Need Assistance in Diagnosing D80

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vaclab

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
222
Location
Pickerington, Ohio
My wonderfully polished D80 will not run after re-assembly. The headlight comes on and I've checked for power at the brushes (brushes removed of course) and I see 121 volts, sooo I need help making my shiny beauty run once again. I know these machines had issues with switches and wiring, but so far, I can find no obvious problem. I have no issue re-wiring it to run on low speed permanently but would prefer not to do that.

With an ohm meter, would anyone know what the various readings should be at various testing points?

Bill

 
i have a service manual from that era

ill look and see if it has a electrical range chart for load testing wires. i remember seeing charts in there but forget what they were for. ive never used multi meters to troubleshoot problems on vacuums this old before. ill post back if i find anything useful for you.
 
Sounds like

Sounds like the speed control switch is bad. It makes contact for the light but no contact for the motor. I am willing to bet this is the problem. Direct connect the motor to see if it runs.
 
Hey

It is 1 of 3 things.
1. Bad safety switch
2. Bad power switch
3. The motor is not grounding out or power is grounding out.
I'd bet it's 1 of the first two as you have power with light. So it's probably safety switch.
Les
Good luck your videos on d80 are awesome.

Les
 
If it ran before you worked on it, then it should be an easy fix.

First check the wires at the safety switch to make sure none popped out like they do sometimes.

If you took any wires out of anywhere, make sure they are back in the right places.

Make sure motor brushes are not hanging up in the holder and springs are springy.

Make sure wires are securely fastened to the tabs to the motor brushes.

Clean commutator bars if you think polish could have gotten onto them.

If the above are fine, check the armature for any accidental damage that you might have not been aware of.
 
Two Speed Switch Wiring

Here's my best guess with the two speed switch. The yellow was loose, so I tinned it and shoved it back in. It's a tight fit now.

vaclab-2018112621244707042_1.jpg
 
Foot Switch Wiring

The #1 blue-ish wire was so loose that it practically fell off, so I tinned it and shoved it back in. It's a tight connection now.

vaclab-2018112621281107805_1.jpg
 
Replies to suggestions

To LesinUtah:

1. Bad safety switch <- probably
2. Bad power switch <- maybe
3. The motor is not grounding out or power is grounding out. <- possible

Thanks for your kind words, Les!

===================================

To TexasKirbyGuy:

If it ran before you worked on it, then it should be an easy fix. <- Yes it ran fine before I disassembled it for polishing.

First check the wires at the safety switch to make sure none popped out like they do sometimes. <- some popped out and now they are back in

If you took any wires out of anywhere, make sure they are back in the right places. <- yup, done

Make sure motor brushes are not hanging up in the holder and springs are springy. <- smooth operation and springy

Make sure wires are securely fastened to the tabs to the motor brushes. <- measured this with an ohm meter, seems OK.

Clean commutator bars if you think polish could have gotten onto them. <- polished and picked out build up between bars with a toothpick.

If the above are fine, check the armature for any accidental damage that you might have not been aware of. <- can't seem to find any damage so far.

========================================================

I can't wait to find out what's causing the motor not to spin at all. No sparks, just nothing. But, I do get the light bulb's glorious illumination.

I'll keep working on it...

Wonder which wires to directly connect for the motor to run at low speed?

Bill
 
My own experience...

Well...

I had a similar issue with it running perfect until i took it apart for polishing.

For me, I wound up discovering that I reinstalled the front bearing in reverse (very stupid, yes I know, but it happened).

Also, bad safety switch is a very real culprit. It’s super easy to harm the switch during disassembly no matter how careful you are. I’ve a spare unused one laying around. Let me know if you are interested.
 
Somebody around here should have the wiring diagram for the motor. I could swear someone just posted a similar diagram not a month ago. I'm not familiar with these machines, but I believe the motor is not wired totally straight forward. Like, there's an extra coil in the field for the light bulb, or some weird crap like that. If you say you have power at the brush holders, there should be SOME kind of action from the motor when it's assembled. If nothing else, try assembling it again, power it up, bypass any safeties, and spin the motor by hand, seeing if there's any response.

Actually another good question is, does the armature spin freely when totally installed?

Lastly, with everything installed, safeties bypassed, play with the speed switch (and any other switches O_o), and wiggle the wires at any at all points, see if there's any response. This is called the 'wiggle test.' You'd be surprised how often the wiggle test yields some kind of clue.
 
MadMan

The only electrical diagrams I have for Kirby vacuums include one for models 505-515 and 516-Sanitronic VII (all single speed) and one for the Heritage II. So it would be cool if Will (bnsd60m9200) could try to upload what he has for models Dual Sanitronic 50/80, as I have a D80 myself (and also a Classic 1CR - the third and last Kirby to use the speed switch in question).

~Ben
 
I think your speed switch is miswired...
Below is mine (from Tradition) before I took it apart. Also if you look carefully on the switch, you can see letters for each colors at each hole. Look for these and verify the positions.

Be very careful with wiring this switch as certain combinations will burn up the motor (don't ask me how I know...)

texaskirbyguy-2018112622043907982_1.jpg
 
Hey

The speed switch is easy to wire. G is green y is yellow etc. The letter backside of switch.
Les
 
So the question remains...

Which two wires do I short together to get the motor to run at low speed? I don't have a coil/switch diagram handy, so I'm unsure at this point...

Bill
 
Hey

Here is pic of nos safety switch for a d80.
The right front side of switch is high speed.
Green is ground so doesn't mean anything.

So guessing yellow red is high white is neutral would be hooked up and black wire from coil and black and white from headlight need hooked up. So 2 white direct hook up to foot switch two black direct hook up to foot switch and ground green wires. Unhook other wires and cap off.
This should bypass safety switch run single speed.
I believe red is high speed power wire and yellow is neutral wire.
Les

lesinutah-2018112720310804662_1.jpg

lesinutah-2018112720310804662_2.jpg
 
I could make a diagram if I had a machine to reverse engineer.

If you want to be sure of your wiring, get an ohmmeter (or multimeter), and ohm the field coil. I don't know, but I'm assuming the motor assembly has... 5 wires. Did I guess right? 1 common, 2 speeds, 2 wires for the light bulb. Well, here's what you do. Take the armature out of the field. Connect one ohmmeter test lead to one of the brush holders (or wherever the brush gets its power [some brushes have a spring that touch a contact, or a braided wire that's attached to the brush]) then connect the other test lead to each of the wires coming from the field coil. tbh, I'm not entirely sure how much resistance you're looking for, but I'd bet any reading at all would infer a connection. Just be sure to test ALL the wires, to be sure you've got the right wire. Write down your findings and repeat with the other brush holder. I'm thinking - but I'm not 100% sure - that you will find two wires that have no connectivity to either brush holder. That'll be that stupid light bulb winding, ignore those wires.

Now, you want 1 wire from each half of the field coil winding. It may be tricky to visually pick those. From the wires you ohmed, you'll want 1 wire that has connection to only the 1st brush holder and not the 2nd, and a another wire that has only connection to the 2nd brush holder and not the 1st. With the motor assembled, connect those two wires to 120vac and the motor *should* run at some speed.

Alternatively, if you want to skip the above, and/or if you're (rightfully) worried about damaging the motor by hooking up the wires wrong, you could hook it up in series with a light bulb. An actual old fashioned incandescent light bulb. Ideally a 100 watt. It's a little difficult because technically you'd want a bulb of the same wattage as the load you're putting through it, but I don't think you're gonna find a 2000 watt bulb. Anyhow, if the bulb lights up near full strength, you're probably attached to that stupid extra winding in the field coil. I'd say it might not light at all, or very little, if you're attached to the motor properly (or rather on of the two speeds). I hope I'm thinking this through properly. But at least with the light bulb, if nothing else, it will act as a fuse and protect the motor. Though I think it's unlikely to blow the bulb, the bulb lighting fully will indicate a short. Or near short. I suppose it might light the bulb with any connection (because it's not high enough wattage [electricity is hard to think about, so I'm not sure]), which then you wouldn't have learned anything, but you wouldn't have fried the motor, either. Safest bet, anyhow.

I hope I'm helping.
 
Some Continuity Testing Later...

And here's what I found so far. I've checked this with two D80 switches (of course both could be bad I suppose).

High Speed = Green and Yellow wires shorted PLUS White and Red wires shorted
Low Speed = Red and Yellow wires shorted

ALL switch connections/configurations measured 0.0 Ohms.

Coil Winding #1 = Yellow and White wires. Meter read about 1.5 Ohms
Coil Winding #2 = Green and Red wires. Meter read about 1.5 Ohms

Brushes are clean and springy in their holders with good connectivity to the commutator.

I'll do more tests as I find time. Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

Bill

vaclab-2018112820472506067_1.jpg
 
Cankles 🤦‍♂️

🤦‍♂️ Not much to go wrong here.
Cord
Switch on/off
Carbon brushes
Safety switch
Motor



Test and replace Parts in that order how has this thread going on so long?
 
Hey

Maybe because we like the vaclabs fellow and trying to help him out.
Unhook the speed switch.
Cap high speed wires.
You will have 4 wires hooked up to foot switch. Black and White from headlight. I'm red and yellow for low speed. The power wires I think have a b below the 4 connectors. Hook up black and red to 2 terminals on that side. Yellow and white(headlight on 2 of the 4 w terminals. Carbon brush cap wires are green and black. The green has a ground terminal on switch. The black has a spot too. The 4 terminals are in the side and there is a slot/ terminal on same side as other power wires. This is where the carbon brush wire goes.
You can do tests until blue in the face switches don't go out often. Push foot switch on and it should start up. If it doesn't it could be switch highly doubt it though. Your field coil is gone.
Hopefully this solves it.
Les
 
Not sure if this may give any clues, but here goes...
I restored my Mom's original D50 last year and its speed switch had been completely bypassed for decades and it ran in LOW only. Below are some pictures of how it was wired...
Red and yellow were permanently wire-nutted together. White (wire-nutted to tan) ran to top 'W' of power switch. Green went to top 'G' of the the power switch.

Of course it would run without an attachment on the front, but I am sure there is a way to at least use that part of the safety switch...

Hope this helps.
BTW, when trying the machine out after rewiring, watch the commutator and shut it off immediately if it sparks like a mad demon (which means a miswire that is pulling excess current.

texaskirbyguy-2018112918431504201_1.jpg

texaskirbyguy-2018112918431504201_2.jpg

texaskirbyguy-2018112918431504201_3.jpg

texaskirbyguy-2018112918431504201_4.jpg
 
I was going to make a motor diagram just based on guessing, but then I looked at the Heritage II wiring diagram, and it's insane. They could have just used a normal two speed motor, and a normal 120v light bulb, but NO~OOO. So instead of guessing on something that complex, I just prettied up the switch diagram.

Link below has Ben's Heritage II wiring diagram, which I honestly doubt is all that different, so it'll probably be helpful, but obviously take it with a grain of salt. Let me just mention that I find it ridiculous that the Kirby people making the service manual were thoughtful enough to show you EXACTLY how the windings in the motor are wired in relation to everything else - very helpful, but had no such inclination to show you how the switches work.

https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?17773
madman-2018112919234800803_1.jpg
 

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