Hepa bags. A gimmick?

[rowdy141]

I'm keen to learn about this fascination with Hepa filtration. Is everyone hypoallergenic all of a sudden? Suffering from hayfever? Filtering the air of a room constantly? Using their vacuums to do the filtering?
When you turn your vacuum Off, you are breathing in the pollen and sub-micron particles that you considered so imperative for your Hepa bag to capture & contain.
Sounds to me as though marketing created a 'need' that never existed before.
Notice how large reusable shake-out bags were discontinued about the same time they told you "You need five layers of disposable filtration"?
Ironically, their greed to sell unnecessary bags, gave Dyson a foot in the door with "bagless".

 

[cinema]

No way... on direct air uprights at least HEPA is the real deal. I have severe allergies. Yes I am breathing pollen and pollution and dog dander constantly and yes I am miserable almost all day. The vacuum is literally exhausting air particles at super high velocity, quite different than walking around a room with still air. If I use a paper bag I am sneezing for the foreseeable future after vacuuming. And it smells like ass. HEPA is 5000% better. There is little to no fine particle exhaust and minimal odor if any.

 

[evilvacuumman]

HEPA bag are not a gimmick. At the shop whenever we get a bag vacuum that has a paper bag it’s compartment is full of dust where if we get one with a HEPA bag in it there is almost little to no dust in it. I have noticed that the cheaper aftermarket HEPA bags aren’t as good as genuine bags so as long as you buy genuine HEPA bags they work great.

 

[cmbcool01]

I think you make a decent point, ofcourse HEPA does improve the air filtration and in a clean air vacuum helps protect the motor more but many of these bags are ridiculously priced and don't last as long as you think a $5 bag would last so i agree it gave Dyson and even worse Shark a foot in the door personally I think bags should be alot cheaper then they are and also more common i never see bags in the grocery store and only see off brands in department stores or Walmart so I'm sure that contributes to high prices ofcourse even then it's been proven even with these pricey bags it's still cheaper to mantain and operate a bagged machine though i think in direct air machines yoi co

 

[cmbcool01]

You could get away with a paper bag

 

[madman]

HEPA seems to fill a legitimate need. I think the real marketing gimmick is the allergies that created the need in the first place. Statistically, rich people who keep themselves and their environments sterile tend to have allergies far more often than normal people who are more 'dirty.' Science has long known that if you're never exposed to a potential allergen, you're almost guaranteed to be allergic to it.

But of course that's just the trend, there are always exceptions.

 

[broomvac]

I use HEPA bags not for the allergen-stopping abilities, but for the performance! It turns out that, generally, synthetic HEPA bags “breathe” a lot more easily than a paper bag would after picking up a given amount of dust. You get noticeably better vacuuming performance from such bags.

As an added bonus, the bag keeps your vacuum cleaner, well, cleaner. Not only are they nearly impossible to tear or burst, but they keep everything downstream of the bag free from dust. If you are trying to preserve an irreplaceable vintage outer bag or a hard-to-service motor, HEPA bags are your best bet.

IMO, they are well worth the money.

 

[rowdy141]

I'm genuinely questioning this whole concept.

In our old Electrolux, we used a shake-out dust beg for twenty years or more. It worked just fine. Our carpets weren't dirty. And there were no carpet-washers in those days.

Electrolux recommended we use only genuine Electrolux paper bag inserts, of course, but my mum couldn't afford to keep buying those.

I'm fabricating a large reusable bag (3x small bags sewn together) to fit my Kirby. Just like early Kirbys had. Manufacturers discontinued larger reusables when they realised their mistake, and I'm trying to outwit them. I cannot afford throw-away Hepa bags, nor a £500 Dyson Super Turbo Vortex.

So, to summarise:
Hepa is actually needed by a minority with allergies.
Hepa is preferred by engineers who service motors after years of use and don't want dusty motor-housings (the cost of bags bourne by customers).
Hepa has a perceived benefit in end results, which only a CSI Team could realistically detect - you cannot see pollen and sub-micron particles in carpet.

There must be reduced airflow in order to trap those finer particals? I suspect its a trade-off. Surely some heavier particles must therefore be left behind in the carpet?

Your views have reinforced my suspicion that Hepa is a marketing phenomenon with only minimal benefit, and at huge expense. Much in-line with "Use only VAX shampoo with this machine" and "Use only genuine Hoover bags with the Hoover logo", or we won't honour your warranty.

Their money is in after-market consumables. Pretty much like printer toner cartridges.
I'm not buying-in.

Thanks guys. I appreciate your input.

 

[mike811]

Hepa/fleece bags are huge improvement.
I don't have allergies, but just the fact that bag compartment stays clean using the hepa bags keeps me using those.
I don't like the idea that paper bags leak dust to the motor. Paper bags also clog when they are half way full. Hepa bags much less so.
Then there is the cost. In the Finland 5 hepa bags cost 10€ (11$).
That is only 2€ (2.2$) per month.

So in my opinion hepa bags are big improvement.

 

[dysonman1]

If you would actually use a cloth bag upright for a period of time, say one year. You would understand. The clogging effect of dirt on a bag is what led to the Dyson. It’s all about how the fine dust clogs the bag. Any kind of bag. Bags are the dead end of the airstream. However, that dead end is put off to its greatest length of time by using HEPA bags. Cyclones will never work as efficiently as HEPA bags because cyclones only work efficiently with a constant stream of air. Put the crevice tool on and put it down on a piece of furniture, and you completely change the amount of air flowing into the cyclones. Most of the dust will be sucked up through the Vortx finders and clog the pre-motor filter. Once again, bags are best.

 

[lesinutah]

Dysonman

Bags vs rainbow.
I love hepa bags just like fact they get debri into the bag.
I have a e2 rainbow and it's maybe in my head but it feels cleaner.
Compact c9 with HEPA bag has cyclone technology.
I'm wondering opinion on rainbow which filters by water.
I don't know if it cleans better than compact but air is cleaner.
I think probably a wash it's just rainbow has built in air purifier.
Les

 

[jake1234]

Vacuum Bags

Well, the availability of bags is even worse in the UK! You guys are saying you can only find aftermarket bags in grocery stores and supermarkets, well here in the UK we cant find any! Nevermind fleece bags, I would just like to see any bags in the stores, we have none. The only place you can get them are online or for a ridiculously high price in a vacuum repair shop which we have next to none left. But by the way, I use fleece bags in some modern vacuums because they maintain higher suction for longer and that is no gimmick. The suction stays strong until the bag is completely full unlike the paper bags. But some people use fleece bags in old machines which I dont agree with as they were meant to use paper bags as thats all that was around back then.

 

[mike811]

Seems like bags availability is very different from country to country. In Finland we have a lot of internet stores selling vacuum bags and accessories. Selection of bags is huge. For example I found hepa bags for my vintage 1979 Electrolux. You can make agreement with them and they automatically send certain amount of bags for example once a year.
Very convenient and you always have bags.

 

[mylesrom]

Here in Canada, thru Amazon I can get 20 hepa type bags for the Kenmore for 24 Cdn dollars. These bags are cheaper than the paper ones. I have never seen dust on the bags or in the chamber even when almost full. As with the paper bags they would always leak dust and the chamber and motor filter would be dirty. So why on earth would you use paper under that circumstance. these are the Clean Fairy brand and work very well in the kenmore.... At about 1.25 Cdn a bag.

 

[lesinutah]

Hard to find

I found the brand veva vacuum bags. They are about$1 a bag. I have Kirby version of their bag and they are just as good of not better. I love them and there better than the Kirby brand which is first I've found.
In UK I imagine Germany or Europe close to you would have bags. A good majority of the American vacuums have European versions of their vacuum cleaner.
Les

 

[kloveland]

I have mixed feelings on the HEPA debate.

For me personally HEPA filtration is on the bottom of my list. Many people have habits and or issues that are far more health devastating. Such as smoking (more than just cigarettes, including second hand smoke) obesity, making poor food choices (me included), lack of exercise and being reckless with one’s overall health are just a few examples. These are things that I would be more concerned about than just a few dust particles in the air.

My grandfather is 89 years old. Although he isn’t doing too well now because of his Parkinson’s disease. I’m almost certain he grew up in a pre-HEPA environment. Probably without electricity back in 1930s rural Missouri. Did I mention he is 89! Living to be 90 and above is a combination of good genes and making positive choices in my opinion.

MadMan, I also agree with you there is a such a thing as having too sterile of an environment. Thank goodness we don’t live in the wild west of the 1800s or in the Oklahoma dust bowl. HEPA bags would make sense in a home environment with multiple, adults and kids dragging in dirt from outside. For me HEPA doesn’t make sense. I’m single and no longer have pets and no bad dust allergies. My primary concern now is the air ducts in my home. My house was built on a slab with the air ducts routed through the slab. The air ducts are deteriorating letting in dirt from underneath the slab and sometimes water. Getting those ducts filled in and routed in ceiling is on the top of my priority list.

For HEPA to work it would probably have to be all over. Is the outdoors HEPA filtered? Most of our work environments are probably not using HEPA rated vacuums. I do agree that HEPA bags probably do keep vacuum bag chambers cleaner and are probably less restrictive on suction as the bags fills. I haven’t used a HEPA bag long enough to see this for myself. I love using my vintage machines. I primarily use Hoover Convertibles, Hoover or Elux canister or an old dusty Kirby with no ill health effects. But then again, I’m a collector. I know being personally responsible for my own health by trying to eat the right things and exercising frequently will be more beneficial to me than using a HEPA certified vacuum. I’m not necessarily harping on this thread but other threads I’ve seen on vacuumland that discuss HEPA. I think having perspective is good!

 

[mike811]

Good points there!
I only use hepa bags because they keep the bag compartment clean and airflow/suction doesn't drop like it does with the paper bags.
I have quite many vacuums what originally came with the post motor hepa filter.
When hepa filter in many of my vacuums has become dirty I have replaced it with just a foam or thin micro filter. I really don't need expensive hepa filter.
All I care is to keep my vacuums performing well/clean as possible.
For old vacuums like in the picture hepa bag really keeps it clean and performance doesn't drop so quickly.

 

[mark40511]

I don't have

severe allergies either. HEPA bags do keep the machine super clean. I recently got a Cirrus upright vacuum last year. The Genuine HEPA bags aren't expensive and last forever. I wanted to see how long I could go without changing it. It was KILLING me to go so long but I wanted to push it. Finally, after about 4 and 1/2 months of almost daily use, I changed the bag the other day. The bag had no smell because of some activated charcoal granules sucked up in the bag. There literally was not a SPOT of dust in the bag chamber. The bag held all that filth and kept the vacuum clean. I think they make the HEPA filter last much longer too but I'm not 100% on that as I think carbon dust ends up getting to the HEPA before anything.

 

[tseg]

I'm in my 50's and only "discovered" hi-end closed system vacuums and HEPA filters in the past few years. These past few years are the first time in my life I have nearly no allergy symptoms when most of my life they have been severe. Maybe this change in allergy reduction is due to something other than my vacuum system but I can't think of anything else.


I know for a fact whenever I would vacuum with my old Dyson DC14 I'd be sniveling that evening... which made me vacuum less... which compounded problems over time.

 

[mark40511]

As much as I love HEPA

bags, I do sometimes wonder if it's the rubber area seal around the collar of the bag and how tight of a fit that goes onto the vacuum that's most important. You can have a HEPA bag or a paper bag and they can both leak if that's not a good seal connecting to the bag. I had this problem with Kenmore canisters. Always always dust in the bag chamber. My Epic 6500, even using the 4 play paper bags, no dust in the chamber...those aren't HEPA bags......but I do notice airflow drops off rather quickly on those. With HEPA bags, the airflow stays pretty decent throughout.......which you would think would be the OPPOSITE since HEPA bags are thicker.

Keeping a super clean home might not be the best for people and their immune systems, but it's better for things like your refrigerator, HVAC, etc.

 

[lesinutah]

Hepa

I've come to believe that HEPA bags filter really well. I noticed my compact with HEPA gets very fine dust. The vacuum performance is about the same. If you have allergies I'd only use HEPA(I don't have allergies). I still tend to use hepa. Older eureka/hoover/sanitairre f&g I use oem or high filtration. The royal I use type a royal bags they seem to work better than other bags. Type b royal Im not a big fan of I use other HEPA bags.
Les

 

[kirbylux77]

HEPA Cloth bags are definitely NOT a gimmick. They do work better than paper bags. I find I don't sneeze as much, don't see as much dust on furniture & don't have to vacuum the pre-filter on my Honeywell air purifier as much if I use a HEPA Cloth bag in a vacuum that doesn't have a HEPA exhaust filter, like my Kenmore EVPC canister or Royal Metal & Kirby uprights. In fact, HEPA Cloth bags, even generic ones, work so good that whenever I get asked for a vacuum recommendation for a allergy sufferer, I always say first that if there is a HEPA Cloth bag available for the vacuum to try it first before replacing the vacuum. While it doesn't capture the carbon dust on the exhaust, the HEPA Cloth bags will capture the majority of the fine dust that triggers allergies.

However, unlike some other members here, I have not found them to maintain the vacuum's suction or airflow better than paper micro-filtration bags. The ONLY bag I have found to be the exception to the rule is the Miele AirClean & Miele HyClean 9 layer HEPA Cloth bags - those bags are amazing in that you can stuff them full of dirt till 3/4 full & only then do you see suction & airflow drop off slightly, & no dust in the bag chamber either. Any other vacuum though, like my Kirby or Royal Metal uprights, use the paper micro-filtration bags in them & they maintain airflow just as well.

Kenny & MadMan - I disagree with you guys on the importance of keeping a sterile environment. Yes, a lot of people born years ago didn't have a allergic reaction if you vacuumed with a vacuum with no filtration that let off lots of dust. However, there are LOTS of kids being born these days that are allergic the moment they are born. Furthermore, what we know today is the dust in carpets is not healthy! And that's not just my opinion, that is a proven fact! There's a reason why leading environmental & government agencies say that indoor air quality in today's tightly sealed homes is a problem. Do you guys have ANY IDEA of the chemicals & processes used to manufacture carpeting? I bet you didn't know that FORMALDEHYDE, the same chemical used to preserve human corpses before burial, is used in the carpet manufacturing process, & remains in it & leaches into the indoor air after it is installed. Plus let's not forget the chemicals that leach out of plastics, finishes & painted surfaces. Your average vacuum is using this air to pick up dirt & dust, & then spreading all that dust & chemicals all over the house!

I see nothing wrong with letting kids be kids & letting them go outside & play in the dirt - but they shouldn't be breathing dusty air from a vacuum & being exposed to all those allergens. You should at the very least be using a vacuum with a HEPA Cloth bag, or a sealed HEPA filter on the exhaust, & if it's bagless empty the bin outside. I also think it's a good idea to have a HEPA air purifier running too. Yes, kids should be kids & you can't protect them from everything, but I see nothing wrong with taking a few preventative measures to reduce the chances of them developing allergies later on.

Mylesrom - I would be careful buying those Kenmore bags by Clean Fairy. Just because you don't see dust in the bag chamber does NOT mean they're not releasing dust into the air. Bill, Vaclab on YouTube, just did a test where he compared a Kirby HEPA Cloth charcoal lined bag with the Clean Fairy Kirby HEPA Cloth charcoal lined bag. His tests showed the Clean Fairy brand released a LOT more dust into the air than the genuine Kirby bag did. Sure, the performance of the Clean Fairy bag would have been OK if it had been used in a vacuum with a HEPA filter on the exhaust, but not on a direct air vacuum where the bag is the only filter. I also personally have bought a couple packs of the Clean Fairy Miele FJM bags, & I wasn't impressed with either the quality of the HEPA Cloth material used or the bag collar. I definitely won't be buying from them again.

Mark - Yes, you're right, the seal the bag collar makes with the vacuum when installing the bag is important. A HEPA Cloth bag will do no good if dust & dirt can leak around it inside the vacuum. The Kenmore canisters are a good example of a less than ideal bag collar & bag holder design. The reason why you constantly saw dust buildup in your Kenmore canisters using HEPA Cloth bags was because the bag collar would slide up slightly in the bag holder, & some dust & dirt wouldn't make it into the bag to be captured & filtered. I personally make it a point to tape the bag collar to the bag holder on my Kenmore canisters to decrease the chances of that happening.

Rob

 

[lesinutah]

Hmm

The riccar brand HEPA bags for rsl4 doesn't reduce suction, Kirby newest HEPA loses very small amounts. I don't have a Miele and seen there bags they look the most convenient and consumer friendly bags out right now. My compact doesn't lose air flow with HEPA bag. There are a few but it's alot healthier on vacuum with them. Les

 

[kloveland]

We are all different

with different levels of allergies. I can't make a generalization based on everyone. I don't think anybody can. I was just reading an article on Formaldehyde one of the remedies was to open a window. Which defeats the whole purpose of having a sterilized home in the first place. The article also said the levels of Formaldehyde are highest when products are new. Maybe some of these allergic kids are allergic because their environment is too sterile. I'm a not an allergist. I'm just guessing.

If a person is reasonably healthy the body's immune system should be healthy enough to fight off colds, etc. Go outside for a walk and breathe in some fresh air. lol!

 

[mark40511]

My cirrus upright

vacuum........I filled that bag up and if there was a loss of suction, it was VERY little. Now, on the Kenmore canister, I noticed a loss of suction as the bag filled. My Kenmore blue canister where the PN died, I use the vacuum as suction only for the garage, and I do TAPE the bag so that it doesn't slide off.....but I still feel like even with that, it doesn't make a tight enough seal like, say, an Electrolux canister. I get better results with the Electrolux paper bags keeping dust out of the bag chamber than I do the Hepa bags in the Kenmore canisters. That bag collar design has GOT TO GO.

 

[mylesrom]

KirbyLux77

I never said that the Clean Fairy or other generic hepa type bags were equal to Miele or Kirby original hepa bags...they are not. The question was are they a gimmick and my response was they are better than the paper bags, which they are. The original Kenmore paperbags always leak into the chamber. The Kenmore Progressive doesn't have a perfect seal at the neck connection anyways, so I would not spend 5 or 6 dollars a bag on them and I did have a couple of SVC hepa bags that came with the canister when I purchase it for 10 dollars. They were no better quality than the clean fairy bags. If I had a Kirby or Miele I would only use their original hepa bags... I wouldn't chance a Miele on generic hepa bags.

 

[mylesrom]

Vac Lab Videos

I watched his videos... Kirby Orignal Paper = 11,559. Clean Fairy hepa type, 1400 at 0.3. So even generic hepa type are better than paper. Though not as good as Original Kirby or Miele bags.

 

[mike811]

Miele GN bags


Miele GN bags are fantastic. They are very thick and airflow difference between empty and full bag is very small. Only 10 cfm loss with full bag.

 

[rivstg1]

Kirbylux77

on the point of Clean Fairy hepa bags.....even though the Kirby HEPA bags were much better in his testing, even HE stated that the CF bags were just fine ( he gave numbers to compare by)....the '1400' number for emissions is very small....nothing like paper bags. Just for clarity . I bought them and told someone else about them and then he sent Bill/Vaclab to test....and I have noticed no difference from a 'users' perspective compared to the genuine HEPA bags.

I did know about the formaldehyde issue in carpets....I worked in a air quality control for a brief time. SO I use ozone/neg ion generating machines to neutralize the out gassing of a new carpet/drapes/cloth furniture(less than 50ppm). Good points though you gave on that and indoor air quality!