New EU Regs

[kirbymodel2c]

Umm

Yep I still get bagged vacs in with burnt out motors. From the Miele & Sebo end to the cheaper bagged vacs like the Panasonic uprights but more bagless vacs than bagged ones. This could be partly down to more bagless vacs being sold now.


 


I would say it's a mix of the manufacturers not wanting the motor to last to long with average use and people not maintaining their vacs as well as abusing them. In bagged vacs I still see people fishing dirt out their bags to keep reusing them. Or surprised you can't suck up large object with out them becoming stuck. My supplier had another lady in last week who was surprised you had to empty the vacuum.

I had a DC41 in last year that had 8 months of doing the "shake n vac" that had killed off the motor. I wonder if they read the instructions?


 


James

 


 

 

[madaboutsebo]

The Start of the SEBO Eco vacuums....

Just having a look around at the SEBO UK and German websites I noticed on the German SEBO website the arrival of the start of their Eco vacuums in the form of the SEBO K Series as Ryan state they where working on some Eco Models. They come in 3 models:

SEBO Airbelt K1 ECO 1200
SEBO Airbelt K1 ECO 700
SEBO Airbelt K3 ECO Comfort

Motor wattage ranges from 700 to 1200 watts as stated above in the model line up. Looks like there is new airbelt designs too! The 700 watt falls into the second phase of the EU Regs of 900 watts and the other 2 within this years 1600 watts. Be interesting to see how the 700 watt K Series performs. Be interesting to see what other models in the SEBO line up have the Eco range added! I wonder if any completely new models emerge too!?

Note: The pictures they have put on there might be old as the wattage on the machine states 1500 and 2100 when you take a look at each model!

 

[sebo_fan]

Well spotted Jon! AEG also have an improved UOGREEN Ultra model out, rated also at 700 watts. its currently £249 at Amazon UK.

 

[madaboutsebo]

Thanks Ryan. I only noticed it as I went to check out the SEBO Germany website as well as the UK and there they where on the home page! I wonder what SEBO UK will bring us out of those 3 K Series models from Germany?

That's a nice looking cylinder from AEG, take its a bag version? Looks like some manufacturers are choosing to go for the lower wattage to meet the new regs in 2017 now rather than wait which is not a bad thing. Would like to see how they perform these 700 watt vacuums should be ok? I don't have my Felix on full, only occasionally on hard floors for an extra boost!

 

[sebo_fan]

The K Eco models are relatively new and haven't yet been tested or bought. (those with the 700 watt or 1200 watt models with the electronic suction slider control on the handle).

However the Miele S8 Silence Plus has been tested and bought by some buyers in the EU and it gets top marks - that has 700 watts too.

 

[madaboutsebo]

I'm sure they will do fine. That's interesting to know about the Miele S8 Silence Plus thanks for that info. Sounds promising for the new Eco SEBO K models 700 and 1200 watts.

From what you can see on the SEBO German website doesn't look like they have changed or redesigned the floor heads or anything else other than changed the motor. If that's the case and they perform well like the Miele S8 then that will be great. Wonder if a 700, 800 or 900 watt Felix or X series will appear! Well the original X1 was 800 or 900 watts wasn't it?

 

[sebo_fan]

It was but it was released at a time when "power hungry" vacs started to come on the market. SEBO have already given a new floor head to some of the Eco models, featured on the D2 series, as yet not available in the UK. Its a Wessel werk floor head that Miele first featured with their S4 Ecoline.

It wouldn't be hard for SEBO to lower the motor on the Felix, but getting around the PN floor head may be harder.

As for the X1 - well, as the owner of one - there is minimal difference of suction between that and the X1.1 Perhaps SEBO will lower the watts, but to be fair, both the Felix and the X are already low enough with their existing range.

I'm more interested to see how Miele would tackle with their S7. Knowing that it has 1800 watts already.

 

[madaboutsebo]

I did wonder if they had changed anything else other than the motor wattage. Will take a look.

That's true suppose the PN will have to be taken into account. That's good to know the X1verses the X1.1. I was jumping the gun a bit and thinking what SEBO will do for when the 2017 regs come in but that's a few years off yet and things could change!

Yes that will be an interesting one for Miele the S7. It does have a complex air path from floor to bag and bag through to motor and out of the machine! Suppose that's down to the swivel head design. I wonder if they have a replacement in mind already or working on one or just lower the motor wattage to meet the 2014 regs for now!

 

[vintagerepairer]

2017 regs

Frankly, by the time the ruling for 900watts comes into force in 2017, I predict that no vacuum cleaner will be exceeding it by then anyway. Whilst I welcome the rulings, there is no getting away from the fact that this is costing vacuum cleaner manufacturers a good deal of money. I expect they could ill afford the expense once, let alone twice, so it makes sense for them to get their cleaners below 900watts now, in time for the 2014 rulings, as opposed to getting them to 1600 watts this yer and then going through it all again to get them down to 900 watts in three years time. I think by 2017 it will only be the cheap and brash cleaners which will still be boasting a 1600 wattage.

 

[sebo_fan]

Thing is, there are vacuums that presently have 900 watts and even lower- but they come under the vintage line! One that I see quite regularly is the Hoover wet and dry canister - 900 watts clearly written along the main body.

By 2017, I don't think any company will be able to sell anything at 1600 watts. If brands start producing 700 to 900 watts now and within the EU law, they won't have to change much. However, they will have to redesign key elements and probably, yes it may well mean they have to spend a bit of money - but its about time they did this. Some brands charge too much any way at cost prices!

 

[madaboutsebo]

True Vintagerepairer it's going to cost company's money anyway for the changes why do it twice might as well only do it once which will I suppose cost less. Never the less will cost them to make the changes.

Looking at what is starting to come out it's certainly looks that way. Most will be under 900 watts well before 2017 and before this years ruling too.

 

[madabouthoovers]

What concerns me a bit about this is that many cylinder vacs that use turbo brush heads need the higher wattage to be able to drive the turbine fast enough to work properly on carpets. Under 1000W and these heads just wont be effective any longer. I tried the airobrush head on the Henry at half power (600W) and it wasn't very good, kept slowing down. Using the Turbo brush on the Miele models set on the equivalent of 900W aint much good either on anything but very short pile mats or carpets. To work properly on these models, you really need at least 1200W of power input to drive these brushes on cut pile carpets.


Perhaps they might have to re-launch more power nozzles again like the Miele Revolution, or the Sebo D4 or K3 Premium? Failing that the only other solution is to only use an upright for carpets, or to buy a battery operated brush like the Miele Accu Nova.

 

[madaboutsebo]

They will expect the manufacturers to come up with something that works on 900 watts or below. Doesn't Dyson's 600/700 watt DC50 or the DC24 use an air driven mini turbo brush? I know they are uprights but they are lower wattage. Just a thought!

What about cylinders and uprights that use 2 motors how does that fall into the 900 watt regs? Is it both combined? I can't remember the regs I read mention dual motors will have to take another look.

 

[madabouthoovers]

I'm not on about the small mini turbo brushes, Im on about the large floorhead size ones, that many people use to get up pet hairs off carpets, including me. They are more versatile that uprights as they can get into more nooks and crannies that my uprights cant.


The average power nozzle uses about 150W, which means that the suction motor could only use 750W to comply with the 900W limit.


This is gonna be like going back to the 70's again, where we have to start using dirty fan uprights on carpets as cylinder models just wont be able to drive turbine heads for carpet use, and will become only for hard floor use.


I bet Kirby are laughing their socks off at this, as their vacs have NEVER exceeded 900W lol

 

[madabouthoovers]

Then again, I have so many vacs over 900W I never need to worry, as they will probably last me the rest of my life without ever having to buy another vac again!

 

[madaboutsebo]

Sorry I knew you where on about the larger floor heads I was thinking if a smaller version could work on a lower wattage motor the manufacturers surely could come up with something for the large floor head.

That's what I was thinking the 900 watts would probably include both power head and main unit added together. 750 watts might be ok for the main unit if the rest was used for the power head.

Certainly would be, time to start getting them dirt fan vacs out the closet then!!!

I bet there are!!! They can carry on as normal!

That's you sorted then for the future!

 

[sebo_fan]

I have to say though - when I had my Hoover TP2 Autosense, it literally flew with a mini 32mm universal mini turbo brush on its short hose. Now the TP2 had 800 watts total, so, figure on that.

By all means, try it yourselves if any of you own a vintage cylinder or upright with a hose on it - you might be surprised.

It reiterates that whilst current offerings aren't as well built as they used to be. Because if that generic 32 mm pet hair turbo brush spins extremely fast, then who really needs to buy "eco" badged vacuums when vintage ones come along with the amount of power that ironically, the EU law is trying to sustain?

 

[madabouthoovers]

I tried it with my Kirby G4, putting a 32mm vax mini turbo brush on the end of the hose, and yes, it ran OK, but a full size floor brush takes a lot more airflow to be able to overcome the resistance of the brushroll to the carpet.


 


Its all academic for me anyway, as I have enough higher wattage vacs and bags to use with them to last well into the future. You could say I've stockpiled them in anticipation of the EU rules lol

 

[sebo_fan]

Of the ones I now have, the only high power vacs I have is my Miele S5211 (2200 watts), SEBO D2 Total (2100 watts), K3 Premium (1800 watts) and my new Miele S8340 Ecoline, which ironically even with a 1200 watt motor, will still sit "outside" the new law.

Of the uprights, SEBO Felix at 1300 watts, Hoover Slalom at 1200 watts, SEBO X1 Auto at 850 watts and Vax VCU02 at 450 watts.

 

[turbo500]

Let's not forget that Numatic are boasting a 10% suction increase with a 650w motor. It's common knowledge that high wattage doesn't necessarily mean more suction. So if the manufacturers are coming up with new ways to generate high suction, the turbo brush thing shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[sebo_fan]

I had a flash of memory go by when talking to a friend of mine earlier about stick vacuums in the UK.

Clearly when you look at the stick vacuums "of old" when they were sold here, most had 500 watts to 900 watts max. Only a few had brush rolls and effectively you could say that the Vax Mach Air original model is like a redesigned stick vacuum and upright all in one due to its size and shape, or latterly Dyson's DC24.

So, what is stopping brands that produce corded stick vacuums already in Europe from selling them in the UK? Hoover have plenty of corded stick vacs as do Bosch and others.

They may well have tiny bag capacities, but I can forsee that perhaps bagged and bagless corded stick vacs may be returning to the UK. That way, the EU law is satisfied and every possibility of uprights "becoming smaller" could be done without much of a redesign.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"the TP2 had 800 watts total..."

It probably featured a two-stage fan assembly, in addition to sealed suction (or nearly sealed, if the bag-check indicator was of the piston type).

As you know, Electrolux was another manufacturer who had low noise, two-stage motors in their clean-fan machines.

There is absolutely no reason why carefully thought out design should compromise performance.

The Sebo X4 motor looks to me to be a two-stage motor, too.

 

[sebo_fan]

Good point Rolls, but then I think it comes down to cost of manufacture with the other brands - if it costs too much to add proper sealed suction with no leaks and proper airflow, then that's one reason alone to why brands aren't building vacuums properly.

 

[adamthemieleman]

I personally can't wait, no more will we have shoddily made screamers.

It amazes me that people ask me for the most efficient washing machine, fridge or TV, but when it comes to vacuums it's totally the opposite. Obviously they must use a different kind of electricity!
Or even better, I get asked why they are made. Maybe because the public are mugs and open to any daft information they're given without thinking, or in other words, they're getting what they think is right.

That's where my job comes in, some people believe me, some think I'm talking rubbish.
You pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[ultimatevacman]

As I've said before, I completely welcome this new law. Vacuums will be quieter, designed better, and hopefully, will last longer. The only downside I can see is they will get more expensive, but I suppose it's not a bad thing, as it may stop people from chucking away a vac they bought for £50 every year and buying another one.

 

[madabouthoovers]

Considering this new law comes in in 6 months, there are still so many vacs being sold over 1600W, moreso cylinder models.


No-one seems to be in the slightest interested in this, and I just cant see every 1600W+ vacuum suddenly disappearing from sale in September this year. I reckon loads of dealers will flout the rule.


Can you really see all these high wattage cleaners suddenly disappear?


I'd have thought that by now, many places would be considerably discounting these high wattage vacs to get rid of them all by September, but Miele's website, and everyone else's come to think of it are still selling these 1600W+ vacs at full price. I don't think they are really taking this seriously, or they have other means of selling these vacs after September.


 


As far as I'm aware, it will be illegal to sell any vac higher than 1600W from Sept, but can this be got around by opening the boxes, and then selling them as used, or seller refurbished, not new?


Its all still very confusing how this is going to work.

 

[sebo_fan]

The capped power issue may well bring new positive changes but at the same time there may well be an influx of cordless vacs appearing on the market, cue Hoover's new Air Cordless upright in the U.S. There may well be a Vax version sooner than later.

 

[spiraclean]

For the most part, few if any vacuum cleaner manufacturers are still in the business of making their own motors. They are generally outsourced to a third party company, each of whom offer a vast selection of models with varying specifications. It will be they who redesign motors to suit the upcoming legislation, with vacuum manufacturers continuing to simply buy them "off the shelf" as they always have done before. This may mean they end up paying a few extra pounds for each motor, which will undoubtedly be passed along to the consumer somewhere along the line, but the vacuum manufacturers themselves will not necessarily have to sink millions into R&D as far as motor technology is concerned. All they need do is ask their supplier to provide a motor that uses X number of watts and gives Y amount of suction, wait for them to arrive and then start slapping them into cleaners on their assembly lines.

Something tells me Numatic may have been working alongside their motor supplier to come up with a particular specification for their upcoming models, and have it ready for market at such an early stage, hence their large spend on this project. I cannot see the price of a Henry going up however, because the £100-ish price point (give or take a tenner) is so firmly established now. They are far more likely IMHO to recoup the R&D costs by tacking an extra quid or two onto other products they sell, or trimming costs elsewhere.

Dyson will most likely continue further down the digital motor route. The more this ends up costing the better as far as they are concerned; it serves as fodder for the gadget blogs, which in turn boost sales amongst those who simply must have the latest and greatest "technology". Whether or not it actually keeps the house any cleaner is besides the point, but then it always was. If you think their £430 upright and £460 cylinder are expensive already, wait til they stick a digital motor in them. It will be just the push needed to break through the £500 price ceiling.