Europe to cut power of vacuum cleaners to save energy

[rolls_rapide]

1000 Watt Uprights

I have no objection to a well designed clean-fan upright, which uses a 1000W motor. Electrolux and Hoover have made them in the past (Airstream, Turbopower 3). They were perfectly usable, had suitable suction power and were suited to a range of different surfaces and fabric types (NB: user-adjustable suction!), as well as having half decent on-board tools.

Nowadays you get a >2000W motor, no suction control, and Mickey Mouse tools that wouldn't complement any user scenario, let alone be suitable for a child's toy vacuum cleaner.

 

[sebo_fan]

I have no objection to any wattage - my argument is that back in the day 1000 watts could have been considered too high - but as consumers being eco-friendly was far from our minds at that point.

Benny - I will keep returning to the point that not everyone runs their vacuum daily and if they do it won't be for long periods - unless you live in a residential home, a hostel, a hotel, a B&B or any other commercial residence where traffic of people is a large number. Compared to the use of a fridge freezer, microwave, oven, kettle - even a hair dryer - all of which either use comparative or even higher wattage. That's my entire point - there's no need to worry about vacuum cleaner wattage when the existing appliances that are being used daily consume more power.

As for being quicker, I'd say I get a lot more done in dust pick up from my high wattage Sebo K1 2100 watt vacuum compared to say, a mains corded hand held vacuum whose suction runs out fairly quickly, but this could well be seen as "another variable."

 

[rolls_rapide]

Fridge-freezer

They don't use much at all. The induction motor is designed to work with low energy consumption. There may be frost-free defrosting which will consume a bit more electricity, but still much less than a two kiloWatt vacuum cleaner.

2000W in a hairdryer is ridiculous. Frazzled hair is bound to happen.
2000W in a vacuum is ridiculous. Torn curtains are bound to occur.

 

[floor-a-matic]

Why do today'svacuum cleaner motors need to have 12 AMPS? Older vacuums that have as little as 3 amps clean very well. I don't know why some people say that high-amp vacs outperform low-amp vacs; what REALLY makes a vac powerful is the ACTUAL DESIGN of the brush roller, nozzle & airflow or suction.

 

[sebo_fan]

In the same way that why do microwaves have to have the halo of 800 to 1000 watts when back in the 1970s, 400 watts was more than sufficient to heat up a cup of coffee or do quicker popcorn? Why do cars now still have gas guzzling engines despite eco-warnings and other brands offering eco-engines that don't have enough power to outrace a chasing cop car, but have better mileage.

As with those appliances, vacuums were much better built "back in the day," and in a more mass-level compared to the premium-expensive vacuums customers are made to believe are better built and designed- and in some cases they are. Unfortunately, it also means a higher power unless some brands offer eco-low power friendly models?

 

[rolls_rapide]

"you may as well be on about 1800 watt motors such as th

Yes, well, Miele has the good sense to fit variable power controls to their upright vacuums, so that curtains which are made of lightweight materials can be cleaned without damage. The same goes for delicate fabrics, such as silk lampshades, Chinese carpets, velour upholstery, brocade, etc.

Hoover and Electrolux used to fit variable power controls to their upright bagged cleaners, I can't understand why they no longer do so. It can't be cost, surely. I am left with the conclusion that it must be the lack of vision of the directors of both companies. The simple addition of a power control would make the machines much more usable.

 

[madabouthoovers]

I say its cost too. Most bagged uprights are now considered budget class as all and sundry wants a bagless cleaner. Budget class means no bells and whistles, or power controls either. Most bagless cleaners are now multi-cyclonic which dont work very well at lower powers, hence no power controls. No Dysons have power controls either, and this makes them a real pain when using the hose due to recoiling. Interesting the way that canister cleaners usually have power controls though - I think this is more to do with the fact that some of the floorheads can be really difficult to move over carpets on high power.
I'm surprised actually that Sebo never put a power control on the X series, as that would have been very handy when using the hose and dusing brush, where the bristles tend to get sucked in on themselves and block the dirt passageway through the centre of the brush.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Cost

I don't think it is cost. Cylinder cleaners have variable power, and manufacturers tend to churn them out ten-a-penny. No, something else is going on. I think it is lack of common sense, no vision and inexperience. Maybe it is apathy.

Who runs Hoover Floorcare, and who runs Electrolux Floorcare these days?

 

[sebo_fan]

Not that I don't agree with you Calum, but I just had a thought - rating plates. They tell the truth between the base rating and the highest rating where watts are concerned. What does the S7 say to you? It doesn't matter what Miele state on the dial, the real power usage gets shown on the rating plate of minimum and maximum. What the vacuum has in total, is what the brand states -outwardly, but the rating plate indicates the base bands and so forth -  so even if you have a "low" marked power dial on the S7, it could well use 1600 watts as its lowest power band - but then you may find what occurs to me regularly with my Miele.


 


I much prefer having an air outlet valve on handles when it comes to using hoses on some vacuums where the "lowest" settings proves to be too high. It is often the case for my Miele S6 Ecoline, where after half the bag is full, there is little suction on the first level that is strong enough to pull up shredded paper, thus requiring the next step up which is then too strong and requires the air valve to be opened for a better, gentler compromise. None of Sebo's cylinders have air outlet valves on the handle - or Bosch base line cylinder vacs for that matter  - but they don't need them since it appears the continous suction dial allows for infinite adjustment compared to stepped increments.


 


Steve - I used to find that with the upholstery brush on the X series too - until I realised you're supposed to flatten the brush out on surfaces for dusting so that the inner plastic wall (castle cut/edged for a reason) allows the suction to pull the dust off from the bristles. Miele's round brushes clog up and they also have an improved inner wall made up of a round "wavy" pattern of plastic - but I find they clog up more due to their smaller suction hole diameter; A possible reason to why Sebo retained the triangular design for the new D cylinders/canisters as the dust channel is bigger.


 


I think most brands have ceased power controls on uprights because they feel it would snatch sales away from their cylinder vacuum ranges - particularly if they have low sales anyway and are trying to push cylinders more than uprights. A classic example of this is Panasonic - and I've just purchased a low power 1300 watt cylinder Panasonic cylinder vac. It has variable suction on it and has a far more modern design than Pan's current UK upright bagged vacuums that only seem to increase year after year by 100 watts with nothing else added but a new colour to promote it. 


 


There are only a few brands out there who offer variable suction on uprights, because sales are healthy for both types of vacs they sell. Or, that's the way it appears to me.

 

[madabouthoovers]

The only two uprights I have with variable suction are my Miele S7510, and Sanyo SCA-7, which is a fair few years old, and a re-badged Panasonic of that time period. The Miele S6 is a very good canister for variable control, but has an adverse effect on the turbobrush rotation if the suction is turned down too low though. I think that one of the reasons why uprights dont have the power control is that most have only one motor for the suction and it drives the brushroll as well. If the power is reduced then the brushroll will spin slower too, possibly becoming jammed or stopped easier which would damage the motor. The S7 has a seperate brush motor so this spins the brushes at a constant speed regardless of the power of the suction motor. However - the lower power is only usually needed when using the tools so I cant see much of a problem in that respect.
Dyson dont offer power control on any of their canisters and some of the more budget range canisters dont either like the VAX essentials range.
The Henry has 2 speed motor control, but cheaper models like the James and the Basil didnt, and in the Henry, this autosave feature has only come about recently. Before 2006, I think even the Henry was only 1 speed.
I'm sure penny pinching has a lot to do with it as many companies are going this way since the recession to cut costs and maximise profits. Look at the Hoover TP1 compared to the Ranger or PowerPlus - after the recession of the early 80's, Hoover needed to cut costs so produced cleaners a lot cheaper in quality with all plastic and very little metal.
Incidentally, not many dirty fan models had power control - it was only something that appeared on the later clean air models after about 1983 starting with the famous Hoover sensotronic - now that was a cool cleaner for gadgets and lights.

 

[madabouthoovers]

Sebo-fan - having just looked at the triangular dusting brush for my X4 Extra, it doesnt have a castellated or serrated edge to the inner walls of the brush, they are flat all the way round. The Miele brush does have the inner walls as you describe though. Perhaps you have a different dusting brush for your Sebo. Mine has quite long bristles which completely enclose the centre section of the brush when suction is applied to it, and when cleaning up cat hairs, they all sick in the centre of the brush. Whilst I use the Sebo as a daily driver, there are some things about it that arent well designed and the brush is one of them. The fact that they use a 36.5 mm fitting and most of my other tools are either 32 or 35mm pees me off a little too as I feel that Sebo only do this so you have to pay them for their tools and you cant use anyone elses.

 

[sebo_fan]

Steve - I use the smaller dusting brush on my X1 - but I will agree, dusting brushes in general aren't well designed - they either lack brushes or have too much. 


 


However, even if Sebo do supply a different fitting - at least their tools can be used on every single model that Sebo produce - unlike Dyson.


 


On another note, I thought Dyson had variable suction on some of their past cylinder vacuums, or has it always been fixed? I consider most of Vax's range to be budget, but since you like the cheap of the cheap, it's no surprise to see Vax have fixed suction in their Essentials range. The Argos Value "fabric filter bagless" cylinder vac (and previously a Proaction label) does have variable suction, so it is possible to use it on the cheapest priced vacuum. 

 

[rolls_rapide]

Having power controls on uprights is not a black art - they've done it before and can do it again. The Electrolux 612 had a power control that you could turn down to a whisper and it still picked up dust. Very quiet it was too. Also a slower agitator can improve performance. Fast spinning brushes don't improve performance. (This has been talked about on a previous thread, where a member's grandfather's upright Panasonic was compared to an older or newer Panasonic with the same brush. The newer high-wattage model skipped across the surface; the older one groomed to a better standard. Further conversation also took place about Hoover and their disappearing 'Activator' nodules on the Purepowers).

Any modern vacuum data plate that I have seen, for example, states the Voltage (220-240V), and the Wattage (900-1000W). The 900W refers to the machine being used on a 220V circuit, as in Europe. The 1000W refers to being used on the British 240V system. You might even get a little boost in performance when the voltage rises to nearer 250V - as it can do. (This was apparently, the reason for the recent UK Bosch dishwasher recall, where the pcb couldn't tolerate over-voltage).

 

[sebo_fan]

I think having a variably controlled brush roll can just complicate things, although it is a good idea in theory. If it did exist on previous upright vacuums, then kudos to the brand for fitting it. 


 


TBH though, when I think about some past uprights I've owned, a variable suction control on the handle wouldn't really justify the power - the Oreck XL for example would struggle to supply enough puff without getting constantly clogged IF it had a low suction setting having to push enough air from its motor to blast the dust up the spine and into its massive dust bags. This reminds me of my old Electrolux Z517 where dust used to get clogged right at the top of the dust bag and stuck to the dust channel hole at the top of the bag. The orange Electrolux Z500 was better in this respect, but then I think it had a more powerful motor and proper variable suction as opposed to the daft air outlet slider/combined tool mount.


 


 


 

 

[rolls_rapide]

"If it did exist on previous upright vacuums..."

Of course it existed.

I honestly don't know where the trouble is in understanding that a suction motor fitted with variable speed control, also allows the belt driven agitator (on the same motor) to be similarly regulated. Thus, full suction power equals full agitator revolutions, and lowest suction power equates to the slowest agitator rotation.

Electrolux 612 & Airstream 1000: fully variable power regulator.
Selected Hoover Turbopowers had two-speed motors (Hi & Lo).
Turbopower 2 & 3 had three speeds (low power: green lamp, medium power: amber lamp, full power: red lamp).

Have you never used an upright with variable speed control?

 

[sebo_fan]

There's no "trouble in understanding." I have owned TP2 and TP3's that had the variably controlled brush roll via the preset buttons/rocker switches/whatever. My Dirt Devil Turbopower 2/3 with its 1100 watt motor had a variable suction control dial too. However, I find the whole idea ever so slightly pointless when a brush roll speeds up or slows down. If there's more suction available from a slide control or however you wish to use the idea, then that should be sufficient. Regulating the speed of the brush roll in my experience complicates things. There really isn't any need for it - another thing or issue that takes out more life out of the drive belt - and also having to put up with an increase of noise.

 

[rolls_rapide]

I don't think that there is any complication in agitator speed regulation.

Lesser suction power and correspondingly slower agitator speed is fine for lightweight rugs and mats.

Lower speed also means less noise - from both the air path and the agitator. "Which?" even commented on it decades ago, saying that a simple hose vent increases noise, whereas a speed control reduces noise.

 

[sebo_fan]

I think its far more simplistic to offer just variable suction and nothing more. I can recall my TP2 in the low mode had a tendency to clog on pet hair whenever the slow brush roll was used with the low suction. Far easier to just have a quicker brush roll speed and allow the low suction to deposit the dust into the bag. Hoover could have fitted a brush stop function whenever the vacuum was used for its hose in the upright position to save wear on the belt.

However, one must be prepared to know that the Panasonic uprights have never had height adjustment, only using the science of vacuum air between the floor head and the carpet to adjust gliding automatically. Therefore the only variable that exists is the difference between what the previous thread seems to claim that the pick up performance is better from the old model. What I don't know is if the brush rolls are different - having had Panasonic in the past, the current beater bristle bars are horribly thin bristles compared to the thicker brush roll that was fitted to my base white MC E41N. Thus, it could have been a contributing factor to offering better performance, not just guaranteed by a lower suction AND lower brush roll speed.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Panasonic MC-E40 Series

The original agitator for the MC-E40s was a helical beater bar and arranged opposite it by 180°, was a bristle brush. The edge brushes were soft 'fringed circles'.

They redesigned it to be the more modern sparsely populated, twin helix brush, and broken beater bars. The edge brushes on this one are similar to the rest of the agitator - sparse clumps. I had this one fitted when the original wore down on the belt pulley area, a couple of years after buying the machine.

I got the impression from that particular thread, that the same agitator was used in both the old slower machine, as well as the new quicker one. The comments went along the lines of: the modern machine was skimming over the surface of the carpet pile, whereas the slower machine correctly lifted the pile.

 

[anthony]

anyone else

sick of the Ryan /jamie tit for tat thing thing .They get on my Fxxxing nerves .cant we just gag the pair of them