Direct air motor vs Clean air motors

[kirbysthebest]

Turbo.
Way off the point my friend. But since you asked, in my almost 60 years of pushing vacuum cleaners--yes, i probably have pushed just about everyone at one time or another. I have been in a home and seen women cry when I show them the pile of dirt, not a dirt pad, a pile of dirt I pulled from her "clean" carpet.

Generally the Direct Air machines, Kirby, Royal, Old school Hoovers, Sanitaire have been doing reliable, and decent jobs of cleaning for many years. The Clean air, or bypass machine didn't evolve until much more recently in vacuum history, they are not bad machines; and no one said they were. If I could get a Hoover Dial-a-Matic you would have to pry my dead fingers off of it. I would also love to get a Miele Upright and will have one someday as they are very impressive. that is not the point of this conversation.

But the purpose of this discussion was not to bash or trash anyone, it was just a general I wonder type of thought.

Lighten up--this was a fun discussion, not meant to be advisarily against some other brand or design.

BTW-I have never sued any vacuum, so you are one up on me there.

 

[turbomaster1984]

typo - used not sued.

You need to lighten up and realise Kirby isn't necessary the best given that theres been millions of different models produced all over the world over the past hundred years so theres no way you have used every one.

This is a forum and anyone can challenge broad statements like those made here today especially when they may not actually be true. Your 60 years experience should of taught you that.

 

[marcusprit]

If there is a cleaner that will clean deeper than a Kirby, Royal or Riccar Radiance I'd love to try it out.

 

[kirbysthebest]

I've been extremely busy

Again I ask you to present evidence to the contrary. Since I did not make a broad statement--you did.

Do you know what "compete head to head" means? This means they are in the same class, doesn't mean they are better, worse or indifferent. There were only three not a Million brands named in this statement.

Funny thing about age, the now vintage machines we speak of; I actually got to use when they were new. Bummer.

My Mom had not one but two Corvairs, some on this forum probably don't even know what a Chevy Corvair is without Googling.

And I said Almost 60 years--don't rush me.

 

[sptyks]

Here is a video of a 26 year old Kirby Legend cleaning up a big mess.


 


I'd like to see a bypass air that can beat this:


 

 

[marcusprit]

I recognise that carpet haha

 

[parwaz786]

Here's a torture test with my Dyson DC14.
I think it did pretty good for a clean air vacuum, but air am not saying its the best.

http://https//m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxZkbR1aQ0k

 

[daknx1994]

After having used all three, I agree with Mark that Kirby, Royal, and Tacony Tandem Air Machines are some of the best deep cleaners out there. One thing that does help improve pick up is the type of bag that is used. I have began to use the hepa bags in my Kirby Ultimate G and I could tell a difference when I put the new bag on the unit. As soon as I turned it on the whoosh of air being sucked into the unit was greater than using the paper bags.

I think a good contender to these models that is a clean air is a Rainbow. I have both a D4 as well as an E2 Platinum. I dry clean my carpets and I use to use Capture, but was not happy with how it turned to a powder and I would have to use multiple bags while cleaning it up. When I got my platinum, I went over one half of the house that had been cleaned with Capture, and there a generous coating of Capture in the water basin of the rainbow and more heavier granules at the bottom of the water. And this was after going over the carpet with both a Hoover Elite and a Sanitaire with Vibra-Groomer and both having fresh new bags.

 

[jade_angel]

The Legend 2 is hard to beat, yeah. Great machine, IMHO the best Kirby ever (well, I've never used an Avalir, but...). I can think of a few clean-air machines that could replicate what it did there easily enough - all the full-size Tacony canisters and their full-size clean-air uprights, for example - but it does require some of the better ones out there to play in the same league.


My own completely unscientific test is the carpet close to the cat pan. The kitties track litter onto it, so it's always full of grit, and due to kitty-proximity, also fur. My Simplicity 6970, Kirby Heritage II and Simplicity Verve can all get enough out that I don't hear any more rattling after two strokes. The Filter Queen with EBK360 and Simplicity Freedom take three, and the FQ with the original PN seems to take four. Totally unscientific, as I said. I'd like to try a cheap plastivac on that... My brother's got one that needs repairing (a Bissell with a stretched-out belt and a fan full of dust pack) - maybe I should repair it for him and test that. I bet it'll still be rattling after more than four strokes.

 

[sebo_fan]

Oh dear god.

So, does everyone have the same kind of carpet worldwide?

Or are we just being fooled into believing that Kirby is indeed the best on ALL carpeted types?

End of the day, I agree with Rob (Turbomaster) AND of the points that I have raised.

To me, the tests of vacuum versus vacuum is never going to prove anything more than which one has a better brush roll or which one might have a better bag capacity.

No one has yet mentioned anything about different carpet textures - surely to god that has to be taken into consideration as well?

After all, with brand new carpet, there would be far much more light fibre taken off compared to an older piece of test carpet, where a fairer pick up would show far more transparent results, particularly if "deep down grit" was laid down for vacuums to pick up.

And when does it become apparent as to how many sweeps are required to pick up sand before the damage in the carpet actually sets in?

 

[kirbysthebest]

Dereck


When I bought my house it has a very thick saxony plush in the living room, dining, and hall.  


 


I know the ladies I bought it from had a good vacuum, I saw it in the closet, a very well known brand.  The house was spotless, so I knew they cleaned well and regularly.


 


Well I began vacuuming and started pulling bags, I mean bags of this gray powder from the carpet.  There was so much that I actually took it to a carpet store and asked if the carpet were disintegrating or the padding turning to powder or something.


"No" the guy told me, "It looks like they cleaned the carpet with capture."  After I kid you not five bags of the stuff I started getting down to normal everyday dirt after that.    That stuff burries itself in the carpet.  


 


 


****


Hope this doesn't start another war from the contrary, I was only validating the remarks of another member. 


 


 

 

[daknx1994]

Harley I agree with you. I wanted to try something different and decided to try Capture since we sell it at work. I just was not happy with how it turned into a very fine powder almost like plaster dust. After I would clean with the Capture I would vacuum the carpet with a Hoover Elite, and then a shakeout bag Sanitaire. When I went over the same carpet with my Rainbow, I was truly upset with how much powder was STILL in the carpet. Long story short, I now use Host.

Nar, I see where you are coming from. All of our experiences for the most part are on our own carpeting so it is true that what might work for one will not completely work for another. I do agree that there are some vacuums that are not suitable for all carpets. The thing I do like about Sebo and Kirby is that they both offer soft, delicate brushrolls for the more expensive and delicate carpeting.

 

[ralph123]

Based on the Kirby salespitch, which cannot possibly be misleading or deceptive, if you vacuum with the customers old vacuum - half full bag or whatever, and follow with the Kirby - if you even pick up a spec of dirt missed by the first vacuum, the Kirby is superior.

Surely the same methodology can be used to test the Kirby. So first vacuum with the Kirby and follow up with a new Rainbow. (I mention Rainbow since I recently saw a Rainbow video on youtube picking up dirt clearly missed by a Kirby). Thus based on Kirby's own methodology, I would have to assume that the clean air Rainbow is superior. One can justify it by saying that the Rainbow doesn't clog like the Kirby and lose air flow as the bag fills.

 

[ralph123]

Furthermore, any test of supposed Kirby supremacy must be done with a bag. It must also be done with various dirt loads. Kirby's have big bags, and customers don't change the bag every time they use them. Some use the same bag for 3-6 months. It is a myth that tests must be done with an empty bag. The only requirement for a fair test is that each vacuum is similarly. For example, it is perfectly fair to compare a Kirby's performance with a nearly full (less than full line) to that of a Rainbow or Dyson, because that's how they are used in real life. Sure you can compare to a Kirby with an empty bag, but that's not "normal" use. In normal use, the Rainbow/Dyson start with no dirt.

So if you want to test a Kirby versus a Rainbow/Dyson, there's nothing wrong with sucking up say 10, 20, 32, 64, 96, or even 128 ounces of dirt in each prior to starting the test. You can then dump the Rainbow/Dyson because that's how they are used in practice. then run your test to see if the Kirby really is superior.

The Kirby's performance will degrade as the bag fills, so it must be tested at multiple dirt loads to measure real life performance. I think the Hoover Windtunnel has a pretty good record in testing against Kirby.

 

[kirbysthebest]

Ralphie/Jeff

I do understand that your mission is to insult and ridicule other members on the board, and I just want to let you know you are doing a fine job.

I am typing this really slowly in hopes you will be able to keep up, but if you have problems maybe someone at the Independent Living Center can help you sound out the big words.

The Title of this thread is Direct Air Vs Clean Air.
Though the original poster did mention Kirby in his post, it was not to prove their superiority, in fact the OP is actually not a Kirby fan. Yes the two machines you mentioned Rainbow and Dyson are indeed what you would consider a clean air machine though one is actually a cannister.

If you want to conduct this non-scientific test and prove superiority here is what I would suggest for you to do.

1. Buy some new carpet, get enough yardage as to provide you new, clean pieces for each test.
2. Weigh the now cut to size and clean carpet.
3. Now place a predetermined amount of sand, ground nut shells etc as your test media
4. Now weigh the carpeting again with the test media
5. Mount this carpet to a board with padding underneath to better simulate real life.
6. Plug in the test machine
7. Make sure if the test machine is a bagged machine that it has a CLEAN bag installed properly and according to normal operating instructions.
8. Turn on the machine and adjust the machine to the carpet to be cleaned. Don't forget to engage the brushroll.
9. Make the number of passes you are going to use for each test and try to have the passes at the same rate and speed.
10. Turn off the machine.
11. Remove the test carpet from the mounting.
12. Weigh the carpet after the test.

Now here's the hard part because it will require numbers as well.
13. Subtract the ending weight from the beginning weight.
You now have approximately how much was removed from the carpet by a certain vacuum. The reason I approximate is there will be some degree of carpet fibers etc removed by hungry aggressive machines that live to destroy precious carpet fibers. This will not, however, have an effect on your test because you are going to mount a new piece of carpet for the next test and the new machine has an equal opportunity to eat the delicate carpet that more than likely should have only been cleaned by angel wings and fairy dust to begin with.

Now this test will not demonstrate "he who goes first loses" because there will only be one machine cleaning, that will be your test machine. You will only test the amount of dirt removed by weight by doing that pesky subtraction. If you want to do the percentages, well that is going to involve more of those number things so you can omit if you have too.


Repeat as many times an you feel the need.
Please report your results.

And I have found on this site that if you have a poster that just bugs you, then you can block them and you won't have to see their post any longer.
That is what I am doing now.



[this post was last edited: 2/25/2015-14:13]

 

[marcusprit]

That it a good method Harley I might try that

 

[sebo_fan]

Its a handy list but you forget to add "Use a test machine that has never been used before."

My original thought still applies - you can test any 2 old/used vacuums together with fresh bags or 2 any old bagless uprights and fresh filters; but it is what inside it FIRST that can easily make the testing void when it comes to pick up.

Both vacuums have to be new, both vacuums have to be unused. I wonder how many videos online indicate true testing like this? More worringly, those who worry about it are going on a "sold as seen" campaign.

 

[ralph123]

I don't recall the exact amount of dust load, but I can remember Dyson advertising that after 10oz of dust (or whatever the amount was), that there was a significant drop in air flow for some competing bagged vacuums. Provided both vacuums are treated the same, there is no need to always test with empty bags. It certainly gives the bagged vacuums an advantage. Testing with empty bags provides information, but so does testing at various dirt loads. Put both test vacuums in canister mode and suck up 10 oz of dust and re-run the test. Also, provided both vacuums are tuned up and of similar age, the test can still be informative (but with increased variability). Many have argued that Consumer Reports should retest the machines after say 6 months of normal household use, and I agree with them.

Consider a vacuum like a Sebo with a geared belt. It's performance doesn't degrade as does a vacuum with a stretchable belt. Should the test reward the vacuum with the belt that stretches over time? If you are testing a vacuum that doesn't lose suction/airflow versus one that does, why is it only "fair" to test with an empty bag. The bagged vacuum may be superior for the first 8 oz of dirt, but the test doesn't tell you if the bagless is superior after that.

 

[sebo_fan]

If you test something that has clean bags, clean filter, clean bin, clean brush roll, everything clean - then surely you'll get fairer test findings.

Im not entirely sure why you are presenting the idea of the SEBO's geared belt driven brush roll compared to a vacuum with a stretchable belt though. Its performance can degrade, as can the brush roll fitted with a stretchable belt - i.e threads that get wrapped around the brush roll and anything that gets clogged on the brush roll surely weakens both belts - not to mention also crushing the bristles which can further impede pick up. The geared belt may not snap the first time around, but in time it will if its brush roll continually gets clogged or weakens the hold.

 

[kirbysthebest]

You do bring up some very valid points. Most households, ok, no household puts a new bag in every time they vacuum, so the vacuum that is wonderful may not be so great as it fills up.

Depending on the vac, and the bag material I notice less drop off with the HEPA style fabric bags than I do the paper. Exception is the multi-layered filterete bags, also the Envirocare bags tend to keep going with little noticeable drop in performance. A great deal of what I clean up is pet hair which tends to not clog the bag too much anyway, much less than fine powder.

Now I don't change bags every time I vacuum, but I do change well before they reach the full mark, and always before the change bag indicator comes on so I have never personally used a full bag.