Brittle ABS Plastic

[desiredname]

Today I was working on a Dyson that I bought from a thrift store to clean up and resell. When I brought it home I set it on the floor and noticed a piece of plastic broke off. I took a closer look and pressed my finger on another piece and It broke off with no effort at all. I could tell the whole thing was extremely brittle. I took it outside and gently pressed my foot on the front of the floor head. It literally turned to little pieces under my foot with very little effort. This has been my experience with abs on multiple occasions. I wonder why this happens.

 

[huskyvacs]

Same as vintage Macintosh computers, Saturn's SC and SW series cars, and other related miscellany that used it from the late 80s through the late 90s. It was a new and innovative cheap damage resistant plastic back then and very tough.

However the binder they used to hold the plastic together does not age well and after 15-20 years it starts breaking down and decomposing through just natural air exposure and gets fragile.

All early Dysons suffer from this, mainly because Sir Dyson refused to use a sealant on the plastic as well as the plastic itself aging, a sealant would have at least held it together better. You have to be very careful with them and not bang them around or run them into things. Not sure why for whatever reason you continued to break parts off it intentionally - parts for these are very expensive for these early Dysons and hard to find - they do not show up on eBay often. It cost me $65 for a new (used) front shroud for my DC07 alone and that was after 2 years of hunting and waiting for one to pop up again.

 

[desiredname]

Interesting, it's too bad they didn't use a better binder.This Dyson was so fragile that it was cracking under it's own weight. I figured I couldn't sell it to someone in that condition. I saved the motor,clutch and cord for other Dyson projects. It was amusing to be able to poke my finger through it in any spot I pressed on though haha. It reminded me of badly rotten wood.

 

[human]

Built-in obsolescence at its finest. That's why I prefer metal machines,

 

[singingrainbow]

An interesting problem

I've seen my fair share of older dysons like that (not to mention old kenmores, panasonics, sharps, old computers and electronics etc) with this problem.

Usually there are two main causes (for ABS in particular), UV rays don't generally interact well with polymers. UV rays can oxidize the polymers changing the color and material properties making them more brittle. Second, many ABS formulations use bromine as a fire retardant additive which overtime has a tendency to diffuse back out of the polymer and appear on the surface. That color change is most noticeable on lighter colored plastics (dyson gray or purple for example).

It's definitely annoying, but represents an interesting challenge in terms of preserving certain machines.

 

[vacuumdevil]

This is super normal for older plastic machines.

particularly Dyson had problems UV light could break it down very fast.

If the machine was not one of the standard yellow or purple colors they actually had problems under warranty with them becoming brittle and breaking.

 

[desiredname]

Vacuumdevil

Do you think this will also effect newer products made with ABS or have most manufacturers addressed the issue with better additives?

 

[oreck_xl]

I wonder if the early G-Force and Cyclon have the same issues with the plastic disintegrating?

 

[gregvacs28]

As much as I like the plastic stuff, if it discolors, becomes brittle, or literally disintegrates into dust.... no fun in that.

Metal stuff might have get rusty but can be cleaned and painted.

But even vacs that have a metal body, there are lots of plastic parts. If they disintegrate, what good is the rest of it.

We need to have improved desk top manufacturing to easily replace parts.

 

[fan-of-fans]

I agree UV in particular exacerbates the problem. I've had a few vacuums with plastic that had faded to a yellow color, and the glossy outer layer had revealed a chalky texture. Usually I just part them out, since they weren't anything too special.

Also I have noticed the issue on older plastic bladed box fans. It seems to happen if they were in a garage or shed, or somewhere that wasn't temperature controlled. The blades did the same thing, glossy white surface changed to chalky finish that would scratch if you scraped at it. Sometimes edges would be chipped and blades would seem fragile and thin, like the bonding agent was gone.

I also noticed sometimes they would get mildew from damp environments, not sure if that caused the problem or not. Like the mildew dissolving something in the plastic?

 

[madman]

The 'binder' is also called the plasicizer, as it is the chemical agent that gives the plastic its plasticity. Once that's gone, it's no longer plastic.

I'm sure by now the engineers know about this problem. This isn't isolated to Dyson, it's literally any ABS plastic made back then. No doubt they've been making improvements since then.

 

[justjunque]

Unrelated, but related

I've had the same thing happen with plastic interior trim on 1980s cars.
Example; 1981 Buick Regal with dark blue interior.
The hard plastic trim pieces around the doors and windows first faded to a grey color, then got chalky, to where you could just scratch it away with your fingernail.

Barry

 

[texaskirbyguy]

Not surprised, unfortunately....

This is all the reason why I do not like any kind of plastic where longevity is desired or important, and to me that is most everything.

I had a pair of high-end bauer inline skates I bought in 1992. I used a couple of times,then stored in the box in the house closet. No UV rays or harsh temperatures.
I had them out 10 years back in a garage sale and I noticed the sun made them sticky. Once cooled off the stickiness disappeared. Last year I found a buyer for them and I tried them on to verify fit and the first one exploded as my foot when in. My GF was able to crush the other ones with her hands - they were that brittle. So that was a waste of $120 long ago!

Late 70s Fords had the chalky interior panel issue as well - UV related. I have an 80's Olds that does not have that issue but has been garaged most of its life and is low mileage. I heard that careful use of a heat gun can bring new like to them. At least they did not shatter. Now the old Ford polypropoline (sp?) plastic dash cluster backings fell apart on their own. Of course most products including cars are not designed to last decades...

Modern plastic items that have that rubber feel to them gets gooey in just a few years, and nothing can fix it. Even dell laptops and toyota dashboards had this issue, as well as pens, calculators, and other stuff.

Plastic chemistry is very complicated and messing with the recipe to cheapen it, make it 'better', reduce toxicitity, or make it more flame resistant can lead to early failure that is hard to detect in the lab.

All plastic plumbing in my next house? No way - I will pay the extra for copper. What is 'good quality' from one product batch can be crap in the next. There were mass recalls on certain plastic water piping and HVAC ducts in the 80's to 90's that just fell apart.

I can go on and on. Plastic is a bit of a crap-shoot. Lots of plastics from decades ago is still great, some not. Same from today, the same way, go figure...

 

[marks_here]

I had to look and

Yes in my Cadillac Eldorado Opera Coupe I notice yellowing of the plastic trim by the windshield.

 

[gregvacs28]

Why did I know you drove an older model Eldorado Mark? And it's not in bad shape either.

White leather with plum interior, very classy. That's what I love about the 80s.

The car phone still working?


My first car was a 4 year old 1983 Grand Marquis LS. White with blue leather. Very nice. It was a southern California car that was apparently parked outside and it also had the cushioned dash. As soon it was exposed to a Northern Minnesota winter it shrunk a bit and cracked right down the middle dividing the passenger side from the drivers side.
That's what the sun will do to plastic or vynil/spongy foam.

---

As for plastic plumbing which is typically PVC or CPVC or ABS I have not seen that disintegrate. Even stuff that's exposed directly to the sun. It might bleach it a little but I haven't seen it falling apart. That product is actually meant to be exposed to UV rays and has UV stabilizers in the mix. Those pipes also are not meant to be exposed to living areas where people would breath the gases the emit as they age. And they are more toxic.

 

[texaskirbyguy]

Beautiful Eldo, Mark! And yes, wondering minds want to know if the phone still works. I would like to know how it worked, too. The phone in my 97 STS went dead after its cell technology died, back in 2004 or so - very short lived.

Those Ford/merc 'panther' platforms were the cat's MEOW, no pun intended! I loved those cars - perfect for coast-coast cruising! Easy to service and reliable, too.

The plumbing pipe that was recalled was polybutylene I believe - it rotted from the inside out with chlorine exposure. I had to replace some at my mom's house a while back before it failed. Pex will deteriorate with UV exposure but as long as it is stored and installed correctly it should be okay. Unless some company messes with the recipe of course... Time will tell though, but I prefer not to take chances.
My PVC irrigation pipes underground have became brittle and will shatter when using a ratcheting tubing cutter. I blame the chlorine and age. I now use a hacksaw, hoping not to crack them.

 

[marks_here]

Ok for the phone

since everything is now digital and that was a UHF signal it doesn't work but the CB still does. It was expensive back then, you would turn the dial to zero click the receiver twice, the operator would come on ask you for the number you want dialled then ask you for the number for it to be charged to which was my house phone (aka landline) and that's how this one worked. The Seacode was different it had a rotary dial with its own number, until the Pulsar took that over, I think lol.

 

[justjunque]

Rob,
Same here. I also have a 1986 Pontiac that I left untouched in a garage for almost twenty years. I just hauled it out to get it back on the road last summer, and all the interior is still like new.
The Regal has been decaying out in the elements, and the interior is toast.

Mark,
That's an impressive Eldorado. I don't imagine there are too many of those around.
Beautiful interior too.
My Pontiac was a really limited edition. Around 1200 made.

Barry

 

[marks_here]

Not any more

I take it out every now and then for a drive, it doesn't do well going up steep roads and it definately stay inside when it rains which has been an every day occurance here.
Since this thread started I have been going through a bunch of things that are plastic, I've found that my Aerus Lux Guardian Ultra has now started to turn yellow but only on certain parts of it, the sides but not the front where the hose attaches and also the rear is still white. Also my Electrolux Ultralux Classic has yellowed, theback wheels, the top part where the off/on switch the entire thing, pistol grip hose and the sheath but the white trim around the blue front and also the bumper guards are still white.