vintagerepairer
Well-known member
Yes Parwaz
It was exactly as you described, nothing technical to it at all.
It was exactly as you described, nothing technical to it at all.
Dysons Twice the Suction claim - is it true?
- Thread starter hi-loswitch98
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alexhoovers94
Well-known member
To be honest
Dyson stole the cyclone idea that someone else already invented and then shoved it in a vacuum...Dyson were no better than Hoover.
Dyson stole the cyclone idea that someone else already invented and then shoved it in a vacuum...Dyson were no better than Hoover.
gsheen
Well-known member
You can bet your bottom dollar that Dyson buys every single upright on the market and tests it, Even when I worked at Electrolux we did that. Its an important part of the development process. Any one who has worked in the engineering dep at a vacuum company will be able to tell you of the rooms filled with competitors vacuums. ( hoovers Vault ? )
One thing you guys do have very wrong, Dyson did not steal the idea of a cyclone and put it into a vacuum. He was inspired by the idea but it sure was not simple. Those big industrial cyclones work with positive pressure, They are all but useless at filtering out fine ( like household ) dust. A vacuum works on Negative pressure ( hence vacuum ).
In-fact dyson didn't use A cyclone he used two ( hence dual cyclone ) and later more. a single cyclone vacuum is all but useless, ever used a Electroluc /Eurek Pet lover ? the filter clogs instantly that is a cyclone vacuum.
Love or hate dyson he changed the face of vacuum cleaners forever and that is a good thing, I would hate to see were we would be now had he sold the Idea to Hoover or Electrolux who would have just buried the idea. Engineers were stuck with simply putting in a bogger motor and changing colors. Dyson got vacuum manufacturer to start thinking again, first they copied now they are coming up with their own ideas again. All in all this is a great thing for the consumer
One thing you guys do have very wrong, Dyson did not steal the idea of a cyclone and put it into a vacuum. He was inspired by the idea but it sure was not simple. Those big industrial cyclones work with positive pressure, They are all but useless at filtering out fine ( like household ) dust. A vacuum works on Negative pressure ( hence vacuum ).
In-fact dyson didn't use A cyclone he used two ( hence dual cyclone ) and later more. a single cyclone vacuum is all but useless, ever used a Electroluc /Eurek Pet lover ? the filter clogs instantly that is a cyclone vacuum.
Love or hate dyson he changed the face of vacuum cleaners forever and that is a good thing, I would hate to see were we would be now had he sold the Idea to Hoover or Electrolux who would have just buried the idea. Engineers were stuck with simply putting in a bogger motor and changing colors. Dyson got vacuum manufacturer to start thinking again, first they copied now they are coming up with their own ideas again. All in all this is a great thing for the consumer
Woodshop-industrial cyclones-Went to two high schools-thus two shop dust catcher systems involving cyclones.First one-at the old Central High School in Rapid City S.Dak-the cyclone system was indeed positive pressure-the debris from the machines and floor sweeps-went thru the suction fan(Direct air)us guys loved to sweep or throw small wood blocks into the floor sweeps and listen to them go CLANG thru the fan.You would then hear the pieces go thru the cyclone.At the base of the cyclone aws a bin for the coarse bits-then a bag filter for the fines.At the new high school-Stevens High-the system was clean air-the motor on top of the cyclone-the debris from the machines went thru the cyclone then to the bin under it-had an air seal.The blower motor discharge blew into a baghouse like filter with a lever you moved to shake the filters to dump the fines into another bin.One of my jobs was emptying both of the units.The new unit the cyclone would be under suction-or negative pressure.Hence the seals for the bin at the base.So the items would no longer clatter thru the blower fan-sort of spoiled our fun!Would love to see the fan in that older unit-thick it was turned by a 7Hp motor.The new one was 5Hp.The old shop had more machines and sweeps.Was trying to remember the brands-think the new one was like "Sea Breeze" or something-old one--Torit.
blakaeg
Well-known member
Dyson have been claiming a lot for years and it's not true.
I cleaned the filters on my Dyson DC24 and the suction has improved a lot. The filter on top of the bin gets HEAVILY coated in fine dust from where the inner cyclones have not filtered the dust and in turn this does affect the suction on my DC24, which hasn't the best suction to start with. Shame they never got the design right on the DC24. I have to out up with the brushbar and end cap wearing every 6 months or so and the cleaner head starts to sound like a pneumatic drill and vibrates so much, the brushbar no longer cleans effectively until I put a new one in and then it's quiet again and cleans properly with the feel of suction on the carpet. When it plays up it doesn't seem to really agitate the carpet much.
Dyson did change the face of vacuum cleaners and has a lot of others copying their designs. I still prefer the older models somehow and the only ball machine I like is the DC24 an DC25's. I see no advantage to the newer ones having no release pedal and the plastic wand isn't something I'm keen on.
I do find Dyson uprights good on hard floors but I never really believe Dysons claims anymore like I once did.
I cleaned the filters on my Dyson DC24 and the suction has improved a lot. The filter on top of the bin gets HEAVILY coated in fine dust from where the inner cyclones have not filtered the dust and in turn this does affect the suction on my DC24, which hasn't the best suction to start with. Shame they never got the design right on the DC24. I have to out up with the brushbar and end cap wearing every 6 months or so and the cleaner head starts to sound like a pneumatic drill and vibrates so much, the brushbar no longer cleans effectively until I put a new one in and then it's quiet again and cleans properly with the feel of suction on the carpet. When it plays up it doesn't seem to really agitate the carpet much.
Dyson did change the face of vacuum cleaners and has a lot of others copying their designs. I still prefer the older models somehow and the only ball machine I like is the DC24 an DC25's. I see no advantage to the newer ones having no release pedal and the plastic wand isn't something I'm keen on.
I do find Dyson uprights good on hard floors but I never really believe Dysons claims anymore like I once did.
super-sweeper
Well-known member
you believed that crap Dyson told you!?
A Dyson barely has enough suction to begin with! I'm going to have to find an airwatt meter what-you-ma-call-it thingy, and start 'Disproving Dyson!'
ANY and all vacuums are capable of losing suction, especially a Dyson! If you backed a Dyson over with a truck would it still be such a Willy-Nilly suction-keeping vacuum? Nope! David Oreck tested his vacuums the same way, and guess what? The Oreck worked fine! Even the faithful HOOVER could loose suction over forgetting to change the bag after vacuuming up wet cement (hopefully I will remember to change the bag on that U4056S the next time I use it!)
A Dyson barely has enough suction to begin with! I'm going to have to find an airwatt meter what-you-ma-call-it thingy, and start 'Disproving Dyson!'
ANY and all vacuums are capable of losing suction, especially a Dyson! If you backed a Dyson over with a truck would it still be such a Willy-Nilly suction-keeping vacuum? Nope! David Oreck tested his vacuums the same way, and guess what? The Oreck worked fine! Even the faithful HOOVER could loose suction over forgetting to change the bag after vacuuming up wet cement (hopefully I will remember to change the bag on that U4056S the next time I use it!)
yes, ALL of them have the
competitors. That HOOVER vault was packed.... with their own AND a room with the other species.
competitors. That HOOVER vault was packed.... with their own AND a room with the other species.
In my opinion, the DC01 models to the DC25 are the best. No other.
A Dyson DC07 with the later cyclone will be suitable for Blakaeg because you hardly need to wash the filter, it rarely gets dirty! This is only for the late DC07 models.
Also, the Dyson DC07 and DC14 are the most powerful Dyson vacuums ever made! They have the most suction, and they stick to the floor well. Especially the non clutched models.
The most reliable Dyson DC04 in my opinion is the Silver lime model. They has the good and reliable Italian Ametek motor fitted to it, which is why you dont see many burnt out DC04 lime models. The clutch DC04's do have a good motor, but not as reliable as the DC04 silver lime one.
A Dyson DC07 with the later cyclone will be suitable for Blakaeg because you hardly need to wash the filter, it rarely gets dirty! This is only for the late DC07 models.
Also, the Dyson DC07 and DC14 are the most powerful Dyson vacuums ever made! They have the most suction, and they stick to the floor well. Especially the non clutched models.
The most reliable Dyson DC04 in my opinion is the Silver lime model. They has the good and reliable Italian Ametek motor fitted to it, which is why you dont see many burnt out DC04 lime models. The clutch DC04's do have a good motor, but not as reliable as the DC04 silver lime one.
turbo500
Well-known member
you hardly need to wash the filter, it rarely gets dirty!
That's because all the dust gets stuck in the top cyclones on the DC07 and cuts the airflow that way. The only way to resolve this, is to dismantle the cyclone assembly. Dyson fixed this issue on the DC14 by flipping the root cyclones over, so that the wider end of the cyclone was at the top. The 07 is notorious for blocking up with hair and dust.
Dyson can claim that his cleaners have more suction power all he likes. It's probably true. As Benny pointed out, he's not going to spend thousands suing (sp) other companies for false advertising and then do it himself. But James Dyson is NOT a vacuum designer. He's an engineer. A good one. The cyclone in a Dyson is second to none. But he's knows sweet FA about cleaning a carpet. That's why a 250w Hoover Junior will out-clean a 1200w DC01.
There is far too much focus on suction power, but Mr. D has completely ignored other factors that clean carpets, such as grooming and agitation.
And that's not even considering the fact that consumers are paying £300+ for a cheap heap of malaysian made, leaky creaky plastic and a screaming motor, but don't even get me started on that.
That's because all the dust gets stuck in the top cyclones on the DC07 and cuts the airflow that way. The only way to resolve this, is to dismantle the cyclone assembly. Dyson fixed this issue on the DC14 by flipping the root cyclones over, so that the wider end of the cyclone was at the top. The 07 is notorious for blocking up with hair and dust.
Dyson can claim that his cleaners have more suction power all he likes. It's probably true. As Benny pointed out, he's not going to spend thousands suing (sp) other companies for false advertising and then do it himself. But James Dyson is NOT a vacuum designer. He's an engineer. A good one. The cyclone in a Dyson is second to none. But he's knows sweet FA about cleaning a carpet. That's why a 250w Hoover Junior will out-clean a 1200w DC01.
There is far too much focus on suction power, but Mr. D has completely ignored other factors that clean carpets, such as grooming and agitation.
And that's not even considering the fact that consumers are paying £300+ for a cheap heap of malaysian made, leaky creaky plastic and a screaming motor, but don't even get me started on that.
madaboutsebo
Well-known member
I have to agree with you Chris on what one about Mr D focusing too much on suction power! I wouldn't of quite a few years ago as I once believe all what he was about in terms of his vacuum cleaners until I got my SEBO Felix and started to dig deeper into how a vacuum cleaner works in terms of performance etc...
I think his vacuums are becoming to complex and over engineered for what they need to be! He needs to go back to the drawing board and back to basics and design a simple but effective machine. What he has achieved and what he is about and how he and his team of Engineers have improved the cyclone technology over the years and come out with new technology too is great. But the vacuum cleaner is more that just filtering the dust and dirt it's about more than that IMO.
I think his vacuums are becoming to complex and over engineered for what they need to be! He needs to go back to the drawing board and back to basics and design a simple but effective machine. What he has achieved and what he is about and how he and his team of Engineers have improved the cyclone technology over the years and come out with new technology too is great. But the vacuum cleaner is more that just filtering the dust and dirt it's about more than that IMO.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
ONE other aspect that Dyson seems to get away with other brands copying is weight - Dyson's idea of "lightweight" promises appears to be 7kg with some of their cylinder vacs.
When you consider that a twice as bagged capacity cylinder vac from any of the German brands can total 5kg, Dyson really must be thinking buyers aren't reading any of the specs or trying out other vacuums in store, despite their lengthy marketing campaigns.
When you consider that a twice as bagged capacity cylinder vac from any of the German brands can total 5kg, Dyson really must be thinking buyers aren't reading any of the specs or trying out other vacuums in store, despite their lengthy marketing campaigns.
turbo500
Well-known member
It's like I've said before, Jon, Dyson's success lies purely in clever marketing and not in actual product. Dyson created a problem for people that next existed.
Generally speaking, most bagged vacuums do not lose enough suction to reduce performance so dramatically that the machine doesn't pick up. The machine will still pick up the same amount with a full bag as it does with an empty one.
And lets face it, who REALLY gave a flying fig about emptying a vacuum bag? We just got on with it. Bag, bin, done. Infact, disposable paper bags were added to vacuums to make them easier to empty. Prior to this, all vacuums had cloth shake out bags. And then we took the bags away again? Bit of a step back.
But Dyson's "Say goodbye to the bag" campaign tapped into a gap in the market. It planted a teeny tiny seed of doubt in consumers minds, that grew and grew into something so big that the market was completely taken by storm. DC01's were flying off the shelves, but they really weren't all that good. The suction is poor, the build quality isn't great, the brushroll is pathetic. There were other, cheaper, higher performing and better made machines available at the time from Hoover, Electrolux, Panasonic and Hitachi, but still the lowest performing and most expensive cleaner was the one that was selling. All due to marketing.
In credit to Mr. D, his very clever campaign worked. He's a very intellegent man and knows what he's doing. But sadly, his understanding of promotion hasn't meant his vacuums are actually any good.
Generally speaking, most bagged vacuums do not lose enough suction to reduce performance so dramatically that the machine doesn't pick up. The machine will still pick up the same amount with a full bag as it does with an empty one.
And lets face it, who REALLY gave a flying fig about emptying a vacuum bag? We just got on with it. Bag, bin, done. Infact, disposable paper bags were added to vacuums to make them easier to empty. Prior to this, all vacuums had cloth shake out bags. And then we took the bags away again? Bit of a step back.
But Dyson's "Say goodbye to the bag" campaign tapped into a gap in the market. It planted a teeny tiny seed of doubt in consumers minds, that grew and grew into something so big that the market was completely taken by storm. DC01's were flying off the shelves, but they really weren't all that good. The suction is poor, the build quality isn't great, the brushroll is pathetic. There were other, cheaper, higher performing and better made machines available at the time from Hoover, Electrolux, Panasonic and Hitachi, but still the lowest performing and most expensive cleaner was the one that was selling. All due to marketing.
In credit to Mr. D, his very clever campaign worked. He's a very intellegent man and knows what he's doing. But sadly, his understanding of promotion hasn't meant his vacuums are actually any good.
hi-loswitch98
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Generally speaking, most bagged vacuums do not lose enough s
That is right. Especially with Miele, Sebo & Numatic Cleaners where you can fill the bag to the point where it feels like a brick & you will only loose a bit of suction. Plus, a triple-layer or more vacuum bag will act as a filter too.
That is right. Especially with Miele, Sebo & Numatic Cleaners where you can fill the bag to the point where it feels like a brick & you will only loose a bit of suction. Plus, a triple-layer or more vacuum bag will act as a filter too.
I have packed my Sebo,Meile,Riccar,Kirby Filtrete type bags to be like bricks before replacement.So bagless machines have no appeal to me.Have a few in my collection--but don't use them.
madaboutsebo
Well-known member
So true Chris I've read comments like that before their very clever with their marketing! Something I've noticed more and more in recent years. I was one of them that got sucked into all that clever marketing (excuse the pun!).
I don't regret going back to bags or do it's emptying bins and washing filters. I've not noticed any dramatic lost in suction using a bag vacuum. The leaps in bag technology means bags filter better allow air to flow through them better and allow them to fill to the top so they are like a brick! Like you say bag bin done easy no mess quick and simple off you go again with a new bag to fill. Love the synthetic bags I'm using on my SEBO Felix.
I don't regret going back to bags or do it's emptying bins and washing filters. I've not noticed any dramatic lost in suction using a bag vacuum. The leaps in bag technology means bags filter better allow air to flow through them better and allow them to fill to the top so they are like a brick! Like you say bag bin done easy no mess quick and simple off you go again with a new bag to fill. Love the synthetic bags I'm using on my SEBO Felix.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
The thing is, Dyson probably knows that his products aren't the best built - he's in it for the money, after all. He's carved a pretty good niche with other products like the Air Blade and that oval heater thing.
hi-loswitch98
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I'm with you madaboutsebo, it's so easy just to take a bag out, put in the bin & put a new one in. Plus, bagless dust cups won't fit in my bin lid, so I have to physically remove the bin lid, which is a pain.
It was recommended by Hoover in their instructions that for Asthma Sufferers was to get a carrier bag & secure it halfway around the bin then empty. Sounds kind of pointless if you ask me because with a bag machine that's all done for you, & you don't have to empty the Vacuum after each use
It was recommended by Hoover in their instructions that for Asthma Sufferers was to get a carrier bag & secure it halfway around the bin then empty. Sounds kind of pointless if you ask me because with a bag machine that's all done for you, & you don't have to empty the Vacuum after each use
turbo500
Well-known member
bagless dust cups won't fit in my bin lid
Errr..do you not empty them straight into the outside bin?
Errr..do you not empty them straight into the outside bin?
hi-loswitch98
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Well, when you have to go down a flight of stairs & outside where the bin is unsheltered & it's blowing a gail? Eeer, no.
That's why now I empty them into a carrier bag then put into the regular bin but I still get into contact with dust.
That's why now I empty them into a carrier bag then put into the regular bin but I still get into contact with dust.
madaboutsebo
Well-known member
It certainly is hi-loswitch98 less messy. I agree with you there pointless emptying a bagless bin into a carrier bag when a bag vacuum it's already done for you. Come to think I probably did that with my Dyson's on occasion if I didn't empty straight into the dust bin. Which made a mess of the dust bin too nice bit of airborne dust when putting other rubbish in yuk! Probably why I used a carrier bag! Pointless. That's true no emptying each time or more regularly than a bagged machine.
