Like Brand New Kirby 519 in Box

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Chicagomike
Im not sure on the 'St Charles, California' issue, but Fred lives in his home in St Charles Illinois which he affectionately calls Tarantula Arms (His own explanation i am unaware). He originally came from California, so it is possible he never changed his location on Ebay
Though I want to see this dispute solved, im not going to pick sides here. Fred and Bill are both very nice guys, but i dont like to pick sides in an argument like this
Andy Rousonelos
 
EBay Kirby sale

While I do not 'have a dog in this fight' I have many thoughts on this matter,some of which I will share.

Fred has and has sold many VERY NICE vacs.

"don't think it is right--without knowing--facts"--A rare voice of reason.(By the way has anyone notified a certain national candidate that we could speed up the US justice system with juries that can make up their mind without hearing both sides?!?)

"busy and hectic time"--If any of us told another the things we must do that delay things we need or want to do could we understand?

"a GORGEOUS profit"--It would seem more likely that a Kirby dealers profit would come from modern Kirby sales and service with the above Kirby being a collectors item.

"was insurance taken out-?"--Even with the best packing damage CAN happen.

"typical xxxxxxxxx Kirby salesman"--While we can form an opinion of any group of people and there was a front page article years ago in the Wall Street Journal on Kirby sales tactics in limited areas Bill may be anything but 'typical' if he has indeed provided an honest service to hundreds of customers over many years as well as having skill,knowledge and respect for history of Kirby.

"Fred lives in--IL"--In the first post he states-"I've moved to Palm Springs(CA)".(Where he could be enjoying not only the weather and landscape but architecture by Frey,Neutra,Loewy and others.)
 
rugsucker, re: "a GORGEOUS profit"

If a person gets a vintage Kirby unit 100% free, ANY profit they make is GORGEOUS as it came at ABSOLUTELY NO COST to them.  They haven't even had to store it for the 57 years of its existence.  No cost!


 


So while "it would seem more likely that a Kirby dealer's profit would come from modern Kirby sales", the "above Kirby being a collector's item" obtained for free will make an outstanding profit.  Even if he sells it for ONLY $100, that's $100 more dollars than he invested, which is something like 10,000% profit on the dollar (at this conservative resale price).


 


I'm pretty sure modern Kirbys are not sold for a 10,000% profit.  If a new Kirby were sold for $2400 retail and had a 10,000% profit, it's wholesale cost would have to be 24 cents.  Likewise, a new Kirby sold for $1500 on a 10,000% profit would have a wholesale cost of 15 cents.  We all know this is not the case.  Therefore, the resale of this free unit DEFINITELY qualifies as a GORGEOUS profit.
 
Well...

I've never read such a despicable load of hatred, ever...

The public scrutiny over a transaction none of us were privy too is absolutely disgraceful. It's not often I'll post much, but I'm sure going to weigh in on this one.

Those of you who've had nothing positive to say should be ashamed.

THIS behavior should NOT be the way this group is EVER portrayed.

I'm embarrassed to be associated with this kind of public display of childish behavior. Let the seller and buyer resolve their issue like adults and in the due time it takes - and preferably in private. At the end of the day, the bulk of this thread is hearsay and then all of a sudden, every man and his dog picks a side and flogs the opponent. It's disgusting behavior and none of us (I honestly feel) should be weighing in with any opinions. I'm with Chicagomike!

This thread should be removed.

I've too been burned by eBay sales with high profile members of this group, and equally been shafted, but I'm not about to go and make a big drama out of it, let alone a witch-hunt over of all things, a freaking vacuum cleaner...

Absolutely disgusted.
 
Really, people, Im not going to pick sides here, i have 1 last thing to say. Then im done with this thread
I once bought an Electrolux G. It was wrapped in 4 layers of bubble wrap, and was surrounded with newspaper and packing peanuts. When it came, one wheel was shattered. The packing job was perfect, but the Postal Service didnt like my box!

Again, NOT picking sides here.
Andy
 
dysonman1 (Rolla, Missouri)

"Chicagomike: You can shut the hell up. I know the seller personally AND have seen the vacuum in question personally." Well then you know the vacuum is not "Like New in Original Box All Original" and furthermore has been used more than “once or twice" and not "like new” because is has replacement parts on the machine! I am so happy you agree with me dysonman!

"Do you even know who the seller is? I do." Great news for you dysonman1!! I bet your are proud to know the seller who blatantly mis-represented the 519.

"All I know about YOU is your horrible, cootie infested piles of crap you were trying to unload on ebay" dysonman1, I am heart-broken to hear you think my work is... horrible, cootie infested piles of crap... How about you bring a vac you restored to the convention in Chicago this year and let the judges decide whose work is horrible, cootie infested piles of crap...

Quite honestly, dysonman1 if you looked at the vacuum in person, please post something worthy of reading as your post did not address anything relating to my comments. So please tell me, is the brush roll original to the machine :)? If it is not original to the machine the description of the vacuum is 100% inaccurate. I also have no clue why you have bashing comments toward me or maybe you have to say something negative because you know what I initially posted about the matter is accurate and deflecting from what the post is about is your way of not coping with reality.

P.S., I look forward to seeing pictures of the fabulous vacuums you have personally restored (not pics of items someone donated to you)!

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The Bottom Line

Here is a matter of equity. Whether or not the machine was as represented (a matter of opinion and mine is that it was - check out the pictures above) per the buyer's request, I refunded the money and asked for the machine to be returned to me. Any legal court of equity would put the parties back to their original position in this transaction in spite of the vagaries of EBay. If the machine wasn't worth anything, why isn't the buyer willing to return it at my expense? It must be worth something (and believe me, it is.)
 
Ok. I think I have stayed silent too long on this.

First of all, let me say right now I am not taking sides. Don't even try to get me in the middle of this!

Second, I will say that certain member's actions & words on here are vicious, vile, hateful, reprehensible, disrespectful, vulgar, tasteless & show a lack of class. This thread has gone WAY TOO FAR in bashing a certain individual for trying to warn of a bad experience with a buyer, with the good & honest intention that nobody else get burned or feelings hurt by dealing with said person. Instead, this individual has been mercilessly attacked & literally fed to the lions!

To Robert Seger: Look, I think everybody knows here about recent threads that have gotten out of control & turned into wars & attacks on certain members. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! There has GOT to be certain rules made & existing rules altered, & some harsh penalties in the future for breaking the rules. More than just permanently banning members from the site. The threat of possibly being permanently banned is NOT working, if it was then more people would be thinking of this as they post these type of comments.

I can't tell you how many times over the past year how disgusted I have been at the conduct of certain members here! To the point where I am VERY tempted to close my account, & never return. I totally agree with Streakers above with his statements "Those of you who've had nothing positive to say should be ashamed.
THIS behavior should NOT be the way this group is EVER portrayed." I can HONESTLY say this is one group of people I am starting to think I want no part of anymore. It just never ceases to amaze me how nasty & vicious some people can be, & you can't even be respected for having your own opinion without a huge war starting.

Now to the matter at hand.

It occurs to me in matters like this, there is NEVER a truly innocent side. There is the victim's side, the other person being accused, & somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

I don't believe for one minute Fred Nelson, compactelectra, set out to deceive anybody here with this Ebay listing. Fred Nelson is one of the founding members of the VCCC & Vacuumland, with a superb reputation, highly respected in the vacuum collecting community, with poise & class. And notice how whenever there is any fighting or nasty threads going on, Fred is nowhere to be found contributing to it. He holds his head high & does not stoop down to the low levels some members on Vacuumland will go in their comments.

To me, this Kirby DOES look exactly as described in the listing - that it was found New In Box & used a couple of times very lightly & not for cleaning. The proof in that is right on the brushroll bristles....there is NO dirt, wearing of the bristles, or any paint scrapes on the wood itself if it HAD been used for cleaning. As for the originality of the brushroll, it is very possible Fred may have been deceived by the seller when he originally bought this years ago on Ebay. Another possibility is that perhaps the bearings were bad & it required replacement....after all, if it truly IS a NIB cleaner, bearings can & do go bad on vacuums when they just sit unused for years or decades. Furthermore, the condition of the tools & the lack of any tarnish on the metal body of the cleaner also leads one to believe this has hardly seen any use. As for the location from where the Kirby was shipped from? Well, it is entirely possible Fred forgot to update his location when he made the Ebay listing. I highly doubt this was intentional, as he had just moved. Furthermore, Fred has stated in a LOT of his different listings in the past he is a collector, & most collectors here know what his Ebay username is. The fact he stated here he is now living in Palm Springs when he was alerting members to the Ebay listing in my mind shows honesty was in his intentions all along. People can & DO make minor mistakes. So the man made a small error, cut him some slack!

As for Bill Edstrom, a007kirbyman, not returning the cleaner? Well, first off, he DID respond here, saying that this is an incredibly busy time of year for him. I think it behooves us all to hear HIS side of the story as well. It is very common to hear of shipping damage on items purchased thru the mail, regardless of whether purchased thru Ebay or another means. I don't believe Bill Edstrom would set out to deceive or cheat someone in this manner. His professional dealings as a Kirby dealer with a retail store, Ebay business, & his postings as a Vacuumland member, in intentions of helping other members with any information, knowledge or repair advice related to Kirby vacuums, is remarkable. I do personally think Bill has shown strong character & professionalism in his comments & postings, character that quite frankly is hardly seen anymore in dealing with business owners in a retail environment.

Having said that, there HAS to be a reason why the cleaner has not been returned. We do not know EVERYTHING that has been instructed thru Ebay for both seller & buyer to do. What we do know here is that Fred Nelson has refunded Bill's money, & is dissatisfied with not receiving the Kirby back. In my opinion, since this is supposedly a New In Box cleaner, but that was found on Ebay....well, there is good reason why some people refer to Ebay as "Fleabay". I do think it's entirely possible Fred Nelson may have been deceived years ago by the Ebay seller he bought this from....this Kirby "may" have been made to look New In Box, when it was only restored, in a attempt to get more money for the cleaner & deceive the buyer. Since the cleaner has only been used a couple of times, & Fred is not a professional repairman, it is possible that once Bill Edstrom got said Kirby in his possession that he discovered mechanical defects from improper workmanship & restoration techniques. I stated above that I do believe this Kirby is New In Box, & it's condition reflects that, & I believe it, BUT unless we have seen this Kirby up close in person to examine it, as well as see a complete paper trail of this Kirby's history, it is still a distinct possibility this Kirby was made to look New In Box when it was only indeed restored, & improperly done. The other possibility here is that there has been indeed shipping damage, & Bill Edstrom decided that he wanted to keep this Kirby, & has enough parts to do the repairs properly & set it right. Perhaps it is the case that Bill didn't want to accept a full refund, only a partial refund, & there has been a error thru Ebay regarding this?? I have to think that Bill's intention here may be to reach out to Fred & negotiate a settlement privately or somehow do it thru Ebay, & set things right. Or alternatively, he intends to return the cleaner & hasn't had the chance to do so, because as he said this is a busy time of year for him.

Bottom line here? I think everyone here has been WAY too hasty in judging either party here. And really, truth be told, it is really none of our business for that matter! The ONLY REASON why this story is here is because Fred chose to put it out here. We need to all step back, be apologetic to ANYONE we have judged to be in the wrong, & let Fred & Bill resolve this matter in private. And if they so choose to let us know what settlement they reached, that is up to them to disclose that....or not.

To those members with the negative comments & attacks, you should be ashamed of yourselves for such conduct, particularly on a public forum that is supposed to be made up of mature adults! Especially when we have adolescents here that are junior members that are learning how to be be men & women, & what character & values are supposed to be, & how to conduct themselves properly in any aspect of society.

Now, let's please kindly move on & be more positive & contributory in our postings.

Rob
 
Bottom Line compactelectra

compactelectra you said "I refunded the money and asked for the machine to be returned to me" If that is true why did you choose "refund the buyer" instead of choosing "accept the return"? Attached is the exact screen shot picture of what you received from eBay and the 4 choices you had available to resolve the discrepancy are clearly identified.

The bottom line is I have no clue why you took to a public forum to bully the buyer when you choose to issue a full refund and told the buyer keeps the item...

If you want to keep up the bullying despite the choices you made as a seller on eBay, please show us the machine was not damaged in shipping. The shipping damage claim form you completed as the seller with usps, ups or fedex will reveal the truth about that as photos are needed to complete the damage process.

In closing, you and your friends have bullied the buyer and even one of your friends tried to bully me - yet you did not admit YOU told eBay to issue the buyer a full refund and told eBay to have the buyer keep the item and YOU provided no substance showing the item was not damaged. YOU have shied away from the matters of fact and choose to bully someone else for your actions and choices. So man up to your fault, stop bullying people and have your friend remove this entire post for good and man up and remove yourself from this group for ever.

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Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

My apologies in advance to the good people of VL & other venues for participating in this defamatory, libel & slanderous mess!

However, I can & will vehemently refute this utter garbage, in these two (2) treads!

I didn’t worry about opening the package right away (busy season), as it (the Kirby 519) was coming from a collector & seller, I [mistakenly] believed was respectable & should have known to have it packaged better. For that mistake of trust, I do accept responsibility!

I have received numerous items from other collectors over the last seven (7) years, with NEVER [that I can recall] an item shipped with NO PROTECTIVE PACKAGING MATERIALS inside! Until NOW!!!

Again, while I concur with chicagomike (Michael) & streakers (Steve); I am going to vehemently refute these accusations.

(Between customers & business, it took the better part of yesterday & this morning to get this all organized. Again, my apologies for it taking a few days.)



I’m sure that most all of you, [& I believe if Helen Keller were alive, she], can/could & will/would see the damages now vs. what it looked like before shipment. This includes the damages to the original box, the scratched up nozzle, scratched & bent handle tube (photo didn’t turn out when taken, the macro setting won’t focus sometimes), & the replacement brushroll from Nov. 1999, NOT 1959, like ORIGINAL would be.

She [H K} might have to “squint a bit” though!!!” ~lol~ And mind you, I have the utmost respect for her accomplishments! We have & had vision-impaired individuals in our family.

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Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

eBay has certain procedures & options, & ONLY them to follow, even when the transaction is for a: “NOT AS DESCRIBED” transaction. (SEE screenshots)

In order to get to the: “NOT AS DESCRIBED” option, eBay makes you use the “Returns” option, (worst case scenario), no matter if you go thru your purchases page or thru the Open A Case page in the Resolution Center.

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Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

Strictly guessing, maybe eBay’s Policy & Procedure “Options” are one of their (eBay) ways of finally trying to get sellers to more responsible & truthful with their (seller) listings. Forcing all issues ultimately towards a “RETURN of sorts” in worst-case scenario.

If you [Fred Nelson] had contacted me first, when I sent you the NOT AS DESCRIBED request thru eBay, this would have ALL been avoided completely.

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Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

I included in my request, my concerns with the shipping & condition, & to please advise. (SEE prior post screenshot) Here is that eBay message also:


Doesn't match description or photos

Comments

Hello Fred.

I am opening my packages this week, 4 the last month. I apologize not getting to opening them sooner.

I hate to say it; however, I am disappointed w/ this purchase. I have always thought highly of you, based on meeting & talking w/ you, as well as photos of your beautiful home & such.

The clips 4 the strapping that were used around the box, actually rubbed thru the outer box, tearing up the inner original box.

When I opened the inner original box, there was no padding/packing materials used, & thus the handle moved around, back & forth scratching up the rug nozzle.

When I took the machine/pieces out of the box to L@@K over, I see there is a stain on the lower portion of the bag, & it s kind of obvious.

Also, the brushroll is from November of 1999, NOT original.

The lower portion of the round handle tube is also dented.

The title says: Vintage Kirby 519 Like New in Original Box All Original

Your Seller Notes: Used once or twice - like new

And per your description:

...a Kirby 519 found brand new in the box. It has been run but not used for cleaning. Mainly a display unit. It is all original including bag, cord and attachments including the original box. The pictures speak for themselves...


Frankly, this is NOT what I received. And, I do not know who/whom did what part of the packaging process?!?!

I do have photos as I unpacked the purchase, (as I do on all of my purchases 4 posterity & documentation). [I have html block in messages here on eBay, & thus photos too.] If you want to see them, I can & will send them to your regular email address.

Plz advise.

TY again & hagd/n. Bill 608.373.7700
 
Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

~~~~~AND, let me be clear, the damage did NOT take place because of the shipping company, it was because of the horrible lack of PROPER packing & packaging.~~~~~

I did NOT ask for a return, not did I ask for a full refund.

Instead of “communicating,” [which in the 21st century seems to be a dying thing], [which I immediately did upon purchasing the Kirby], Fred Nelson chose NOT to!!!

Now, I don’t live on the computer, & I have a business to run, & customers to provide exceptional service to, [IMHO]; …so when I checked my account I saw a full refund, with NO RETURN, & TO KEEP THE ITEM!!!

This was the one (1) of four (4) choices that you [Fred Nelson], NOT me made on your end, in eBay, as a many time item seller.

[I had to ask eBay what the choices/options were/are for a seller in a NOT AS DESCRIBED transaction, as I had no idea what they were.]

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Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

You [Fred Nelson], at 06:13pm, on the 4th, CHOSE the 2nd option of: a FULL REUND, w/NO RETURN, KEEP THE ITEM.


Due to the problems described, when I saw this, I thought you were being a “stand-up, classy guy; accepting responsibility for the problems. [Boy was/am I sadly mistaken!!! Instead you show your true colors.]


Then, ALMOST 24 hours later 03:22pm, on the 5th, you ask me to return the item. What the… ???


Even after the refund I still provided you with thirty+ (30+) photos showing the damage & condition(s) of the Kirby.

I’ve ate at a lot of places over the years, some five star, some not so much, some many times; however, if after having bad food at one, I don’t trust them so much.

The point is: I don’t “Drink the Kool-aide.” Just because everything has been ‘hunky-dory’ in the past, doesn’t mean it is now.

Things change, some people change.

Maybe these recent transactions, with Fred Nelson:

(Hoover 115, eBay item #231841992057 [SEE feedback] & Kirby 519, eBay item #231834866591),

…were just a couple of bad shipping decisions, or a poor & misleading description in the case of this Kirby 519.

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Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

I would’ve been willing to give you the benefit of doubt had you handled this whole transaction differently. NOT anymore; again, you have shown your true colors, in my opinion.

There’s a saying about a person & their money. I don’t part easily &/or freely with it. And when I do, I expect to get what I paid for; be that a dollar or a thousand dollars.

If a meal is cold; I expect ‘them’ to do something about it; if I buy a car or TV or something else new, I expect it to be such. NOT scratched & beat up, & with parts that are forty (40) years from original, when they’re supposed to be ALL ORIGINAL!!!

I expect answers (conversation) or compensation!

I have plenty of machines to restore; I didn’t need another one. I wanted one that basically “ready-to-go,” so-to-speak.

This one will have to be taken apart, cleaned, buffed out & should have the handle tube replaced & the brushroll replaced to be 1959, ALL ORIGINAL. Even with some of my connections, good luck finding those parts “period original.”

Understand that these machines I purchase & own are intended to go into a museum or museum type setting.

They are intended to be as close to factory original as practical (or monetarily), to authenticate factual history of production. NOT guesswork!!! This was supposed be basically be “turnkey;” NOT so in its present condition.



My opinion is you feel you priced the Kirby too low, & in requesting the machine back the NEXT day, this was your chance, to maybe get more money for the Kirby or the sum of it’s parts; as you’ve reference the cord alones value.

Frankly, I don’t care at this point what the sum of its parts are; I purchased it based on YOUR description & its then current condition, NOT how I received it. PERIOD!

It is NOT now in the condition you described, nor is it all original as stated in your listing. And the dirt in the pictures of the Emtor show that it was more than “…mostly display.”

Besides that, you set the Buy-It-Now price. This seems more like ‘sellers remorse’ by asking for it back the next day!
 
Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

My belief is that most all should & will be able to see the truth here; whether it’s what they want to accept or not!

And when it’s all said & done, I like to believe, (naïve or not ~lol~), that most individuals of character will apologize to me if they’ve said (typed) something inappropriately, having NOT known the “TRUE” facts.


If you [Fred Nelson], had handled this differently, fessed up to your mistakes, then we wouldn’t be where we are now!


And my initial request to you [Fred Nelson], after these two (2) thread were posted; & web-master [Robert Seger] were notified & asked to remove the two (2) posts; will still stand, except for number eight (#8). NOW, after all this, I will give you [Fred Nelson] NO MONEY whatsoever!!!


Here is the “ALL ORIGINAL” email I sent the you [Fred Nelson], web-master [Robert Seger], etc. along with the thirty+ (30+) photos of the un-boxing of the Kirby 519:



Subj: Re: I Have Warned Everyone
Date: 03/14/16 11:42:11 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)





Hello Robert,

Please see the other two (2) emails I sent with photos & information.



1. I did NOT ask to return the machine, nor am I going to;

2. I did NOT ask for a full refund;

3. I DID ask for answers [ie: plz advise];

4. I am NOT the one who did, or allowed the horrible packing [Fred acknowledged in an email];

5. eBay gives a seller three options on a NOT AS DESCRIBED case, & Fred (NOT me) chose a full refund, & for me to keep the machine;

6. I am NOT the one who screwed this sale up completely;

7. Fred publicly & permanently, (VL forum, VCCC, emails to members, facebook, etc as applicable), apologizes, acknowledges the damage as shown in the photos & accepts responsibility for the horrible packing he allowed; as he screwed this up, & he calls me & verbally apologizes & then finally,

8. Even though I am legally under no obligation to offer any payment [this has also been confirmed with eBay], as the transaction was closed, with no return, by the seller; I will agree to pay an agreed upon, lesser amount than the $150.00, as the purchase was NOT as described.

Otherwise, I will consider pursuing the matter further, regarding the slanderous accusations made in public & private.


Of course he's (Fred) going to say it's not slanderous, he said it. ~lol~


[I have already compiled all the emails, thread printouts, eBay correspondence, original {as purchased} photos & description from the listing, etc to document this whole fiasco.]


Thank you.

Genuinely & sincerely,

Bill

a007kirbyman

608.373.7700


cc: Fred Nelson, counsel, etc. as I deem apppropriate



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
The document(s) (if any) accompanying this e-mail (as well as the original actual e-mail) contain confidential information belonging to the sender which is legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this confidential information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail and its accompanying document(s) (if any) in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the original document(s) (if any) to us. Also, you are required to destroy any electronic records or copies of such previously described e-mail, information or document(s) (if any).
 
Defamatory, Libel & Slanderous Accusations...

As for some of the comments made in these threads, let me just say, there are a few who should consider investing in mirrors.

Let me also say, there are a lot of good people who’ve left, or almost left these two clubs [VL & VCCC], because they didn’t meet the “status quo,” were “bullied,” of do/did not like “confrontation,” etc., in any way, shape or form!!!


It’s sad, (but a reality), that people are treated like that. I for one will NOT stand for that being done to me.

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