The Great HEPA Debate

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Can't say I agree, Vacuumlad,

HEPA bags and sealed HEPA vacuum cleaners are a huge step forward. Aside from maintaining suction much longer, HEPA bags have several other benefits, such as keeping bag chambers, motors, and the cleaners other filters spotless, and slowing the occurrence of odors. I love how on lots of newer machines (or upgraded older machines), there's peace-of-mind that ALL the dust is staying inside the vacuum. Even if you're not concerned about the improvements in filtration technology in terms of bacteria and air quality, good filtration will protect the vacuum, and help it run longer. Good HEPA bags help the vacuum's suction and airflow, not hurt it.

Also, keep in mind that true HEPA filtration isn't always achieved, despite what companies say. Your Kenmore, for instance, is not a true HEPA machine, as that exhaust filter doesn't have a good-enough seal to really declare it so. However, if you used the excellent Kenmore HEPA bags (which you can practically steal on ebay), your machine's filtration would improve greatly. Make sure the filters are clean though! I've repaired dozens of that model Kenmore, and they were originally made before HEPA bags were a thing. The bag chambers were always filthy, and a bear to clean thanks to their grid-pattern in the plastic. I have a new Kenmore Intuition that's currently getting a workout at a friend's house, and the inside of the bag compartment is immaculate, despite the heavy use, thanks to the improved bag.

When I first got my Numatic Henry, I went through a bunch of regular generic 2-layer paper bags. They were ok, and thankfully Henrys have great pre-motor filters. However, once I upgraded to the HEPA-flo synthetic bags, the difference was immediately noticeable. The HEPA-flo bags could handle MUCH more fine dust, and still maintained strong suction. They don't leak, and you can fill them with pounds of heavy, soot-like dirt before they need to be changed.

I use good HEPA bags in all my vintage machines that have an option, and primarily use vacuums that have sealed HEPA filtration in daily use in my home.

One side note: You may not be concerned about vacuum dust or filtration, but I would NEVER use dryer sheets over the exhaust of any vacuum, as an air freshener. They smell nice, but then you're essentially spewing poison throughout the room when you vacuum. Dryer sheets are made with toxic chemicals, and not meant to be sprayed around a room, and breathed in for prolonged periods of time. You'll get your family sick!
 
Honestly, the Perfect Hepa bags made night and day difference in my Silverado. I have always used the factory paper bags, but about the third or fourth time I would use the machine I would notice the drop in air flow sound, and the smell of old dust, tried the bags, both are gone! Bags last so much longer it never drops the airflow! And the bag chamber stays so clean! It looked good before, until I put a white pre motor filter in there. One genuine Lux paper 4 ply and that filter was almost black. NO THANKS
 
Well, for me, I really dont need HEPA. After I get a vacuum, no matter how clean it it, i SCRUB it thouroughly. All my Lux's use paper aftermarket bags (currently) and their bag chambers are SPOTLESS (minus the Diplomat...LONG story)
My Kenmore's...the bag chambers were Dirty, but they all had full, ripped bags
My Hoovers came to me Like New!
 
Well, I did on my Lux LX, and L. Nathan Thomas (Electrolux Dude, he calls himself My Friendly Electrolux Salesman, referencing the Model E) Serviced all my other Electrolux's within the past six months, and he cleaned them
I re-built the motor in my Kenmore Upright, hoping it would get rid of its musty smell (finally went away) but the others i have yet to work on. My Hoover Upright really needs to have the fan cleaned, since its direct air, as well as its bearings oiled. Hasnt been serviced since 2000
Andy Rousonelos

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For people like me, filteration makes a huge difference. I have asthma and severe allergies combined with little storage space effects what machines I keep in my collection. I use the cloth hepa bags in several machines with great results. I use them in my Oreck Buster B to clean out pianos before I tune them for clients. The suction improved noticeably, far less loss of air flow and zero odor to the point I have to remember to check the bag because it'll keep going packed full. If there is a way to improve filteration then I'm gonna use it.

I have wear a mask when changing bags or taking apart machines to clean so you can understand the only bag less vacuum I own is my trusty Rainbow D4 SE PN2. I adore my classic Hoover convertibles but I use them only occasionally for fun and not much is offered for them in high filteration.

I have gone to the hospital with severe asthma attacks from dealing with dusty vacuums. The first time was using a Sanitaire commercial with a shake out bag that leaked from the top, second was forgetting to wear a mask when emptying a Kirby classic lll shake out bag and very nasty attack when using and emptying my sisters Dyson ( it had a leak and I thought I was standing upwind when emptying but wind changed direction).

I gladly pay extra for better grade bags to help me and and the added bonus of keeping my clean air machines working cleaner which equals higher efficiency. I rely on three favorites to keep the home clean with two of having the hepa bags installed ( Kirby Heritage ll with Sentria hepa bag modification and Panasonic Platinum Performance Plus with hepa bags installed). I breath nice and easy in my home and I can lay off allergy pills on my days off work.
 
That really is a case where i TOTALLY get using HEPA. Its when its just an average person using them for no reason other that to be on the HEPA Hype
 
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@vacuumlad1650 - Exactly, exactly, exactly. When there is a medical or therapeutic need for HEPA or other micro-filtration then of course people should avail themselves of it. But the average person with no allergies or asthma has no need for it and it just wasting their money.
 
If anything, the average person using hepa are doing harm. They should be breathing some dirt and dust to straighten their immune system. Not excessive amounts, but a small amount some
 
I've not noticed a difference using a vacuum that "HEPA" vs. micro filteration. Both seem to work very well for me along with water filtering. I grew up with my mom using a Rainbow D3 so I never had issues until my dad broke it and replaced it with a Hoover Legacy hard shell. We had to buy air purifiers after that. When my dad broke the Hoover and guiltily replaced it with a Rainbow E series, we stopped needing the air purifiers as much and he quit vacuuming.

Filteration is a must for people like me but I don't like the hype that many brands are using HEPA as a sales buzz word. Not knocking Dyson for cleaning ability but some like me can't use one due to maintenance hazards. I have to wear a mask to take one outside to empty (emptying indoor is not an option) and taking apart to clean bin and filters or have some else do it in another house so where's the practicality of it? In this case it seems futile to promote HEPA for a machine that creates dirty air when maintenance after use. Brands like Sebo, Miele, Oreck, Aerus etc etc that make the self sealing bags put thought into their products for people like me.

With the growing number of people with allergies, asthma, COPD, and lung cancer the need for HEPA is great when used in the right application. If a person doesn't need this level then why should the waste hard earned money?
 
In a single simple picture...

It's like trying to close a door with an extension cord going through it.


In short, this is why.

This is a picture of what it looks like on the inside of vacuum bag when the door closes and the fill tube is inserted.

Look at the gap around that tab. Dust and dirt DOES leak out there.

I've continued this discussion in another thread:

http://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?30772_4~1
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Lets not forget, the suction will pull the dust in and the membrane closed. it will only be like that when the vacuum isnt turned on
Andy Rousonelos
 
Andy

"If anything, the average person using hepa are doing harm. They should be breathing some dirt and dust to straighten their immune system."

You have a valid point there. But, in my opinion, you are doing more harm by NOT using HEPA Cloth bags & HEPA filters!

Let me ask a question here....Do you realize what the dirt in your carpet is actually comprised of? It's NOT just dust & dirt. Carpeting itself, by it's very nature, whether it be area rugs or wall-to-wall, has some very nasty chemicals in it, due to the manufacturing processes used to make it. Formaldehyde being one of them. Then, if you are the average person who uses carpet powders, like Arm & Hammer, you have the toxic residue still left, plus if you shampoo carpets using a machine like the Aerus Floor Pro or Kirby Carpet Shampoo System, or use a residential-grade extractor, such as a Hoover SteamVac or Rug Doctor, your carpets will have residue from the detergent used. Then, you vacuum 2 or 3 times a week, & your vacuum picks up all the dirt, & spews all that dust back into the air, along with all the chemical residue. If you don't have a air purifier running in the room as you clean, guess where all that toxic dust goes?? YOUR LUNGS!!!!! If I owned my own house & didn't rent a apartment, I would NEVER have wall-to-wall carpeting in my home, only area rugs, & they would get replaced every few years.

Indoor air quality in homes today is a HUGE problem! To the point, in my opinion, that anyone with children should be using air purifiers & a vacuum with a HEPA Filter on the exhaust, & preferably a bagged vacuum with HEPA Cloth bags. Kids today are exposed to so much pollution & dust outside, at school, at their friend's homes, & while playing, they don't need any more exposure once they get home & see their siblings & Mom & Dad. People that grew up decades ago in the 50's, 60's, & 70's may have been able to put up with the dust exposure that occurs using vintage vacuums with (what we now know to be) poor filtration & not develop allergies or asthma. But the world kids grow up in today has changed drastically, & in a lot of cases, their immune systems are underdeveloped when they are born. Yes, a child does need to be exposed to pollutants in small levels to build their immune system, but NOT the kind of toxic dust & chemicals that vacuums without proper filtration emit back into the ambient room enviroment.

So, do I use HEPA Cloth bags in my vacuums? Yes! Absolutely. And I also run 2 HEPA air purifiers in my home 24/7, changing the filters once a year. Being a allergy sufferer myself here, I do feel the dust in the air if I use paper bags, or if I empty a bagless vacuum without wearing a mask. Same goes if I forget to change the air purifier filters for too long, I can tell some dust is still present. I also think using HEPA Cloth bags makes my vacuums clean better too....in my Electrolux canisters, the bags don't take nearly as long to clog as the 4 ply bags or Aerus Home Solutions bags. As for whether HEPA Cloth bags cause a vacuum to overheat? I haven't noticed any difference there. I think it would be the opposite....using paper bags would actually cause a vacuum to overheat more than HEPA Cloth bags, since paper micro-filtration bags clog much quicker, reduce airflow & cleaning efficiency throughout the vacuum, & therefore put more strain on the motor.

Rob
 
Well, Rob
One thing Im going to point out is there is very little carpet in my house. Only in our bedrooms, as well as a rug in the Living Room and one in the front hall, as well as by the garage door and back door. I have never (and will never) use carpet powder, nor have our carpets ever been shampooed. We are hoping to hire a professional to do that here in 2016.
Another point, that you and I have discussed in the past, is the increasing cost in HEPA bags. I do see the point in HEPA filters and Bags if you have Allergys, but when you dont, you are harming yourself.
When at work on our farm, I am ofter engulfed in dust-clouds from cabless tractors with some jobs. When we harvest, the dust is thick enough to hinder your vision. Dad and I have been doing this all our lives and we are both in good health. My grandfather did this for 82 years before he had a stroke and retired. He passed away in good health, but he had choked on a sandwich, and got scared, and had a fatal heart attack. He lived on a farm until he was 86, then moved into assisted living due to his speech and mobility issues after his stroke. He breathed dusty air all those years and was fine! Even more, my Grandmother used all Electrolux in their house with Generic paperbags. She never once changed the filters on her vacuums, and is still in good physical health today.
It really depends on the person. Some people are sensitave to dirt and germs. That is a case where HEPA is a must. I really never saw a need for it in my life, nor in the lives of many others who use it. There are many counter arguments, but there are also many that go along with this point. I still want to hear the opinions of others who wish to share
Andy Rousonelos
 
Healthy people breathing dust

Is still not a good idea.   We know very little about what is in our dust, anything from lead to insect droppings.  Though I doubt many of us are dealing with Ebola or Nuclear Waste we don't know what long term effects of carbon dust, and other byproducts of living will do to us after long and repeated exposures. 


 


Plain ole dust, we here in Kansas are familiar.  There is a condition many people in Kansas develop called Granulomaous, where dust is is inhaled into the lungs, the filter system in our lungs are very  efficient, but when over loaded and not removed the lung then forms a protective layer around the dust particle forming a granual this granual can then form a mold infection inside as the body is attempting to attack it we develop antibodies and increased  white cells.   This can also lead to violent reactions to mold based antibiotics.  


 


My doctor said that if they see this condition in other areas of the country they get concerned, in Kansas it's so common they don't worry. 


 


But you see a blanket statement that we should breath dust is irresponsible, as we can get enough dust in the outside world, but we should attempt to curtail it in our homes where the air quality is 10x worse than it is outside.  


 


People that don't want dust control are free to not use it.  


Though I do agree with you that marketing hype has placed HEPA in the same category  green tea and carb reduced cereal I still feel that good filtration, maybe not HEPA like, has it's necessity. 
 
I do have allergies, but bigger issue here?? I Despise! Dusting! I break crap way too easily. Clumsy sure, but fingers have no real feeling and they move stiffly at best, so I do anything to keep dust to a minimum.My own world, not everyone else's of course.
 
Allergies and asthma, etc are, of course good reasons to use

Hepa.
I hear some people, only a rare few, exactly, complain about a vacuum belching out dust...Hoover , "Convertibles", for example.
I ask myself, what do you pick up in your Convertible? How often do you change your bag? What type of bag(s) do you use? Maybe you don't have the correct "technique"? With over 100 Hoover Convertibles in my collection of over 450 Hoover products, I never experience dust 'belching'. Changing those bags is really simple. Anyone could do it, or almost anyone, I'd imagine. And, if you use Type "A"..... well HOW CAN YOU "GET IT WRONG"? I ask you that.
Perhaps I'm very fortunate to have these machines in my home. Dust never belches, passes, leaks, (feel free to pick a verb). If anyone is experiencing these issues, I'm sure one of us, many, actually, could walk you through it. I never bash any brand of vacuum, (do I?) It's terrible to see someone having so many problems with a certain vacuum company, appliance, model, etc.
I'm sure if it were a nationwide problem, someone at HOOVER would have looked into this very closely. There would have been a recall, engineering would have been on top of that in a heartbeat.

I asked Ray Porter, (supervisor of HOOVER Bag Plant #2, why they didn't jump on the Hepa bandwagon in the beginning of the Hepa craze. He replied, "They should have".
 
As owner of the Hoover Senior and Junior models with the bottom fill bag and dust channel I can testify dust belching out always occurred when changing the bag. Oh of course unless I was like my poor grandmother with arthritic fingers and hands and had to take everything twice as slowly.

Much prefer Hoover’s top fill dust channel tube. Life was far easier and less dustier, then. Made far more sense when the dust goes down into the bag rather than wasting it at the collar.

Just my tuppence worth here.
 
Hepa? Me? No. Frankly, I have other things to worry about! Minor roof leak at the moment! If I had a severe dust allergy I might think differently. I think our society has become too clean. If people want to call me ignorant that's fine with me. I'll just continue to push my convertible or cloth bag Kirby in ignorance.. Hey at least I'm happy, LOL!
 
Klovland

I just find humor in the fact that your avatar is with an Air-Way, one of the first HEPA like bags on the market. 


 


John


I think the paper disposable bag was the biggest advent to vacuum cleaners.  You were able to toss it away without creating a puff of dust in the air.  We've come a long way since the pillow case on the fan box.


 


 


 

[this post was last edited: 1/4/2016-16:43]
 
I didn't read all of the comments so someone could have already said this, but in my experience a synthetic hepa bag not only filters better meaning the vacuum fan stays clean but I have found that the hepa bags let the air flow easier through the machine than a paper bag and maintain that performance meaning less strain on the motor.
 

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