compactc9guy
Well-known member
4 unit no damage be well .
Hepa bags for Tristar
- Thread starter mylesrom
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dysonman1
Well-known member
The cloth bag should always be used with a disposable bag, so the disposable bag doesn’t become so puffed out that it is difficult to remove from the machine when it is full. The cloth bag aids removing a full disposable bag.
compactc9guy
Well-known member
Well said always use both.
vaclab
Well-known member
F-U-D
Fear, uncertainty, doubt. Hence the term "FUD". Gents, we must use our brains please. As I've proven in my 8 minute, long-winded, really boring and quite repetitive rant, for those wishing maximum cleaning performance (CFM) from their TriStars, feel free to use just the V.A.C. H10 bag. If you don't feel comfortable doing so, then don't.
It is INCORRECT to push false information that you must use multiple filters (bags inside of bags) and most enthusiasts know this. Following a decades old manual that couldn't possibly take into account all things HEPA is being quite ignorant, isn't it? Modern filtration has made massive strides forward, right?
Think about this: Electrolux for decades primarily only used single ply bags as the only filter. Then came multiple ply bags (I've used them both over a 39 year period). The TriStar can easily run on 1 filter only without any motor damage.
If you have H10 pre-motor filtration, adding more filters is essentially pointless and serves to only line the pockets of those selling parts, unless you feel the need to have full HEPA pre-motor and post-motor filters to pass some extreme filtration test.
Also, I don't buy for a minute that most users will somehow jam-pack their bag so full that it somehow requires a crowbar to remove it. Not on Vacuumland anyway.
Last note, everybody should be aware that adding filters reduces motor life by increasing the heat generated by the motor in addition to decreasing CFM. It's a lose-lose situation if you care about longevity. The cooler everything runs, the longer it lasts.
Bill
Fear, uncertainty, doubt. Hence the term "FUD". Gents, we must use our brains please. As I've proven in my 8 minute, long-winded, really boring and quite repetitive rant, for those wishing maximum cleaning performance (CFM) from their TriStars, feel free to use just the V.A.C. H10 bag. If you don't feel comfortable doing so, then don't.
It is INCORRECT to push false information that you must use multiple filters (bags inside of bags) and most enthusiasts know this. Following a decades old manual that couldn't possibly take into account all things HEPA is being quite ignorant, isn't it? Modern filtration has made massive strides forward, right?
Think about this: Electrolux for decades primarily only used single ply bags as the only filter. Then came multiple ply bags (I've used them both over a 39 year period). The TriStar can easily run on 1 filter only without any motor damage.
If you have H10 pre-motor filtration, adding more filters is essentially pointless and serves to only line the pockets of those selling parts, unless you feel the need to have full HEPA pre-motor and post-motor filters to pass some extreme filtration test.
Also, I don't buy for a minute that most users will somehow jam-pack their bag so full that it somehow requires a crowbar to remove it. Not on Vacuumland anyway.
Last note, everybody should be aware that adding filters reduces motor life by increasing the heat generated by the motor in addition to decreasing CFM. It's a lose-lose situation if you care about longevity. The cooler everything runs, the longer it lasts.
Bill
Bill
Using HEPA bags how many cfms do you lose.
I have a request maybe. Veva makes really high quality vacuum bags. 30 bags for $29 and I'd dare say there as good or better than Kirby bag with green writing on it. Have you used any of there bags. I'd recommend it alot cheaper than Kirby oem bags.
Thanks
Les
Using HEPA bags how many cfms do you lose.
I have a request maybe. Veva makes really high quality vacuum bags. 30 bags for $29 and I'd dare say there as good or better than Kirby bag with green writing on it. Have you used any of there bags. I'd recommend it alot cheaper than Kirby oem bags.
Thanks
Les
You fiddled with the rubber ring 3 times to get the cardboard seal of the hepa bag to line up. I don't have a 100 percent faith that little cardboard seal will hold on a 3/4 filled bag every time. After you fill up 10 bags and tell is none have collapsed I will have more trust in your setup. Until then I will run the cloth bag with it as I can guarantee it will not collapse.
If even one corner of you setup slips in a tiny bit, then your motor is toast. But if you feel confident in your setup, go ahead. Just don't tell everyone to USE YOUR BRAINS because you feel you outsmarted the engineers.
Other hepa bag setups have proper cardboard supports and locks to keep them in place, that tiny piece of cardboard on the tristar bag was not meant to be the main seal, the cloth bag is the main seal and using the rubber ring does not replace the cloth bag.
If even one corner of you setup slips in a tiny bit, then your motor is toast. But if you feel confident in your setup, go ahead. Just don't tell everyone to USE YOUR BRAINS because you feel you outsmarted the engineers.
Other hepa bag setups have proper cardboard supports and locks to keep them in place, that tiny piece of cardboard on the tristar bag was not meant to be the main seal, the cloth bag is the main seal and using the rubber ring does not replace the cloth bag.
rivstg1
Well-known member
Les
truly, " I'd dare say there as good or better than Kirby bag". you can't even remotely know that w/o testing them. I thought the same thing for the Clean Fairy cloth charcoal bags. Some were sent to Vaclab and he found they were good, but nearly as good as the genuine HEPA bags. We can't just go on how they feel/thickness/price.
mylesrom: you make some interesting and fair points to consider. Vaclab, in a way , IS outsmarting the engineers from the past....kinda...b/c he's utilizing newer technology into the cleaning mix. The 'engineers' that designed the Tri Start were working with a cloth bag only as the filtration and debris container(as did Electrolux etc) Then, paper bags were adopted as the competition and buying public placed more emphasis on cleaner emissions from vacuums...followed by the development of HEPA cloth bags. They didn't redesign the intake/bag collection it seems, they went the least costly way...added Hepa. Other brands (Kirby, Electrolux etc) did AWAY with the just the cloth bag....and straight to the best disposable bag feasibly useable. It makes sense what Vaclab wrote...the other bags aren't needed with a quality HEPA bag thats been tested. I'd like to see if that cardboard ring holds as well.
just musings..
truly, " I'd dare say there as good or better than Kirby bag". you can't even remotely know that w/o testing them. I thought the same thing for the Clean Fairy cloth charcoal bags. Some were sent to Vaclab and he found they were good, but nearly as good as the genuine HEPA bags. We can't just go on how they feel/thickness/price.
mylesrom: you make some interesting and fair points to consider. Vaclab, in a way , IS outsmarting the engineers from the past....kinda...b/c he's utilizing newer technology into the cleaning mix. The 'engineers' that designed the Tri Start were working with a cloth bag only as the filtration and debris container(as did Electrolux etc) Then, paper bags were adopted as the competition and buying public placed more emphasis on cleaner emissions from vacuums...followed by the development of HEPA cloth bags. They didn't redesign the intake/bag collection it seems, they went the least costly way...added Hepa. Other brands (Kirby, Electrolux etc) did AWAY with the just the cloth bag....and straight to the best disposable bag feasibly useable. It makes sense what Vaclab wrote...the other bags aren't needed with a quality HEPA bag thats been tested. I'd like to see if that cardboard ring holds as well.
just musings..
rivstg1
I don't think he is outsmarting anyone. The hepa bags are designed to be used within the cloth bag for support and seal. If you wish to put your faith into that 2mm cardboard ring will hold up under rigorous use, then feel free to give it a try. According to his logic it will produce more heat in the motor with a cloth bag and yet my 30+ plus year old tristar that was my parents and has been mine for 20 years is still going strong with paper, cloth and motor filter, no exhaust filter and I use it daily.... so how much extra life on my motor am I going to get by removing the cloth bag?
I haven't heard of anyone using paper bags without the cloth bag and I don't think anyone would try it. The hepa is stronger and should not break, but its the sealing ring, that I wouldn't put any faith into....
And Kirbys still use a cloth bag outside the paper or hepa bag....
I don't think he is outsmarting anyone. The hepa bags are designed to be used within the cloth bag for support and seal. If you wish to put your faith into that 2mm cardboard ring will hold up under rigorous use, then feel free to give it a try. According to his logic it will produce more heat in the motor with a cloth bag and yet my 30+ plus year old tristar that was my parents and has been mine for 20 years is still going strong with paper, cloth and motor filter, no exhaust filter and I use it daily.... so how much extra life on my motor am I going to get by removing the cloth bag?
I haven't heard of anyone using paper bags without the cloth bag and I don't think anyone would try it. The hepa is stronger and should not break, but its the sealing ring, that I wouldn't put any faith into....
And Kirbys still use a cloth bag outside the paper or hepa bag....
Kelton
I have tested. I haven't busted out anamometer but side by side same size same thickness and usage they are superior not by alot but a name brand Kirby bag getting outperformed by a $1 HEPA aftermarket bag outperforming brand name is unusual especially at a cheaper price.
Yes I have tested that's how I said I dare say they are just as good as if not better. In case you missed my quote. I don't have air particle tester he does hence the question.
Les
I have tested. I haven't busted out anamometer but side by side same size same thickness and usage they are superior not by alot but a name brand Kirby bag getting outperformed by a $1 HEPA aftermarket bag outperforming brand name is unusual especially at a cheaper price.
Yes I have tested that's how I said I dare say they are just as good as if not better. In case you missed my quote. I don't have air particle tester he does hence the question.
Les
vaclab
Well-known member
Replies
Les,
I'm always ready to accept donations for testing. If anyone wants to send me their favorite bags/filters, feel free. BUT, did you see my Clean Fairy particle tests? That much cheaper Kirby alternative was MUCH WORSE than then OEM. Airflow wasn't tested as the bag filled up, but my guess is that residual CFM would be very similar.
Kirby Charcoal = 90, Clean Fairy Charcoal = 1400. About 16 times worse. That's noteable to be sure.
Mylesrom,
I never said nor implied I outsmarted the engineers. The engineers never had the same technology available to them as we have now. The manual and/or certain procedures have been superseded, or updated if you prefer. Things change over time, right? So yes, "use your brains" still very much applies. it's not 1975 anymore.
And I left in my flubs because I thought they were funny. I do have a sense of humor y'know. I could have easily edited that part out if I wanted to.
The clamping pressure is tremendous with the lid locked and will easily hold in place whatever you install properly. I have also placed the rubber ring on top of the bag collar, so use that method if you prefer. I would never recommend any upgrade in my videos if they didn't work, but you have to be willing to try.
And extending motor life is a relative thing. From a Physics standpoint, reducing heat and back pressure extends life. Some may care, some may not. Running your older TriStar without exhaust filtering will make the largest difference of course as most exhaust filters tend to be the most restrictive.
Bill
Les,
I'm always ready to accept donations for testing. If anyone wants to send me their favorite bags/filters, feel free. BUT, did you see my Clean Fairy particle tests? That much cheaper Kirby alternative was MUCH WORSE than then OEM. Airflow wasn't tested as the bag filled up, but my guess is that residual CFM would be very similar.
Kirby Charcoal = 90, Clean Fairy Charcoal = 1400. About 16 times worse. That's noteable to be sure.
Mylesrom,
I never said nor implied I outsmarted the engineers. The engineers never had the same technology available to them as we have now. The manual and/or certain procedures have been superseded, or updated if you prefer. Things change over time, right? So yes, "use your brains" still very much applies. it's not 1975 anymore.
And I left in my flubs because I thought they were funny. I do have a sense of humor y'know. I could have easily edited that part out if I wanted to.
The clamping pressure is tremendous with the lid locked and will easily hold in place whatever you install properly. I have also placed the rubber ring on top of the bag collar, so use that method if you prefer. I would never recommend any upgrade in my videos if they didn't work, but you have to be willing to try.
And extending motor life is a relative thing. From a Physics standpoint, reducing heat and back pressure extends life. Some may care, some may not. Running your older TriStar without exhaust filtering will make the largest difference of course as most exhaust filters tend to be the most restrictive.
Bill
Vaclab
You have some good points, I personally would leave the cloth bag in mine, not that I think it would add anything for extra filtration to the hepa, but just as a safety precaution and my piece of mind. I wanted to order some of the hepa bags, but the cheapest shipping to Canada is 32 usd.... so I better add a lot to the cart.
On a side note I just picked up a Miele S8 in white on Kijiji here in Edmonton for 70 Cdn bucks. The thing if virtually brand new, there is no dust on it anywhere . Its the white model with the multi floor tool..... its soooo quiet, wow.... happy with that find.
You have some good points, I personally would leave the cloth bag in mine, not that I think it would add anything for extra filtration to the hepa, but just as a safety precaution and my piece of mind. I wanted to order some of the hepa bags, but the cheapest shipping to Canada is 32 usd.... so I better add a lot to the cart.
On a side note I just picked up a Miele S8 in white on Kijiji here in Edmonton for 70 Cdn bucks. The thing if virtually brand new, there is no dust on it anywhere . Its the white model with the multi floor tool..... its soooo quiet, wow.... happy with that find.
compactc9guy
Well-known member
Vaclab maybe whit al l your gizmo and such you think your test a full bullet proof .power to ya ok
But i dont give a dust bag about following a 1978 79 old manual i will continue to usea ll 4 layers of filtration i dont care about the dam particul counter ok I rather protect my motor and havea the original Motor for my IEC Comapct electra interstte model c9 run like the day she was made whit no dust leakage ok .So maybe im some what eva idiot but be it .I rather use all 4 layers of filtration ie envirocare paprer bag , cloth bag , pre motor fitler and e4xhausty filter than just one layer to have more cfm on ur lil toy machine thing what ever that is ok .....
Difrent stroke for difrent folks per say but i never replace the motor in my compact c9 !
to this day !
That should tell ya some thing i dont give a full dust bag about your test ok ... i rather run my vacuum to OEM spec that have some fan mess whit my machine ty rant over .
and btw my compact pick up saw dust and never hada any leakage in the bag compartment gee i wonder why ????
4 fitler that why .
Compacts says in the original manual weitehr you like it or not or think your a kink o n video waht eva .,.... 4layers p[aper bag should be use whit cloth bag never alone !! no mater if its hepa or not .Other compact ownwers will atest to this .
I could care less about your particle counter do you even have a phd in vacuum or something? no then until then i will listen to ya buddy bill .
My Compact Eleectra Interstate model C9 has 4 layers of filtration maybe im some stuck up idito but i rather keep the original motor working like new hepa or not the company that made the vacuum knows more how to use it and fitlers to use than interenet ty good dya rant ova .;
But i dont give a dust bag about following a 1978 79 old manual i will continue to usea ll 4 layers of filtration i dont care about the dam particul counter ok I rather protect my motor and havea the original Motor for my IEC Comapct electra interstte model c9 run like the day she was made whit no dust leakage ok .So maybe im some what eva idiot but be it .I rather use all 4 layers of filtration ie envirocare paprer bag , cloth bag , pre motor fitler and e4xhausty filter than just one layer to have more cfm on ur lil toy machine thing what ever that is ok .....
Difrent stroke for difrent folks per say but i never replace the motor in my compact c9 !
to this day !
That should tell ya some thing i dont give a full dust bag about your test ok ... i rather run my vacuum to OEM spec that have some fan mess whit my machine ty rant over .
and btw my compact pick up saw dust and never hada any leakage in the bag compartment gee i wonder why ????
4 fitler that why .
Compacts says in the original manual weitehr you like it or not or think your a kink o n video waht eva .,.... 4layers p[aper bag should be use whit cloth bag never alone !! no mater if its hepa or not .Other compact ownwers will atest to this .
I could care less about your particle counter do you even have a phd in vacuum or something? no then until then i will listen to ya buddy bill .
My Compact Eleectra Interstate model C9 has 4 layers of filtration maybe im some stuck up idito but i rather keep the original motor working like new hepa or not the company that made the vacuum knows more how to use it and fitlers to use than interenet ty good dya rant ova .;
compactc9guy
Well-known member
maybe im an idiot but i rater protect the motor and she runs cool asa cucumber per say .Why? the colth bag envirocare paper bag and prem otor filter are desing to be use together not alone .Other compact afinionatos can ates to this so yes i will follow my manual thats why i got it to know how to properly use my machine ty good day i beg to differ and thats my story ty . god bless amen ty .
bnsd60m9200
Well-known member
compactc9guy
instead of being open minded to someone with scientific testing, your brazen insulting of vaclab in defense of "oem instruction" shows your lack of respect for what his knowledge is and your clear lack of understanding of WHY motors even have filtration at all.
its to prevent dust particles of certain sizes causing arching in the commutator and reducing motor lifespan. nothing more. particles of a certain small size will either be vaporized by the carbons contacting the commutator, and others that small will simply flow thru the machine. particles large enough to cause problems are actually visible to the naked eye. yes it does protect bearings to a degree but older unsealed bearings will be contaminants anyways which is why bearings need to have greased replaced after so many hours of usage.
compacts up until around the c5 didnt even use bags at all, just the fabric bag liner as a filter. paper bags were added to better filtration, but really in the case of vacuums like a compact or GE swiveltop, to sell bags, not offer better filtration.
exhaust filters are there to catch carbon dust, not offer "better filtration". hepa exhaust filters dont do much because carbon dust is big enough even a simple less than hepa rated exhaust filter will catch all the carbon particles plenty fine
in the end, do as you prefer and see fit, but dont insult someone because they present a viewpoint with evidence that differs from yours.
instead of being open minded to someone with scientific testing, your brazen insulting of vaclab in defense of "oem instruction" shows your lack of respect for what his knowledge is and your clear lack of understanding of WHY motors even have filtration at all.
its to prevent dust particles of certain sizes causing arching in the commutator and reducing motor lifespan. nothing more. particles of a certain small size will either be vaporized by the carbons contacting the commutator, and others that small will simply flow thru the machine. particles large enough to cause problems are actually visible to the naked eye. yes it does protect bearings to a degree but older unsealed bearings will be contaminants anyways which is why bearings need to have greased replaced after so many hours of usage.
compacts up until around the c5 didnt even use bags at all, just the fabric bag liner as a filter. paper bags were added to better filtration, but really in the case of vacuums like a compact or GE swiveltop, to sell bags, not offer better filtration.
exhaust filters are there to catch carbon dust, not offer "better filtration". hepa exhaust filters dont do much because carbon dust is big enough even a simple less than hepa rated exhaust filter will catch all the carbon particles plenty fine
in the end, do as you prefer and see fit, but dont insult someone because they present a viewpoint with evidence that differs from yours.
dysonman1
Well-known member
Just as an FYI to everyone, the first Compact to use a disposable bag was the model C2 in 1950. “They make an easy and sanitary convenience for disposing of the dirt that accumulates in cleaning“.
When I watched Bill‘s video, I thought it was tongue-in-cheek. I laughed my ass off the whole way through thinking “nobody would believe this crap“. I had no idea he was actually serious. I still don’t actually think he is. It’s like making a video and telling people it’s OK to use the Rainbow without water.
When I watched Bill‘s video, I thought it was tongue-in-cheek. I laughed my ass off the whole way through thinking “nobody would believe this crap“. I had no idea he was actually serious. I still don’t actually think he is. It’s like making a video and telling people it’s OK to use the Rainbow without water.
vaclab
Well-known member
Tom, I'm Shocked At Your Ignorance
at how vacuums actually work. Seriously, how can you not know that all you need in a TriStar or older Electrolux is ONE filter. And ONE filter only. Placing just ONE high quality filter before the motor to separate the dirt from the air is the point of that type of vacuum!
Since the primary filter in a Rainbow is water, why would I tell anyone not to use water in their Rainbow? Of course you do know (I hope) that Rexair does say you can start out with dry bowl when picking up a large spill, right?
Since my channel caters to enthusiasts (those would desire the highest level of performance), I would expect those who want more "oomph" rather than less to try out my suggestion. For my two TriStars, a single HEPA filter is the only way I run them. No issues at all!
Benefits of a single (just like my 1401-B Lux) HEPA filter are:
1) Higher CFM
2) Lower operating temperature
3) Higher filtration level than OEM
So I have to wonder, what's to laugh at here? The fact that I've introduced an idea that makes some TriStar owners uncomfortable? Big deal, get over it. It's not for you then, but the idea is not crazy or some joke.
TriStar owners think very carefully about this: do you really need THREE filters before the motor intake? NOPE!
ONE and only ONE good filter (i.e. bag) will do just fine, just like in my 1980 Olympia One. PERIOD.
Bill
at how vacuums actually work. Seriously, how can you not know that all you need in a TriStar or older Electrolux is ONE filter. And ONE filter only. Placing just ONE high quality filter before the motor to separate the dirt from the air is the point of that type of vacuum!
Since the primary filter in a Rainbow is water, why would I tell anyone not to use water in their Rainbow? Of course you do know (I hope) that Rexair does say you can start out with dry bowl when picking up a large spill, right?
Since my channel caters to enthusiasts (those would desire the highest level of performance), I would expect those who want more "oomph" rather than less to try out my suggestion. For my two TriStars, a single HEPA filter is the only way I run them. No issues at all!
Benefits of a single (just like my 1401-B Lux) HEPA filter are:
1) Higher CFM
2) Lower operating temperature
3) Higher filtration level than OEM
So I have to wonder, what's to laugh at here? The fact that I've introduced an idea that makes some TriStar owners uncomfortable? Big deal, get over it. It's not for you then, but the idea is not crazy or some joke.
TriStar owners think very carefully about this: do you really need THREE filters before the motor intake? NOPE!
ONE and only ONE good filter (i.e. bag) will do just fine, just like in my 1980 Olympia One. PERIOD.
Bill
compactc9guy
Well-known member
I agree even on C2 they had bags .
compactc9guy
Well-known member
For god shake bill drop it TRISTSR VOMPACT NEED ALL 4 LAYERS are you deaf??
???geez im done whit your non sense !!!
???geez im done whit your non sense !!!
vaclab
Well-known member
One Last Time For CompactC9Guy
The manual is irrelevant as I've proven over and over. It's not 30, 40, or 50 years ago. We're in a HEPA age now and that's all you need. Some people simply can't be forced into modern times and I'm OK with that.
I clearly read "The paper dust containers should be used with the cloth containers." Did you not clearly understand that? The H10 bag is not a paper container. It can now replace (or upgrade) the outdated (and poor filtering) paper/cloth duo that some people clearly still feel comfortable using.
Maybe I should make yet another dull and boring rant video showing more specifically how/why three pre-motor filters (2 bags and one foam filter) are redundant.
Bill
The manual is irrelevant as I've proven over and over. It's not 30, 40, or 50 years ago. We're in a HEPA age now and that's all you need. Some people simply can't be forced into modern times and I'm OK with that.
I clearly read "The paper dust containers should be used with the cloth containers." Did you not clearly understand that? The H10 bag is not a paper container. It can now replace (or upgrade) the outdated (and poor filtering) paper/cloth duo that some people clearly still feel comfortable using.
Maybe I should make yet another dull and boring rant video showing more specifically how/why three pre-motor filters (2 bags and one foam filter) are redundant.
Bill
compactc9guy
Well-known member
I use all 4 she works like a dreams saw dust dirt keep all 4 ty
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