I shall be on BBC Radio Leeds tomorrow from 8am

[sebo_fan]

If only people realised about Kirby...

People do realise that Kirby are good uprights - but they're far from quick, nimble and lets face it due to the metal construction - are hardly the vacuum of choice for wheeling out to the car or lifting. Whenever anyone asks me for a good upright similar to a Kirby, I always point out the Hoover Senior or the Sanitaire models that the UK had in recent years. You can't go wrong with either, though both lack an onboard hose and tools. Kirby's main problem IMHO is that they don't sell on the high street but stick exclusively to door to door sales, in the same way that Vorwerk do - and most owners I've read reviews by online have changed to the SEBO Felix because the model is very similar - and bags and filters are far more widely available.

Collectors are different since they usually have 3 or a lot more to pick.

Kirby uprights in the UK are forever over priced anyway - as Chris pointed out quite rightly - very few buyers will pluck for a vacuum cleaner that costs £1000 let alone a brand that in recent years has received very bad press BECAUSE of the way it is sold door to door in the UK. Even at second hand prices, big machines like Kirby are an instant put off - they're simply too large and look too large to use.

Cue American sized fridge freezers - most people I know who ordered ones had to put theirs into their rear conservatories because they either dont fit through the kitchen door or are too large to put into an average UK kitchen anyway.

 

[spiraclean]

Also, don't forget that direct air cleaners are typically of the soft bag type, and these do have a bit of an image problem. In many people's eyes they are considered to be old fashioned, like something your grandmother would have had. For example, during the 90s when I worked in sales, my colleagues used to refer to the Turbo Junior as a granny vacuum. There's a reason for that; nobody under 60 ever bought them. Even the regular hardbag Turbo was a tricky sale by that point, and appealed mainly to the buyer who was specifically looking for something more traditional.

Now us guys here may know the strengths of direct air machines, particularly when it comes to cleaning carpet. But the same cannot be said for the average buyer casually browsing cleaners in a shop, who would immediately think "old hat" and keep on looking for something that appears more modern.

There is the hose issue too. Dirty fan cleaners usually have relatively poor tool suction. Those that don't (e.g. Kirby) require more user involvement for hose conversion. Neither situation holds much appeal for consumers, who for the past 20 odd years have been used to having high suction onboard tools as a standard feature. I think it's safe to say, most people would consider anything less to be a massive step backwards.

 

[madabouthoovers]

Well, its as I said, Dyson changed people's attitudes to vacuums, and bagged vacs seemed to go out of fashion almost overnight, as soon as the DA001 was launched, people just had to have one, as they were so futuristic.
However, if the 900W limit really is to come in, then clean fan vacs will have to get a lot more efficient, and even the modest Henry and Sebo X4 will have to be made less powerful, which may well mean a drop in suction power.
The only Dyson less than 900W is the DC24 and DC50 I think, and these are not very powerful, as people have commented in reviews of them.
Mr Dyson will have to start using the DDM in more vacs than just the hand vacs, and this may just ensure that the suction power for under 900W is acceptable.

You may be right about Kirbys, and they are due for a major design change, as the current platform is now 23 years old, but what do Kirby do to survive? Carry on with the dirty fan nostalgia look of previous models, or go clean fan? Its a hard one to predict, but if they stick with the 1990 designed current model, they may well go the same way as Oreck, and that would be a shame. Kirby do need to offer more than one model though, and need to cater for those without carpets better, or those that want onboard tools.

 

[vintagerepairer]

overnight sucess...

Although the Dyson cleaners sold well from the start (to the point they were actually sold through Great Universal Stores in the later part of 1992 before production had even started), it took a good deal of years for them to really take off. It would have been around the start of 1997 when the vacuum cleaner market really began to feel the change from bagged to bagless, possibly with the introduction of two bagless cyclonic models from Electrolux. From here, Dyson bought out several new models, as did Hoover before the year was out.

If you look back at the range of bagged cleaners available and the quality of same, you'll see that it was fairly consistent throughout the late 1980's into the late 1990's, but towards the year 2000 it began to falter greatly, as more & more consumers were opting for bagless, in particularly Dyson cleaners.

As for fan-first cleaning, well the Kirby is the 'success' it is due to high-pressure sales. I am not saying it is not good at what it does, but it's probably because of what is now a unique style of cleaner that makes it a hit amognst those who buy it. I don't foresee fan-first cleaners ever becoming popular in the UK again, as it seems to be easier to offer better filtration on clean-air vacuum cleaners, and in addition to this, most upright vacuum cleaner consumers will be used to picking up all sorts of rubbish with their clean-fan cleaners; because of that I don't think a fan-first cleaner would cope with what it would be subjected to now.

 

[madabouthoovers]

Ah yes, filtration. When you think that folk used to get along very well with the single layer paper bag models as late as the early 90's with the Turbopower 1, manufacturers have been keen to sell us ever more levels of filtration since then, so that a vacuum cleaner now cleans the air to the same extent as a HEPA air purifier. Surely there are not that many people in the UK that have allergies so severe that it nessessitates HEPA 12 level filtration on virtually every clean air vac on the market nowadays?
It takes so much more energy to have to force the airflow through so many filters (or levels of filtration) - each obstructing the airflow so much that over 2000 Watts are now needed in a lot of clean air models to produce a good suction.

Sebo X4 uses 5 stage filtration (3 in the bag, 1 in the pre-motor and 1 exhaust) to produce s-class filtration to hospital standard, Miele uses more than this. Do we really need such high levels of filtration? I think not.
OK, the early cloth bags of the Kirby Classic and prior models, and the shake out bags of other early vacs used to belch out dust if not washed regularly, but the advent of the paper bags made things better so that many of the users would not suffer from clouds of dust every time the bag was tapped or hit against furniture, and it only used to take a modest 250W to 700W to drive the airflow through these bags.
Technology now needs to take a step back and consider what sacrifices we could make on filtration and suction levels to return power consumption to sensible levels again, and so that the vacuum cleaner no longer uses as much electric as a twin bar electric fire!

 

[tolivac]

Filtrete style spun woven bags have drastically improved the filtering performance for all types of vacuum bags-a real breakthrough in filter and bag technology-has improved the filtering ability for direct air vacuums greatly as seen with Kirby vacuums.The biggest limitation for the Kirby with the hose is you have to be REALLY careful what you pick up-would not suggest using the Kirby hose setup for vacuuming areas you can't see-that unseen quarter in the couch or the pebble behind the car seat may blow your fan!Kirby honestly needs to design in a scrap trap for the hose attachment-knda the same idea as the NSS M1 vacuums.My Kirbys are the daily users-my clean air vacs just sit in the corner-the Kirby just does better on carpets-and with Filtrete bags you can pack more debris into them over paper bags.So the Filtrete bag gives new life for direct air machines.Royal needs to provide some for their metal machines-type B.

 

[sebo_fan]

It does NOT take high power alone to produce STRONG suction!

No problem for the SEBO X4 to have 900 watts -its predecessor, the X1 Automatic had an 850 watt motor which can still be bought online as well as available worldwide under the Windsor Sensor brand. The SEBO X series isn't just known for its electro-sensor head.

SEBO, Miele and quite a few other brands that still use bagged capture of dust also offer SEALED suction - not just limited to the bin area but the whole product. Coupled with continuous air flow without leakage and the general design with the motor on board can ensure strong suction.

As for HEPA filtration - well in the last 20 years, more people have been born with allergies stemmed from a number of variables - back in the 1980s when smog was at its highest and only being identifiable by the Americans and a few other European countries, there was not a lot of pressure on brands to produce high quality filters as they are now. Being able to contain the smell of dog hair back into a room from a bagged vacuum can only be done with multi layer filtration and if brands choose to wrongly name the filter used as HEPA, then so be it. It works better than the poor 2 or 3 layer foam filters otherwise.

Mostly down to Dyson's marketing and advertising are buyers also led to believe the dust bag is bad as well as bags ripping - the synthetic dust bags fight back that old tale. Regardless of what Dyson and other bagless brands pap off - its all very well having the BAF seal of approval stamped on the back of a vacuum cleaner's filtration process - but we all know come the time to empty or de-clog that shroud, that the Approval seal is nothing short of marketing than reality.

 

[anthony]

high wattage vacuum cleaners

i would imagine this will all end with the three thousand watt vacuum cleaner with its huge cable hooks to cope with the thick flex that would be the most we could have here in the uk because of wiring and fuse limitations

 

[vintagerepairer]

Thick flex

Well this would be the issue of course. As a way of saving money, for a good deal of years now, some manufacturers of all sorts of appliances have been using thinner and thinner flex for even the most power-hungry appliances, in the theory that the appliance will not be drawing current for very long. Immediate example: kettles again. Tumble-dryers seemed to have escaped this, and rightly so as they can be used over & over again on a wet wash day, but even now some of them are being supplied with 1.00mm as opposed to the usual 1.25mm flex. As a 3KW vacuum cleaner would be drawing full power for all of the time it was on, and over a relatively long distance too, a thick flex will be almost essential. As would soft-start electronics so as not to blow the fuse in the plug upon start-up.

The cost and inconvenience of thick flex would surely be enough to encourage the manufacturers to not allow the motor wattages to get much higher.

 

[anthony]

high wattage vacuum cleaners

i would imagine this will all end with the three thousand watt vacuum cleaner with its huge cable hooks to cope with the thick flex that would be the most we could have here in the uk because of wiring and fuse limitations

 

[hi-loswitch98]

Oh my God Chris!

You're only 9 years older than me!

Our 1900w Panasonic is really powerful, you can't vacuum curtains with it as they get sucked in & you have to switch it off to release them.

Good show! You really did well on the second one! And especially how you gave some publicity for VacuumLand!

Also if possible, is it possible to maybe buy the Philips U800 next week?

 

[tolivac]

Anyone have pictures of a 3Kw vacuum motor? This I would like to see.The largest in my collection would be 1800W-15A 120V.Tornado wet-dry vacuum motor.

 

[sebo_fan]

Dont know of a 3KW vacuum though Im sure one exists somewhere else in Europe. As for the actual photo of one, I draw a blank. However, just found a 2500 watt Panasonic cylinder vacuum presentation video in the Middle East on You Tube.

 

[tolivac]

Interesting-Don't know of 2500W vacuums where I am-maybe for industrial use to run from 208-240V circuits.-Not for home use.Most vacuum cleaners for home use in the USA are less than 15A 120V-to be used with 15A 120V NEMA US outlets and plugs.

 

[sensotronic]

3000 Watt Vacuum

I've found a 3000 Watt vacuum and it's a bargain. Perhaps I should get one for my next YouTube video.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008LBDOI0

 

[hi-loswitch98]

Didn't get many good reviews though sensotronic

 

[madabouthoovers]

No, it didn't, and it looks like a very cheap and nasty market stall copy of the Dyson DC11. I wouldn't touch it with a 40 foot bargepole.

I have a cylinder vac rated 2500W, although I've only used it once - the Siemens Z6 - Power. I have never seen a quality vacuum rated higher than this.
The highest power of 2500W on the vario dial on this vac is never needed as the floor head becomes near impossible to push across carpets.

http://design.kitchensatlanta.com/2009/12/siemens-vacuum-cleaner-offers-green-power/

 

[sebo_fan]

If its the same one, then this Siemens is rated at 1200 watts with a claim of being as powerful as 2400 watts. Bosch have been doing this for years - though the BSGL5 series I had that had a big amount of power cable length was poorly designed - loosely based on the same company Siemens Z6. Quieter though than Miele which impressed me but the small cleaning tools did not.



http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/the-energy-efficient-siemens-z-104242

 

[ultraperformer]

I've found a 3000 Watt vacuum and it's a bargain. Pe

Roger, you've already been told you have to do a DC26 video next! I loved your reply!

Dan