blown right back into the house. HEPA bags provide the highest attainable filtration for said machines. That being said, I hardly use these machines in the main part of our house, as I prefer machines with better filtration like my Tristar EXL or Rainbow E2.

 

[ge1969]

Hi Folks. I don't think Hepa is all that great unless you're a bad allergy sufferer or a major finatic about dust. I will however, say that I will only use 4 ply bags with a rubber seal in an Electrolux. Anything cheaper will cause motor damage. Happy Holidays, Toby G.

 

[electrolux137]

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Personally, I think the whole "hepa thing" is largely a matter of sales hype -- just like vacuum cleaner sales hype of the past -- moth infestations that must be dispatched with highly poisonous and carcinogenic chemicals; bedding loaded down with dead skin cells; vacuum cleaners that pick up a bowling ball, etc. etc. etc.

Unless a person is allergic to stuff in the air such as pollen, hepa bags don't really seem to me to be necessary; and, due to the more-restricted air flow, hepa bags and filters can cause the motor to overheat if used for long periods of time.

The greater advantage of paper vs. cloth bags is a matter of convenience -- which doesn't take into consideration bagless machines. If you've ever emptied one of them at night with a flashlight beamed across the dirt chamber, you probably couldn't get away from that machine fast enough.

I have -- and have had -- quite a few Electroluxes over the years. The only ones that were "caked with dirt" inside were ones that had been misused or abused. (One day I found a Model E at a thrift shop that had just the cardboard top in the bag chamber to keep the cover closed ... and had been used that way for a very long time. Imagine the horror.)

I've said this before: For decades, people used vacuum cleaners with cloth bags. I don't recall any reports of homemakers falling ill left and right as the result of using those terrible old "dust belchers and dirt breeders."

"Salesmen gotta sell" -- there will always be sales hype regardless of the product and regardless of the veracity of the hype.
[this post was last edited: 12/29/2015-15:25]

 

[vinvac]

Charles,

I couldn't agree more. The bag less sickness that has hit the vacuum world is just a visual easy sell and those vacuums do not clean any better than a vacuum with a bag. And like you said....try to empty one and keep the dirt contained...it won't happen. Not to mention the cost of the filters verses the cost of a good package of bags…and a machine that won’t last more than 5 years….

We used a model 508 Kirby at home for years and years and no one ever died from using it. (I still use the machine)

I do however like the new Hepa Bags and use them in almost all of my daily drivers. For me the jury is still out on older vacuums over heating using the new hepa style bags. I use the perfect bags in all of my Electrolux machines and I feel the air flow is far better and maintains even with the bag being full. I use the hepa bags in all of my newer Kirby's that use a paper bag and find they also seem to maintain a stronger air flow....although even the cloth bag Kirby's don't loose much as the bag fills.

The new Aerus Platinum has the right idea, putting a Hepa Filter after the bag...now that makes good sense in my book. Then having a filter after the motor to catch the carbon dust....very similar to the early Air-Way...filter at the bottom and a filter that covered the motor to contain the carbon dust.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Something I love is the "Good Filtration" Hype, yet when you empty a bagless vacuum, all the dust comes back in the air. I like my Electrolux paper bags the most. 4 layer generic, or 4 layer NOS bags

 

[delaneymeegan]

 


<span style="text-decoration: underline;">A couple of things:</span>


 


A. A vacuum cleaner works best when the fill tube seals firmly around the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">rubber collar</span> of the bag which most vac bags have. 


 


On Electrolux, theirs have, as long as I've been using Electrolux (20+ years), always come with an annoying tab across the opening of the bag, which they never tell people, NEEDS to be removed so the fill tube will seal around the collar.  Obviously, if you put the bag in the machine and shut the door, the tube breaks the cardboard on one side, but  the other side then gets in the way and allows massive amounts of dust to leak out of the bag.


 


When ever I buy an Electrolux, they nearly ALWAYS have a bag in them AND the tab is sticking into the opening of the bag, which means it's leaked dust into the machine. 


It's common sense,  REMOVE THE TAB.


 


I notice it in your very first picture.  You have all your canisters standing on end, open and with a bag installed, and the TAB.... is still attached to every one of them.  


 


Why Electrolux does this.....?   No other brand that I know of does it.  It's almost like a trick to see if they can catch people and ruin their machines (so they can sell more). 


 


Look at all these different bags in the photos.  Kenmore, Kirby, Hoover, Eureka.... none have the tab.


 


 


 


B.   The use of the bagless:  Yes, You NEVER want to empty the dirt cup in the house.  The dust, some of which is lighter than air, will go EVERYWHERE.  Then it's like, what was the point of vacuuming.


 


I always carefully take the dirt cup outside, away from the house, figure what direction the wind is blowing, plan to be UP WIND, then dump the dirt on the grass or in the field allowing all the dust to blow AWAY from you.   Then with the cup upside down tap it and get all the dust out, again having it blow AWAY from you. 


 


 


C. You don't necessarily have to use Hepa bags to get quality results, as others have said.  However, use a bag with a collar that has a rubber seal and that it fits correctly with the hose.  Several of the vacs I recently attained, I open the bag compartment WITH THE HOSE ATTACHED and you can see that the hose is not mating up with the bag correctly.  I'm referring to a Hoover spirit here. 


 


Genuine Hoover Spirit bags have a rigid plastic collar.  Off Market bags will tend to have a cardboard collar that will bend when the hose is installed.  What's going to happen if the bag doesn't mate up with the fill tube or hose when the machine is running? It's going to leak dust inside the machine.   I've seen it countless times now. 

 

[electrolux137]

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There is a reason for the (patented) tab on Electrolux bags. When you remove the bag from the machine, the tab closes off the little opening to keep dirt from getting out. This was particularly important with a (correctly functioning) LX or LXI. When the machine shut off and ejected the bag, the bag would sail -- at great speed -- across the room for 5-6 ft. When the bag landed on the floor, if the membrane wasn't sealed, dirt would "poof" out of the opening.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From LX advertisements:

"TOUCH NO DIRT! BREATHE NO DIRT! SEE NO DIRT!"

"Out pops the dirt! Wrapped, sealed and sanitary!"

"The self-sealed bag containing the dirt is so dust-free you could toss it onto a white tablecloth!"

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


When you put the bag in the machine and close the lid, the tab is pushed inside the rubber membrane, not across it. There's a soft rubber ring inside the front cover that presses against the top of the bag to make an airtight seal.

If the tab somehow happens to [very rarely] get "stuck" outside the membrane, you will hear hissing as the air leaks -- even more so when you put your hand over the open end of the handle. When it's correctly seated inside the membrane, there is a good tight seal and no dirt escapes out of the bag.[this post was last edited: 12/30/2015-01:17]

 

[electrolux137]

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[tolivac]

The Filtrete spun woven bags are the best thing yet-and can acheive so called HEPA ratings.I use these bags whenever I can-keeps the fine dust out of your machines motor!!It will last much longer.2 of my central vacuums use the Filtrete cloth bags-the makers state that outside venting may not be required when these bags are used.Yes,those bags are expensive-but they hold more debris than equivelant capacity paper bags.So you can save-fewer bag changes-and less wear and tear on the vacuums motor.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Delany
Charles is exactly right. The 'tab' keeps the opening closed when the bag is ejected. Think about it
A vacuum bag holding more dirt without as much suction loss isnt always a good whing. The air has to be forced around the dist in the bag to get to the suction chamber's point of suction. This creates more 'drag' on the air, and a stronger pull on the motor
Andy Rousonelos
[email protected]

 

[delaneymeegan]

Good point and description Charles.
While Electrolux hasn't made those obnoxioius self ejecting machines in like....60 years or so, there are still those who use them.

I love your description:
"....important with a (correctly functioning) LX or LXI. When the machine shut off and ejected the bag, the bag would sail -- at great speed -- across the room for 5-6 ft. When the bag landed on the floor, if the membrane wasn't sealed, dirt would "poof" out of the opening. "

LOL. On the one hand, this IS basically what happens. On the other hand, it sounds like a scene from a Doris Day movie. LOL.

It's kind of a conundrum. If one is in fact using an LX or LXI, you would definitely want to keep the tab BUT much like when using any other Electrolux WITH THE TAB in place, you will have dust leakage.

I can understand a possible reason for the tab on the canister bags. However, the upright bags were never self ejecting that I know of. I started using the upright Electrolux in 1997 and always had good results. I always removed the tab and never had any problems with dust seepage.  


 


I owned several uprights, and like the canisters, would frequently find them with the bag and WITH the tab in place. [shaking head].   ...and the usual amount of dust in the bag chamber.
 



 
Oddly, I did happen upon a canister bag with a tab. Don't know what the purpose of it is. They only made the vacuum for a few years. I don't know if it is supposed to be removed. Dirt Devil Can Vac bags. Haven't bought any YET.  These bags were certainly never meant to be ejected mechanically.


 


The bag door on a can vac has a thick rubber collar that presses against the front of the bag, thus sealing it, so I don't know if these bags will have a rubber seal.  As a result of that rubber seal, the cardboard tab won't make a difference in how the machine seals.


 


I think it's fair to say that the Electrolux LX and LXI were flawed designs.  Fun though. 


 


 

 

[electrolux137]

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Well, even lacking the ejection feature, the point in the tab is still to seal the hole in the rubber membrane so dirt doesn't leak out when you change the bag.

It does work -- you can drop a full bag on the floor and no dirt will escape. It's one of the "many exclusive features that only your Electrolux® Cleaner can offer!"

If you remove the tab, you defeat the reason for it being there.

 

[delaneymeegan]

LOL


 


"It's one of the "many exclusive features that only your Electrolux® Cleaner can offer!" " 

 


 


~~


 


yeah, but a square of duct tape or packaging tape over the opening of ANY bag opening will definitely seal it from spillage.   A cardboard tab however does not have the benefit of adhesion. 


Once it's sealed you can drop it as many times as your clumsy self feels necessary.  Even turn it into a small pillow for your pet.


 


It's interesting, one of my recent vac purchases, they sent me like 3 big boxes worth of Electrolux bags.  I won't ever have to buy these bags AGAIN, unless I develop a baby powder addiction and decide to use my vacs every day.   When the world comes to an end as it's scheduled to in -2012-, no 2014, no I think they've rescheduled 'the end of the world' for 2016 PST, date TBD,...... at least I can use by Electrolux..... if I can find electricity. 


 


Anyway, they sent some bags I don't need, nor know what model they are for.  Style RR, apparently for an upright, and look what is part of the bag.   I've never seen this before.  A pre-applied square of tape with removable wax paper backing.  Because apparently, the average American can not coordinate a roll of tape AND a vacuum cleaner bag at the same time.  It's just too much of a burden, for sure. 

 

[blknblu]

Eureka's web site indicates the RR bag is for Eureka 4800 series upright vacuums.

 

[electrolux137]

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There is no need for adhesiveness in the cardboard tab.

The sealing quality comes from the small opening in the rubber membrane in the top of the bag squeezing tightly around the cardboard tab when the front cover is opened and the steel "snout" is thus withdrawn from inside the membrane of the bag. It does work. There would be no point in fumbling with a roll of tape or whatever as long as the tab is kept intact (and not pulled off).

Air-Way used to provide little adhesive stickers to close off the hole in their bags -- similar to the Eureka bags you showed above. It worked but was more complicated than Electrolux's patented self-sealing bags.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

The point of the cardboard tab is too keep the bag closed. ALL my bags have them for One reason. so they DONT leak dust. I have no dust in my bag chambers. I never will. The tab wont allow leakage, a bad bag, or bad door seal will. if the seal around the part that sticks INTO the hose is bad or gone, it will leak
Andy Rousonelos

 

[kirbysthebest]

HEPA too much pull on motor

I actually find the cloth type HEPA bags are easier breathing than the paper bags.  

 

[vacuumlad1650]

Just a few new thoughts
HEPA Bags
-I really cant see it on a bypass machine. id rather use my paper bags in front of the motor, and put a filter behind the motor (not always the case)
-I CAN see using HEPA bags (if you wish to do so) on a Direct Air machine. There wont be a pull on the motor, as well as good exhaust filtration combined with an easey breathe bag. I dont plan to do this. Just a thought
HEPA Filters
-This IS one thing i can see, in some cases. In the case of my Kenmore Progressive 300 Upright, its practical, as it is a fairly sealed machine as well as the filter has a gasket on it to lower air leakage (currently has a better seal as my Filter Cover Door is missing. I use a Bungee cord which holds the fliter tight on the machine)
-Electrolux Canisters (Plastic Body) This is useful as the exhaust is forced through the filter. Weather they make a HEPA for that, I dont know. i choose not to use them if they exist. Im not paying extra for HEPA in that case. My 4 ply bags catch more than the Blue Aerus Home Solutions bags
-My Kenmore Canisters, are not practical to use a HEPA filter. They have NO seal whatsoever. It would be a waste
Just My Two Cents
*the last picture of the HEPA cover is off FLEABAY* The filter cover was missing when i received the vacuum
Andy Rousonelos
Also, yes, that is a drier sheet on the Lux filter. They smell so good! I use them ALL the time!

 

[vacuumlad1650]

I went to Sears yesterday for (generic) Kenmore Upright Bags. I found them, and a girl who worked there kept pushing the HEPA bags. I kept saying no. She wouldnt stop with the 'awful dirt and germs in the air' rampage. i finally said, look Sweetie, im not trying to be rude, but I Collect and Repair vacuums. All The Time. HEPA is a Joke and I know what I'm doing. She walked away, steaming, grumbling about how 'everyone is an expert'
Andy Rousonelos

 

[tolivac]

Clean air machines can benefit from the HEPA bags and HEPA filters before the motor-even if the motor is full bypass-the fine stuff is kept out of the motors suction fans-the fine stuff can cause the motor to run out-of balance.Noise,and bearing, motor failure can happen.Remember the motor is the HEART of your vacuum!!We don't want any vacuum cleaner "heart" attacks!