twocvbloke
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"So I tend to know a thing or two about vacuum reliabili
Can't say fairer than that...
Can't say fairer than that...
Is there a recommended time limit for Vacuum Cleaner usage ?
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sebo_fan
Well-known member
Well, all I can say is you can't beat personal experience of ACTUAL ownership. One member may slate a Dyson for what not, but unless you have real experience of a product that continues to go on and on without burning out, it is impossible to take on what others say, to agree to that point. There isn't a clear answer here, no matter what a repairer finds because, again like the upright versus cylinder theories, there are different cleaning needs per person/company/client and uses.
gsheen - you've mentioned already that you work with clean fan vacuums that burn out etc - but in a domestic setting, a clean fan vacuum cleaner isn't going to work less efficiently as a dirty fan and one has to remember specific brands that fall fowl to repairs as well as a domestic vacuum only working to set hours compared to the longer hours (and daily) hours that a commercial clean fan vacuum has to endure.
Now where I'm concerned and my experiences in jobs, the vacuums that tend to last are the Sebo BS series and the old X1/Stealth based uprights (my own parents one lasted for 15 years and has been sold to a family friend who uses it as a daily driver) I know that you've repaired them and I know that you get a lot of them - previous threads that you and I have cross over with show that you have repaired them and they're not perfect. But in my experience, I don't think there is a perfect upright vacuum cleaner in the commercial field UNLESS you choose the bigger ones with 60cm floor head sizes that do massive expansive floors in two sweeps! The better, simpler all-rounder is the Numatic Henry canister tub.
When I worked as a cleaner, the uprights that were "left to be repaired" was the Oreck XL machines. They had constant clogging problems because the fan power wasn't sufficient enough to push all dirt up the handle spine to the bag. Other problems existed with the main suction channel continually clogging up - so here's an example of a dirty fan vacuum that doesn't offer as good reliability as others, yet the XL is generally known in the UK as a "hotel vacuum" or a commercial vacuum as well as its similarly built domestic model. The companies I worked for bought the Orecks because at the time, the dust bags were cheaper to buy through a commercial agent compared to the domestic prices at the time - now I'm talking 1980's here when I was a teenager and was paid triple time to clean offices with a Numatic or an Oreck on short pile carpets and tough thick velour in conference rooms. Back in the 1980's it was impossible to buy copy dust bags for Orecks although copy bags did exist back then, they weren't available to buy as a bulk purchase for the companies I worked for.
The Orecks were eventually replaced with a whole line of Numatic Henry's - completely different machines, canister tubs with long hoses and simpler to maintain as well as use.
gsheen - you've mentioned already that you work with clean fan vacuums that burn out etc - but in a domestic setting, a clean fan vacuum cleaner isn't going to work less efficiently as a dirty fan and one has to remember specific brands that fall fowl to repairs as well as a domestic vacuum only working to set hours compared to the longer hours (and daily) hours that a commercial clean fan vacuum has to endure.
Now where I'm concerned and my experiences in jobs, the vacuums that tend to last are the Sebo BS series and the old X1/Stealth based uprights (my own parents one lasted for 15 years and has been sold to a family friend who uses it as a daily driver) I know that you've repaired them and I know that you get a lot of them - previous threads that you and I have cross over with show that you have repaired them and they're not perfect. But in my experience, I don't think there is a perfect upright vacuum cleaner in the commercial field UNLESS you choose the bigger ones with 60cm floor head sizes that do massive expansive floors in two sweeps! The better, simpler all-rounder is the Numatic Henry canister tub.
When I worked as a cleaner, the uprights that were "left to be repaired" was the Oreck XL machines. They had constant clogging problems because the fan power wasn't sufficient enough to push all dirt up the handle spine to the bag. Other problems existed with the main suction channel continually clogging up - so here's an example of a dirty fan vacuum that doesn't offer as good reliability as others, yet the XL is generally known in the UK as a "hotel vacuum" or a commercial vacuum as well as its similarly built domestic model. The companies I worked for bought the Orecks because at the time, the dust bags were cheaper to buy through a commercial agent compared to the domestic prices at the time - now I'm talking 1980's here when I was a teenager and was paid triple time to clean offices with a Numatic or an Oreck on short pile carpets and tough thick velour in conference rooms. Back in the 1980's it was impossible to buy copy dust bags for Orecks although copy bags did exist back then, they weren't available to buy as a bulk purchase for the companies I worked for.
The Orecks were eventually replaced with a whole line of Numatic Henry's - completely different machines, canister tubs with long hoses and simpler to maintain as well as use.
gsheen
Well-known member
Ok then I will add this , My Dad and i co own a cleaning company, we employ 80 cleaning staff and have over a 100+ vacuums in inventory, We clean hotels, offices factory's
sebo x1 ( x1 about 2 years and far to expensive to repair ) these are in the storeroom
370 also not reliable when fitted with the dommel motor they rarely last 1.5 years withou total meltdown taking out most of the body with them ) fit the older lamb motors from the older 360 you loose some suction but the machine can then do 3-4 years
Old 360 the best sebo often lasting 8 years
New bs ok about 3 years
Karcher uprights, 2 years
Ivacs up350 about 20( fair last about as long as a new sebo bs about 3 years ,
Numatics of various shape and form old ones good I have one that is 20 years pld and still going new ones average 2-3 years )
wetrocks bantum 6 & 9 ( uses lamb motors but they two burn out 2-3 years)
Hoover guardsman Dirty air, never had to replace a motor, I bought these when I first started 10 years ago before they pulled out of SA
Clarkes all there are 20 years old dirty air never given any trouble.
We have more but this is MY PERSONAL OWNERSHIP EXPERIENCE. As the co owner of the company I tend to keep an eye on how long the machines last
My only regret is I cannot get my hands on any more guardsman machines , I buy every one i can find second hand, funny thing they never need motors just a belt and away you go.
We also have big scrubbers those are fun to play with
sebo x1 ( x1 about 2 years and far to expensive to repair ) these are in the storeroom
370 also not reliable when fitted with the dommel motor they rarely last 1.5 years withou total meltdown taking out most of the body with them ) fit the older lamb motors from the older 360 you loose some suction but the machine can then do 3-4 years
Old 360 the best sebo often lasting 8 years
New bs ok about 3 years
Karcher uprights, 2 years
Ivacs up350 about 20( fair last about as long as a new sebo bs about 3 years ,
Numatics of various shape and form old ones good I have one that is 20 years pld and still going new ones average 2-3 years )
wetrocks bantum 6 & 9 ( uses lamb motors but they two burn out 2-3 years)
Hoover guardsman Dirty air, never had to replace a motor, I bought these when I first started 10 years ago before they pulled out of SA
Clarkes all there are 20 years old dirty air never given any trouble.
We have more but this is MY PERSONAL OWNERSHIP EXPERIENCE. As the co owner of the company I tend to keep an eye on how long the machines last
My only regret is I cannot get my hands on any more guardsman machines , I buy every one i can find second hand, funny thing they never need motors just a belt and away you go.
We also have big scrubbers those are fun to play with
sebo_fan
Well-known member
I used to use the ride on Taski machines - they were a lot of fun!
Where Guardsman is concerned, could you not ship some over from the U.S and just change the voltage?
Where Guardsman is concerned, could you not ship some over from the U.S and just change the voltage?
sebo_fan
Well-known member
BTW how is your Felix getting on?
gsheen
Well-known member
I have one taski swingo ride on , its nice to use, we also have a tennant t20 that runs on lpg, that thing is great but cost more than a BMW 540i new.
I don't use the felix in the business Its in the shop as a show model, ametek motor does well, what I don't like is how the machine smells after a few uses, I used it at home for a bit, we have pets and it got that Miele smell to it.
I forgot to add to that list the 5 g 1 sebo's we have, those are nice but they are only a few months old now.
I did import two from the USA and fitted new 220v motors but its two expensive. I really wish we got sanitairs here again. I have used one and they are great. You cannot find them second-hand here.
I don't use the felix in the business Its in the shop as a show model, ametek motor does well, what I don't like is how the machine smells after a few uses, I used it at home for a bit, we have pets and it got that Miele smell to it.
I forgot to add to that list the 5 g 1 sebo's we have, those are nice but they are only a few months old now.
I did import two from the USA and fitted new 220v motors but its two expensive. I really wish we got sanitairs here again. I have used one and they are great. You cannot find them second-hand here.
twocvbloke
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"Well, all I can say is you can't beat personal expe
Not really, add knowledge of what you're using and the physics of what goes on to the mix, and you might have a point, but without it, you're just trolling to bump up your post count...
For example, a clean-air motor in a domestic situation where someone fills bags to bursting, and only buys cheap generics, then the fine particles of dust that get through to the motor will end up sandblasting the motor windings, and I'm sure you must have seen the effects of sandblasting stone walls and metal panels, so, this in turn erodes the enamel off the wires, and reduced airflow causes the motor to heat up, weaken the enamel that's left on the wire, and eventually, you have a short-circuit, motor burns out and it's game over...
In a dirty-fan motor, you have the separate cooling fan that is only for clean air, so you don't have the fine dust going through the motor (as that's the only way for most clean air motors to vent through), regardless of the state of the bags/filters or what you're picking up, so the motors last longer as they're not being eroded away, and are constantly cooled, yeah they end up with a build-up of dust over the years, but it isn't enough to cause the enamel to be worn away, so they will last longer before they end up burning out (if at all)...
And there's also the bearings, dirty-fan motors run at much lower RPMs, so the bearings last a lot longer, even with belt tension applied, whereas your average single-stage clean-air motor in a cheap upright has to deal with both the belts and the airflow, and the high RPMs, the bearings will wear out sooner, so that is another cause of death for the clean-air...
Yeah, in a perfect "clean room" test environment, they're going to last hundreds of hours at a constant rate of use under the same conditions, but in a domestic or commercial environment, they're subject to all kinds of variables (temperature, hours used, maintenance, treatment of the machine, etc.) which change according to the user and environment they're kept in, so some will last longer than others. Even identical brands, one may keep working for 10 years, the other may fail after 1 year, so the only real way to show which would last longer is to have an understanding of the physics that goes on inside the average vacuum cleaner, and apply said knowledge to figure it out to formulate an answer that is both reasonable and intelligent...
Actual ownership means very little when knowledge of the field you're discussing is applied...
It's like science, there is no hard fact in science, what happens for one person in a laboratory may not happen for another, due to all kinds of variables, so they can't say "This is what substance A does and will always do it", because that's THEIR experience, and unless they can prove it is such with all the variables included, then it is not fact, it's just their experience, and cannot be claimed as gospel...
So, now you know that, shall we continue the blind ignorance, or shall we just leave it there?
Not really, add knowledge of what you're using and the physics of what goes on to the mix, and you might have a point, but without it, you're just trolling to bump up your post count...
For example, a clean-air motor in a domestic situation where someone fills bags to bursting, and only buys cheap generics, then the fine particles of dust that get through to the motor will end up sandblasting the motor windings, and I'm sure you must have seen the effects of sandblasting stone walls and metal panels, so, this in turn erodes the enamel off the wires, and reduced airflow causes the motor to heat up, weaken the enamel that's left on the wire, and eventually, you have a short-circuit, motor burns out and it's game over...
In a dirty-fan motor, you have the separate cooling fan that is only for clean air, so you don't have the fine dust going through the motor (as that's the only way for most clean air motors to vent through), regardless of the state of the bags/filters or what you're picking up, so the motors last longer as they're not being eroded away, and are constantly cooled, yeah they end up with a build-up of dust over the years, but it isn't enough to cause the enamel to be worn away, so they will last longer before they end up burning out (if at all)...
And there's also the bearings, dirty-fan motors run at much lower RPMs, so the bearings last a lot longer, even with belt tension applied, whereas your average single-stage clean-air motor in a cheap upright has to deal with both the belts and the airflow, and the high RPMs, the bearings will wear out sooner, so that is another cause of death for the clean-air...
Yeah, in a perfect "clean room" test environment, they're going to last hundreds of hours at a constant rate of use under the same conditions, but in a domestic or commercial environment, they're subject to all kinds of variables (temperature, hours used, maintenance, treatment of the machine, etc.) which change according to the user and environment they're kept in, so some will last longer than others. Even identical brands, one may keep working for 10 years, the other may fail after 1 year, so the only real way to show which would last longer is to have an understanding of the physics that goes on inside the average vacuum cleaner, and apply said knowledge to figure it out to formulate an answer that is both reasonable and intelligent...
Actual ownership means very little when knowledge of the field you're discussing is applied...
It's like science, there is no hard fact in science, what happens for one person in a laboratory may not happen for another, due to all kinds of variables, so they can't say "This is what substance A does and will always do it", because that's THEIR experience, and unless they can prove it is such with all the variables included, then it is not fact, it's just their experience, and cannot be claimed as gospel...
So, now you know that, shall we continue the blind ignorance, or shall we just leave it there?
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Who is we? If actual ownership means very little knowledge, what was the point of this initial posting? Was it to collect theories, personal experiences or just not say very much to offer up different viewpoints?
Science uses many variables and where applicable for testing theories etc, science does actually have facts, but they also have assumptions. If a doctor gives you medicine that they assume will make you better and it does, science in this instance offers a fact based on an assumption.
I wouldn't say that the machines I used and observed were used in a "controlled" environment. Not in the hands of less experienced cleaners who are dragging uprights up and down stairs thus damaging the base/floor heads by not lifting them up properly by the carry handle, or pulling on the cord to release the plug because they're too tired to walk over and remove the plug from the mains socket.
Controlled to me says a testing laboratory like those that consumer testers use, like Which or even own brand's labs like Miele or Dyson. Miele well may claim for example that their cord rewind functions continuously rewind back each time fully into their canisters/cylinders when the pedal is pressed, but if you watch their videos, it doesn't go as far enough to test a vacuum if it is in a different position such as on stairs when the pedal is pressed, or at a different angle. I know from my own experience then that sometimes even the cord rewind on the back of my Miele machines don't always return in the way Miele claim. THUS personal experience here is different to manufacturer claim.
This is exactly the same as suggesting that clean air vacuums are less efficient/can't run for as many hours as dirty fan vacuums - on here it seems gsheen's experience of clean air vacuums seem to be in a multitude of repair states, but then they've are commercial units that have probably seen a lot of abuse at different stages, and a lot more abuse than is used in a domestic environments. I accept HIS experience but I don't take it as GOSPEL.
In this instance, there are other variables that go in tandem LEADING to the motors being burnt out. However, as you outline in saying "...In a dirty-fan motor, you have the separate cooling fan that is only for clean air, so you don't have the fine dust going through the motor.." is a little bit confusing - if you were to take a Hoover Junior as a skeleton example, dust does go through the fan and is liable to break or damage, same as the dirty fan on an Oreck and other brands. Clean fan doesn't have any of that - so in the actual process of working, dirty fan systems should get damaged more easily compared to Clean Fan that keeps the dirt away from the fan system and just flows through a suction channel towards the dust bag.
Science uses many variables and where applicable for testing theories etc, science does actually have facts, but they also have assumptions. If a doctor gives you medicine that they assume will make you better and it does, science in this instance offers a fact based on an assumption.
I wouldn't say that the machines I used and observed were used in a "controlled" environment. Not in the hands of less experienced cleaners who are dragging uprights up and down stairs thus damaging the base/floor heads by not lifting them up properly by the carry handle, or pulling on the cord to release the plug because they're too tired to walk over and remove the plug from the mains socket.
Controlled to me says a testing laboratory like those that consumer testers use, like Which or even own brand's labs like Miele or Dyson. Miele well may claim for example that their cord rewind functions continuously rewind back each time fully into their canisters/cylinders when the pedal is pressed, but if you watch their videos, it doesn't go as far enough to test a vacuum if it is in a different position such as on stairs when the pedal is pressed, or at a different angle. I know from my own experience then that sometimes even the cord rewind on the back of my Miele machines don't always return in the way Miele claim. THUS personal experience here is different to manufacturer claim.
This is exactly the same as suggesting that clean air vacuums are less efficient/can't run for as many hours as dirty fan vacuums - on here it seems gsheen's experience of clean air vacuums seem to be in a multitude of repair states, but then they've are commercial units that have probably seen a lot of abuse at different stages, and a lot more abuse than is used in a domestic environments. I accept HIS experience but I don't take it as GOSPEL.
In this instance, there are other variables that go in tandem LEADING to the motors being burnt out. However, as you outline in saying "...In a dirty-fan motor, you have the separate cooling fan that is only for clean air, so you don't have the fine dust going through the motor.." is a little bit confusing - if you were to take a Hoover Junior as a skeleton example, dust does go through the fan and is liable to break or damage, same as the dirty fan on an Oreck and other brands. Clean fan doesn't have any of that - so in the actual process of working, dirty fan systems should get damaged more easily compared to Clean Fan that keeps the dirt away from the fan system and just flows through a suction channel towards the dust bag.
twocvbloke
Well-known member
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"is a little bit confusing"
No it isn't, you just don't understand it...
As you say, taking a Junior as the basis for this, yes, dirt goes through the main fan, well done for being observant. But, what you're missing is that the air that goes through the motor is not part of the dust path, it is separate, the air is brought through by a separate and unrelated to the dirt path fan, and therefore it is not behind the filters and bags, and therefore the sandblasting effect is not as significant as in a clean air motor...
If you've ever actually taken a well-used clean air motor apart, you'll know that there is usually a coating of fine dust all over the fins, the armature and the windings, thus demonstrating my point, fine dirt from what you pick up in a clean-air vac will get through the bags and filters, and then will bombard the motor, causing damage by eroding the enamel off the motor's windings, causing the motor to eventually short out...
The point I'm trying to get across to you is your lack of understanding of how a motor is assembled and how the air flows through, a clean air has all the air it draws up through the nozzle of a vacuum through itself and out the exhaust in one continuous line, but a dirty fan motor has two separate lines of airflow, one through the dirty fan through to the bag and out through however it exhausts, one through the cooling fan attached to the armature which vents out the side or top of the vac, the cooling fan does not pick up the dirt from the floor, and no matter what the state of the bag, the dirty-fan motor's cooling is not compromised by how full or empty the bag is and therefore does not suffer in the same manner as a clean air motor...
Also, as I've mentioned already, a clean air motor runs at much higher RPMs and use more power, thus they generate more heat, whereas a dirty fan motor runs at much lower RPMs using a lot less power (think 250 Watt Dirty-Fan Hoover Junior vs. an 800 Watt Clean-Air Electrolux Z1185e), and thus generates less heat, which reduces the damage to the enamelled wiring preventing failure...
So, there you have it, the most simple, adult explanation of how these two types of motors work, and why one can outlast the other, the next step is infant school multi-coloured pictures, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to feel like you're being treat like a child in school...
I won't even go into bypass motors, it'll blow your mind, pardon the pun...
No it isn't, you just don't understand it...
As you say, taking a Junior as the basis for this, yes, dirt goes through the main fan, well done for being observant. But, what you're missing is that the air that goes through the motor is not part of the dust path, it is separate, the air is brought through by a separate and unrelated to the dirt path fan, and therefore it is not behind the filters and bags, and therefore the sandblasting effect is not as significant as in a clean air motor...
If you've ever actually taken a well-used clean air motor apart, you'll know that there is usually a coating of fine dust all over the fins, the armature and the windings, thus demonstrating my point, fine dirt from what you pick up in a clean-air vac will get through the bags and filters, and then will bombard the motor, causing damage by eroding the enamel off the motor's windings, causing the motor to eventually short out...
The point I'm trying to get across to you is your lack of understanding of how a motor is assembled and how the air flows through, a clean air has all the air it draws up through the nozzle of a vacuum through itself and out the exhaust in one continuous line, but a dirty fan motor has two separate lines of airflow, one through the dirty fan through to the bag and out through however it exhausts, one through the cooling fan attached to the armature which vents out the side or top of the vac, the cooling fan does not pick up the dirt from the floor, and no matter what the state of the bag, the dirty-fan motor's cooling is not compromised by how full or empty the bag is and therefore does not suffer in the same manner as a clean air motor...
Also, as I've mentioned already, a clean air motor runs at much higher RPMs and use more power, thus they generate more heat, whereas a dirty fan motor runs at much lower RPMs using a lot less power (think 250 Watt Dirty-Fan Hoover Junior vs. an 800 Watt Clean-Air Electrolux Z1185e), and thus generates less heat, which reduces the damage to the enamelled wiring preventing failure...
So, there you have it, the most simple, adult explanation of how these two types of motors work, and why one can outlast the other, the next step is infant school multi-coloured pictures, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to feel like you're being treat like a child in school...
I won't even go into bypass motors, it'll blow your mind, pardon the pun...
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
A by-pass motor is merely a hybrid of the two styles. In its simplest form one could say it is a high wattage dirty fan motor, onto which one or two sets of clean fans are fitted, and the set up with the dust bag and filters is identical to that of a clean fan vacuum. These are used mostly on wet & dry cleaners, so that if water is picked up by the motor, it is ejected out of the side of the fan unit and not blown over the motor. The suction fans are totally sealed from the motor and a separate cooling fan is used to cool the motor, all of which is identical in principal to your ordinary low wattage dirty fan upright motor.
When I said mostly used on wet & dry, there was a Goblin cylinder, the 702 I think, which used a bypass motor, but that was dry only cleaner, so I don't know what the thinking behind that one was.
When I said mostly used on wet & dry, there was a Goblin cylinder, the 702 I think, which used a bypass motor, but that was dry only cleaner, so I don't know what the thinking behind that one was.
floor-a-matic
Well-known member
Most vacs these days have motor overload protection; when its activated, the user must wait at least 30 minutes for the motor to cool down.
gsheen
Well-known member
the problem is that in most vacuums by the time that over load has kicked in the damage is done. Most of them kick in when the motor has already blown to prevent total melt down and heavy lawsuits
I know that this thread is old. Now it makes most sense that if you don't take care of your clean air vacuum the motor will wear out, like one mentioned the clogged filter will make the motor spin much faster and lead to bearing failure and the broken bag will sand blast the windings. BUT I have many old Nilfisks that are OLD and every one of them run and run and run. I have an old Electrolux that is still running. it is the way someone cares for the vacuum as a car. All the old vacuums mostly were through flow motors and still run. the clean air motors you are referring to are most likely the single stage ones running at 45000 rpm. they hurt my ears and they last for maybe 500 hours. I have a Bissell with one and after 6 months of normal use I can hear the bearings starting to grind. The Nilfisk GA/GS series only runs at 12,000 RPM the old Rainbows about the same. Lambs run at 28,000 and they last much longer than the single stage units. the dirty air motors need less maintenance regarding bags and all. As far as time of use. Nilfisk calls their GM/GS/GA series and their CFM single phase or universal motor vacuums intermittent duty and their induction motor 3 phase units continuous duty. They use the wrong term. I call it "duty rated" if you need to vacuum a house and it takes 2 hours, it will run with no problem, if you need to vacuum a small area and it takes 5 minutes no problem. there are consumables on universal motors and to run them continuous would work till the brushes wear out but to run a vacuum like a Nilfisk or an old Electrolux for three or four hours won't burn them out. In the USA the term "continuous duty" is three hours or more.
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