hi-loswitch98
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Haha yes, that was my reply to that thread, I've posted quite a few more replies to people thinking that on the first they have to chuck out their cleaners!
I'm on the radio again
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sensotronic
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I only read one page, before I got angry. It was the bit about washing machines and dishwashers being next that did it. Do people not realise that larger white goods have had an energy label for years, resulting in more efficient appliances that still wash clothes and dishes to an A or above standard.
I think that once all this dies down, manufacturers will be looking at how to improve their ratings for performance, noise levels and dust emissions etc, because that will matter more to consumers than how much electricity it uses. The majority of the 'new' Hoover ranges are mediocre at best, with only Vax and Dyson producing some A performance rated cleaners. I am very eager to see how Sebo models rate, but if it's poor, it won't effect my views on their models based on personal experience.
I think that once all this dies down, manufacturers will be looking at how to improve their ratings for performance, noise levels and dust emissions etc, because that will matter more to consumers than how much electricity it uses. The majority of the 'new' Hoover ranges are mediocre at best, with only Vax and Dyson producing some A performance rated cleaners. I am very eager to see how Sebo models rate, but if it's poor, it won't effect my views on their models based on personal experience.
suctionselector
Well-known member
Yes
I'm sure I read some comment somewhere on selling them second hand, which you can still do, though why you'd want to buy one second hand anyway?
I'm sure I read some comment somewhere on selling them second hand, which you can still do, though why you'd want to buy one second hand anyway?
DesertTortoise
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It is surprising to me that so many do not consider a canister vac to be a good tool for vacuuming carpet. It is also surprising that so many canisters, at least in the UK, do not come with a good powered floor brush. At least that seems to be the claim. High powered canister vacs with powered floor brushes have been ubiquitous on US and Japanese made canister vacuums for many decades.
I have a hard time accepting the frequent opinion, absent some data, that an upright will always and necessarily outclean a canister with a powered floor brush on carpet. It strikes me that the evolution to what you call "clean air" motors is a result of the superiority of canister vac motors to those traditionally used in uprights in terms of suction and airflow. An unpowered floor tool is going to be a poor choice on carpets, of course, but why the seeming assumption that this is the only choice with a canister vac? It is not. The UK is not the only market for vacuums.
I would like to see some testing where measured amounts of dirt are placed on each of several lanes on clean new carpet and a selection of vacuums, both upright and canister, are afforded an equal number of passes over the same measured quantity of dirt in their lane, followed by weighing how much dirt the vacs actually picked up. You could weigh each bag before and after the allowed number of passes to normalize for different weight bags and for dirt that might stay in the bag were you to try dumping the bag's contents and weighing that. That is what I mean by having some data to back the claims made here. Without test data like this which quantifies the amount of dirt a particular vacuum removes from carpet under controlled conditions you do not have a valid claim to anything. All you have are opinions. If saying that antagonizes someone then so be it. I am not disposed to let opinion be passed along as fact
I have a hard time accepting the frequent opinion, absent some data, that an upright will always and necessarily outclean a canister with a powered floor brush on carpet. It strikes me that the evolution to what you call "clean air" motors is a result of the superiority of canister vac motors to those traditionally used in uprights in terms of suction and airflow. An unpowered floor tool is going to be a poor choice on carpets, of course, but why the seeming assumption that this is the only choice with a canister vac? It is not. The UK is not the only market for vacuums.
I would like to see some testing where measured amounts of dirt are placed on each of several lanes on clean new carpet and a selection of vacuums, both upright and canister, are afforded an equal number of passes over the same measured quantity of dirt in their lane, followed by weighing how much dirt the vacs actually picked up. You could weigh each bag before and after the allowed number of passes to normalize for different weight bags and for dirt that might stay in the bag were you to try dumping the bag's contents and weighing that. That is what I mean by having some data to back the claims made here. Without test data like this which quantifies the amount of dirt a particular vacuum removes from carpet under controlled conditions you do not have a valid claim to anything. All you have are opinions. If saying that antagonizes someone then so be it. I am not disposed to let opinion be passed along as fact
suctionselector
Well-known member
Well
I would like to see £1million in front of me but that's very unlikely to happen.
"I am not disposed to let opinion be passed along as fact" Well does that imply that we forum members should just ignore your opinions?
Oh and regards to cylinder heads, we were talking about ones that are not as good as others. Most floor tools are brilliant for the job.
I would like to see £1million in front of me but that's very unlikely to happen.
"I am not disposed to let opinion be passed along as fact" Well does that imply that we forum members should just ignore your opinions?
Oh and regards to cylinder heads, we were talking about ones that are not as good as others. Most floor tools are brilliant for the job.
Gr8DaneDad
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Having lived in Ireland, France and Germany for a total of 9 years, I can assure you, D-T, that the vast majority of cylinder/tank vacs offered in the EU do not come with powered nozzles, even as an available option, except in Germany where Miele, Bosch and Sebo all offer optional powered nozzles at a significant price premium on the top of the range machines. The only PN I ever saw in Ireland was on a Henry and in France on 1 AEG/Electrolux and as an option from Sebo and Miele and even then they were special order and not available for immediate delivery. The rest of the world isn't anything like Canada, the USA or Japan where PN's are de rigeur, they are rare beasts indeed and nearly extinct.
On the upright vs. cylinder comparison, in general terms you are correct, there are cylinders that are more than capable of deep cleaning carpeting. However, you will also pay significantly more for the the same level of carpet cleaning with a cylinder and the number of less expensive but competent uprights is much greater. On the plus side, you generally get significantly better above the floor cleaning with the cylinder, but that gap has closed considerably in the last 20 years and continues to move in that direction.
I too love data, and may be I'll go get a nice sized remnant and do a little testing. I have many cylinders but only 3 uprights and 2 of those are basically the same machine with only one difference, the existence of a head light on one and it's absence on the other.
On the upright vs. cylinder comparison, in general terms you are correct, there are cylinders that are more than capable of deep cleaning carpeting. However, you will also pay significantly more for the the same level of carpet cleaning with a cylinder and the number of less expensive but competent uprights is much greater. On the plus side, you generally get significantly better above the floor cleaning with the cylinder, but that gap has closed considerably in the last 20 years and continues to move in that direction.
I too love data, and may be I'll go get a nice sized remnant and do a little testing. I have many cylinders but only 3 uprights and 2 of those are basically the same machine with only one difference, the existence of a head light on one and it's absence on the other.
turbo500
Well-known member
All you have are opinions
Likewise, DT, the same applies to you. Where are you stats that cylinder's with powerheads out-clean uprights?
At no point did I say that an upright would out-clean a cylinder with a PN. Once again, you are injecting your opinion into a conversation about a market that you know nothing about. Powerhead cylinders have never been popular here. Traditionally, there would be only 1 such cleaner in a whole range and they were always the most expensive and considerably more expensive than the upright equivalent, so people just stuck with either an upright or a straight suction cylinder. Between the 2, by default, the upright will out-clean because of the brushroll.
The move from dirty fan to clean air had nothing to with cylinders being superior. It was a gradual move in both the UK and US and was purely a convenience factor - clean air uprights gave better hose suction, and the consumers wanted the convenience of on-board tools. It gave the best of both worlds in an upright form, just like PN cylinders give the best of both worlds in cylinder form. I still firmly believe that dirty fan cleaners gave far better carpet pick up, but hard floor and hose suction was abysmal. The growing demand for more convenience coupled with the move to more homes having a wider mix of floortypes rendered them redundant.
Likewise, DT, the same applies to you. Where are you stats that cylinder's with powerheads out-clean uprights?
At no point did I say that an upright would out-clean a cylinder with a PN. Once again, you are injecting your opinion into a conversation about a market that you know nothing about. Powerhead cylinders have never been popular here. Traditionally, there would be only 1 such cleaner in a whole range and they were always the most expensive and considerably more expensive than the upright equivalent, so people just stuck with either an upright or a straight suction cylinder. Between the 2, by default, the upright will out-clean because of the brushroll.
The move from dirty fan to clean air had nothing to with cylinders being superior. It was a gradual move in both the UK and US and was purely a convenience factor - clean air uprights gave better hose suction, and the consumers wanted the convenience of on-board tools. It gave the best of both worlds in an upright form, just like PN cylinders give the best of both worlds in cylinder form. I still firmly believe that dirty fan cleaners gave far better carpet pick up, but hard floor and hose suction was abysmal. The growing demand for more convenience coupled with the move to more homes having a wider mix of floortypes rendered them redundant.
turbo500
Well-known member
Thoth, I'm hunting for a link that details all of the legislation for you, but here is the gist of it:
In recent years, there has been a lot of marketing focus on motor wattage and this has rubbed off on the vacuum buying public thinking that the higher the motor power, the better the cleaning. It's meaning that we're ending up with a lot of 2000w+ machines that run very hot, with cheap filters that clog up and cause the machines to overheat and burn out within a few years. Not only are these machines drinking electricity like it's cola, there is also a cost to get rid of it once it's broken to the local council.
- vacuum's will be limited to 1600w max by September 14 and 900w max by September 2017
- all vacuum's will include a ratings sticker, giving an A-G rating for carpet pick up, hard floor pick up, dust emissions, noise and energy.
Some of our most popular cleaners including Dyson and Numatic (Henry/Hetty et al) already meet the regulations, but both companies are doing research to get the motor wattage even lower. Numatic, for example, have developed a 580w motor that generates 10% more suction than the old style 1200w motor.
It's a move that will hopefully result in less powerful, more reliable and more efficient cleaners. It's forcing manufacturers to really look at there design and find new ways of generating high performance with a lower powered motor. As has been proven many times before, this isn't a difficult thing to do. As I mentioned above, there were plenty of vacuums around in the late 80's/early 90's which would easily fit in with todays legislation and perform incredibly well.
Edit: link attached with more details.
http://https//blogs.ec.europa.eu/rebuttal/consumer-will-get-better-vacuum-cleaners-ever
In recent years, there has been a lot of marketing focus on motor wattage and this has rubbed off on the vacuum buying public thinking that the higher the motor power, the better the cleaning. It's meaning that we're ending up with a lot of 2000w+ machines that run very hot, with cheap filters that clog up and cause the machines to overheat and burn out within a few years. Not only are these machines drinking electricity like it's cola, there is also a cost to get rid of it once it's broken to the local council.
- vacuum's will be limited to 1600w max by September 14 and 900w max by September 2017
- all vacuum's will include a ratings sticker, giving an A-G rating for carpet pick up, hard floor pick up, dust emissions, noise and energy.
Some of our most popular cleaners including Dyson and Numatic (Henry/Hetty et al) already meet the regulations, but both companies are doing research to get the motor wattage even lower. Numatic, for example, have developed a 580w motor that generates 10% more suction than the old style 1200w motor.
It's a move that will hopefully result in less powerful, more reliable and more efficient cleaners. It's forcing manufacturers to really look at there design and find new ways of generating high performance with a lower powered motor. As has been proven many times before, this isn't a difficult thing to do. As I mentioned above, there were plenty of vacuums around in the late 80's/early 90's which would easily fit in with todays legislation and perform incredibly well.
Edit: link attached with more details.
http://https//blogs.ec.europa.eu/rebuttal/consumer-will-get-better-vacuum-cleaners-ever
DesertTortoise
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You said it for me Turbo500. Clean air uprights have better hose suction. Exactly. Thank you. Before clearn air motors were adapted to uprights you had to have a canister vac to get decent hose suction. Am I right?
sebo_fan
Well-known member
DT: In your response to why you think many do not consider a canister vac as a good tool for vacuuming carpet, it is because cylinder vacs have always been sold as an idea for being "lighter to lift for above the floor cleaning." It isn't that light if you have a heavy power nozzle jammed onto the end of it!
Thus, in turn a cylinder vacuum cleaner with a power nozzle goes against the design element of something lighter than an upright vacuum cleaner, which is traditionally heavier.
Look at the amount of full size uprights on the market that have no brush bar.
Can you think of any? I can't. So why, should one consider a canister with a PN head over an upright to clean carpets?
Thus, in turn a cylinder vacuum cleaner with a power nozzle goes against the design element of something lighter than an upright vacuum cleaner, which is traditionally heavier.
Look at the amount of full size uprights on the market that have no brush bar.
Can you think of any? I can't. So why, should one consider a canister with a PN head over an upright to clean carpets?
turbo500
Well-known member
That's quite true, DT. Although nobody bothered having 2 cleaners - that would get expensive. The hose suction was always acceptable for dusting and picking up surface litter fairly easily, but no where near as strong as the suction on a clean air machine.
However, I still firmly believe that dirty fan uprights were far better carpet cleaners, especially on thick carpeting that wasn't glued down as the airflow could pass right up through the underlay and through the carpet fibers.
The adaptation of the upright design with the brushroll combined with the clean air set up of the cylinder was the happy medium. As Sebo_Fan has pointed out, cylinders were marketed here as being lightweight and designed more for the difficult to reach areas or smaller homes and apartments. Uprights have mostly always dominated the market here, which is the opposite to most of mainland Europe where the market is 80% straight suction cylinders.
However, I still firmly believe that dirty fan uprights were far better carpet cleaners, especially on thick carpeting that wasn't glued down as the airflow could pass right up through the underlay and through the carpet fibers.
The adaptation of the upright design with the brushroll combined with the clean air set up of the cylinder was the happy medium. As Sebo_Fan has pointed out, cylinders were marketed here as being lightweight and designed more for the difficult to reach areas or smaller homes and apartments. Uprights have mostly always dominated the market here, which is the opposite to most of mainland Europe where the market is 80% straight suction cylinders.
Turbo500, thanks for posting info about the legislation.
I'm kind of stricken about it. It's like it's more of a reaction to bad marketing, the idea of more power being better, and then it's trying to continue shifting the burden of lowering our energy usage to consumers which is basically deflection from the by far major energy users and emissions creators, corps.
And then a rating system... Are they going to have a rating for energy and a different one for performance? Putting them together...seems like a terrible idea. I don't care about my power usage from a vacuum cleaner, it's marginal. Doubt it's even $5 a year. 2 hours of vacuuming a month with a 2000W vacuum cleaner at 10 cents a kWh is almost $5 per year. roflmao. http://energyusecalculator.com/electricity_vacuum.htm
Not to mention, the real issue here. Corps don't want to make great vacuum cleaners that are super reliable and well priced. Same with most technology, we end up with technology designed to fail, and there's such a slow pace of progress you have to look at it on a decade scale to see what's been achieved!
Will this really give consumers better vacuum cleaners? I would be pleasantly surprised. As with most regulations and rating systems, it costs money, and that cost will probably be largely passed on to the consumer so...if anything, I expect the price of vacuums to rise a bit.
I'm kind of stricken about it. It's like it's more of a reaction to bad marketing, the idea of more power being better, and then it's trying to continue shifting the burden of lowering our energy usage to consumers which is basically deflection from the by far major energy users and emissions creators, corps.
And then a rating system... Are they going to have a rating for energy and a different one for performance? Putting them together...seems like a terrible idea. I don't care about my power usage from a vacuum cleaner, it's marginal. Doubt it's even $5 a year. 2 hours of vacuuming a month with a 2000W vacuum cleaner at 10 cents a kWh is almost $5 per year. roflmao. http://energyusecalculator.com/electricity_vacuum.htm
Not to mention, the real issue here. Corps don't want to make great vacuum cleaners that are super reliable and well priced. Same with most technology, we end up with technology designed to fail, and there's such a slow pace of progress you have to look at it on a decade scale to see what's been achieved!
Will this really give consumers better vacuum cleaners? I would be pleasantly surprised. As with most regulations and rating systems, it costs money, and that cost will probably be largely passed on to the consumer so...if anything, I expect the price of vacuums to rise a bit.
turbo500
Well-known member
Thoth, this really won't affect the US market - it's European Union only.
I believe it will make things better for the customer. Whilst prices may increase, it will make things a lot clearer for the customer when it comes to buying a new machine.
Yes, energy and performance will both be measured and may differ. Currently, there are only Dyson and Vax with A ratings across the board. However, a similar ratings system was rolled out with washing machines in the late 90's and it took a few years for washing machine manufacturers to find the balance. Now, most machines are A rated for wash performance and energy.
I believe it will make things better for the customer. Whilst prices may increase, it will make things a lot clearer for the customer when it comes to buying a new machine.
Yes, energy and performance will both be measured and may differ. Currently, there are only Dyson and Vax with A ratings across the board. However, a similar ratings system was rolled out with washing machines in the late 90's and it took a few years for washing machine manufacturers to find the balance. Now, most machines are A rated for wash performance and energy.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Things won't be clearer though...
Sadly I don't think things will be clearer though, Chris.
Thoth - Brands are already over pricing models in the UK with the "new" Eco led vacuums for the EU law. Some are falling in price such as those from Hoover Europe.
The labels themselves dont do the vacuum models any justice. You might get one that has been rated "A" for overall efficiency but dependent on what it comes with, it might get a C rating for carpet performance, even if it is an upright vacuum cleaner that we all know will be better at carpet pick up than a suction only vacuum cleaner.
It will be confusing to buyers who think they are buying the best - or what they can afford - only to perhaps realise by trusting in the label attached to the machine - that perhaps their favoured choice isn't so leading for carpet cleaning after all (or other aspects of performance such as hard floor pick up and filtration).
Sadly I don't think things will be clearer though, Chris.
Thoth - Brands are already over pricing models in the UK with the "new" Eco led vacuums for the EU law. Some are falling in price such as those from Hoover Europe.
The labels themselves dont do the vacuum models any justice. You might get one that has been rated "A" for overall efficiency but dependent on what it comes with, it might get a C rating for carpet performance, even if it is an upright vacuum cleaner that we all know will be better at carpet pick up than a suction only vacuum cleaner.
It will be confusing to buyers who think they are buying the best - or what they can afford - only to perhaps realise by trusting in the label attached to the machine - that perhaps their favoured choice isn't so leading for carpet cleaning after all (or other aspects of performance such as hard floor pick up and filtration).
DesertTortoise
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Sebo_Fan, go back and re-read your statement regarding canister vacs. Ask yourself who in their right mind does above floor cleaning with the floor brush of their canister. Nobody. You disconnect it, set aside and use a hand tool, at which point the canister is the lighter vacuum with the better suction for above floor work than an upright. Uprights are no fun on stairs either, even with a turbo brush.
For vacuuming carpet, the powered floor brush is a good deal lighter and less tiring to push around than an upright. You don't move the whole weight of the canister, Sebo_Fan, just the wand and floor brush. The hose weighs next to nothing. The vacuum stays put, you only move the floor brush and wand. Vacuuming hard floors? Again lighter, just the weight of the wand and the hard floor brush.
For vacuuming carpet, the powered floor brush is a good deal lighter and less tiring to push around than an upright. You don't move the whole weight of the canister, Sebo_Fan, just the wand and floor brush. The hose weighs next to nothing. The vacuum stays put, you only move the floor brush and wand. Vacuuming hard floors? Again lighter, just the weight of the wand and the hard floor brush.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Open your eyes, DT.
Who in their right mind thinks every canister with every power nozzle has the same weight? Clearly you do!
Are you also trying to tell me that my SEBO K3 which by body weight alone weighs 5.5kg PLUS the 2.4kg ET-1 floor head at the bottom of the tube is lighter than pushing a SEBO Felix at nearly 7kg total weight?
The SEBO K3 Premium would appear to nearly weigh 1kg more in weight. Oh yes, the cylinder vac pays dividends when the main head is taken off. Oh yes you have a much lighter hose, but then you can buy a hose that has twice as much length and use that on an upright. Not much of a difference there in my opinion.
Of course what you seem to forget is that in the UK we don't have cylinder vacs with PN heads unless you buy in from SEBO and only recently Miele are offering a power nozzle floor head.
In your opinion you think an upright with a turbo brush is no comparison to a cylinder. I think differently - again it comes down to weight and usage of particular brands and the tools on offer.
You preach on about being an engineer, yet you're not able to clearly widen your view that brands and models do things differently per type of vacuum cleaner.
However, end of the day UK buyers don't tend to buy a lot of cylinder vacuums because we've only had cylinders with suction only floor heads or air driven turbo brushes. We've been led to believe that uprights are best - helped by Hoover from the U.S "back in the day" and other established brands.
Who in their right mind thinks every canister with every power nozzle has the same weight? Clearly you do!
Are you also trying to tell me that my SEBO K3 which by body weight alone weighs 5.5kg PLUS the 2.4kg ET-1 floor head at the bottom of the tube is lighter than pushing a SEBO Felix at nearly 7kg total weight?
The SEBO K3 Premium would appear to nearly weigh 1kg more in weight. Oh yes, the cylinder vac pays dividends when the main head is taken off. Oh yes you have a much lighter hose, but then you can buy a hose that has twice as much length and use that on an upright. Not much of a difference there in my opinion.
Of course what you seem to forget is that in the UK we don't have cylinder vacs with PN heads unless you buy in from SEBO and only recently Miele are offering a power nozzle floor head.
In your opinion you think an upright with a turbo brush is no comparison to a cylinder. I think differently - again it comes down to weight and usage of particular brands and the tools on offer.
You preach on about being an engineer, yet you're not able to clearly widen your view that brands and models do things differently per type of vacuum cleaner.
However, end of the day UK buyers don't tend to buy a lot of cylinder vacuums because we've only had cylinders with suction only floor heads or air driven turbo brushes. We've been led to believe that uprights are best - helped by Hoover from the U.S "back in the day" and other established brands.
blakaeg
Well-known member
I would much prefer to push around an upright vacuum cleaner than lug around a motorised head unit on a cylinder vacuum cleaner.
Tried a Sebo D4 Premium in my home and found it cumbersome.
Tried a Sebo D4 Premium in my home and found it cumbersome.
O the tenants of our other house left behind a veritable speed dark green Hoover power, British made I think and a yellow goblin Aztec, the goblin Aztec was pretty quiet! Nice little vac, but had no filters slots, no post filter slot and no cord rewind, LOL, very weird vacuum but I think its a good budget vac
turbo500
Well-known member
veritable speed dark green Hoover power
Not really sure what that post had to do with the discussion, but do you mean variable power Hoover PurePower?
The Aztec should definitely have filters, IIRC they clipped into place in a plastic cage
Not really sure what that post had to do with the discussion, but do you mean variable power Hoover PurePower?
The Aztec should definitely have filters, IIRC they clipped into place in a plastic cage
