Against the odds.

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Madabouthoovers, as much as I agree with you, one cannot judge the performance of a cleaner based on Argos reviews. My neighbour recently did this and leaned the hard way. She has a Vax single cyclone upright that got 5 star reviews on Argos and she absolutely hates it.

Argos shoppers also have the Argos value bagless upright good reviews, but we know better
 
Yes, the Argos Value upright made by Vax - its just a small version of the Power VX2 I think. The thing is that even though the Argos Value uprights may be naff by our standards, people overlook their flaws due to their cheap price, and tend to think - Ah well, its cheap, what do I expect?


The main problem with Argos reviews is that they email me within a few weeks of buying a vac (where I reserve it on my account that is, and then go in and buy one) asking me to do a review. Usually I have a good feeling for a vac in that time, but other people may not have had their vac ling enough to have to clean the pleated filters or had it clog up etc, so give a favourable review. That also goes for Dyson customers who think that their new Dyson is the mutt's nuts, but have yet to have a brushroll motor failure so common on the DC24, or plastics snap off, that Dysons also do well.


All I am saying is that people are hard up in this day and age, but Dyson just thinks we are still living in the mid noughties, when folks had loads of cash to spend on his expensive cleaners - that's not the case and more people are now very price-conscious, and Vax/Hoover are realising this by pricing their cleaners much more realistically - nearer the £100 mark for many of them now, and many new Hoovers and Vaxes are good vacs if you don't get a "Friday afternoon model" riddled with manufacturing defects. I've been impressed with my Vax Zoom model, despite it being only a "single cyclone", and it was a sixth of the price of a DC41.
 
You're right though madabouthoovers - my school bought a load of Dyson DC33's, they all broke withtin 1 month! Needless to say they tried to send them back but Dyson refused as they had been used in a Commercial Environment. They bought a loads of Henry's instead. Much cheaper & have lasted longer than 1 month!

Plus why buy a Dyson Ball when you can have a Hoover Globe...

Also, I have never seen a Dyson with 12.5m cord like on the Hoover Turbo Power!
 
Now Now!

Hang on one second.

Vax - they copy Dyson, they do not work the same AT ALL. Poorly built and designed and not ergonomic to use.

Where as with Dyson machines, they are easy to use and maintain. Powerful and always fun to use.

But, Dyson's do NOT lose suction when full. Just look at bagged cleaners like the Hoover Junior, James didn't like that because it wasn't efficient. It was also lacking in design features. I personally don't mind the Hoover Junior, just the paper bags that let it down. But as a vintage cleaner, is always good to have in a collection.

At the end of the day, it is the choice of the CONSUMER on what vacuum they want. Not the collector. For instance, my Mum, does not particular like vacuums. But her choice is Dyson because it is QUALITY. She doesn't want a Vax. A quote from the book i have: 'I invited someone to test out the DC01. Hit the Dyson i Said. She did. Then i said, no REALLY hit it! And the hammer kept bouncing off. Hit the Sebo, it smashed with one hit.' QUALITY PEOPLE, QUALITY!!! Hence why my mum has bought a Dyson ever since the first, the DC01.

And if your wondering why James moved production to the far east, it was because of the local council in Wiltshire. Dyson wanted a Bigger factory to employ more people and make new products. The stupid council turned down the planning application for a bigger factory, so he had no choice but to move! Bear that in mind, and research is VITAL to get a better understanding.
 
Sorry Root Cyclone - not quite. The only reason James went and invented the cyclone upright was because the Junior he had couldn't reuse the dust bag many times after using the same one well after the initial second time - and wanted to achieve a way where the dust wouldn't clog pores. I say he invent, because he DID INVENT the bagless cyclonic vacuum - he was inspired by a saw mill cyclone method, which is in no way a domestic application in a home for sucking up dirt!

I had a few DC01s - I loved the design and as you say it was fun to use - but they were never the best built vacuums and I know from experience of the problems I had with mine that seem to have similar highlights that Benny has pointed out. Leaking filters for one thing to the sole plate having to be replaced several times due to metal frames between rooms from hard floor to carpets. The DC04 was far better built but still had a few problems like plastic catches breaking early on the hose release. Oh yes, Dyson points out that a SEBO bag door will shatter when its hit by a hammer - but when the DC01 sole plate cracks over a metal threshold when in actual use, Dyson turns a blind eye!

BRAND NEW Dysons dont tend to loose suction - but they can loose suction when your general consumer ignores the filters on board. Is that the fault of the consumer, all the time? After all, if Dyson continually tells the public about air watts just to prove the suction principle but convieniently forgets to tell them to maintain filters in the same breath, it's hardly true!
 
Old Dysons are very brittle, as I found out when I dropped a DC07 bin assembly on the floor and the turquoise cyclone cones shattered rendering it useless. I also cracked one hitting it on the side of the dustbin. I used to buy old DC07's to do up and sell on, and so many of them had knackered soleplates or broken plastic parts - here is an example of a Dyson quality plastic soleplate - still think they are well built?

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As we can see there was a fair bit of claptrap in the book.

The sebo thing being on of them.

Quality is one thing Dyson hasnt ever been and wont ever be like most modern and future cleaners.

Just because someones mum has succumbed to the marketing hype dosnt mean its right.

Dysons fun to use? Not really. I dont see dust clouds in my face fun, I dont see having to undo the hose assembly fun everytime i see a bit of muck in a corner and want to swipe it out like i can with other tools onboard cleaners.

As for efficiency what James Dyson has failed to mention is that yes bagged cleaners do lose suction but they never lost it to the point they couldnt do their jobs.

Most bagged cleaners overcompensated with their designs to allow dirt pick up to be as successful with an empty bag than a full bag. Just beccause the power drops dont mean its missing anything.

Yes James Dyson is probably the vacuum cleaner industries biggest marketing gimmick god. It was never about his cleaners just creating fears and providing false hopes.
 
always fun to use

That is a matter of opinion. I cannot abide using bagless vacuums.

Sorry, RootCyclone, but you really need to deal with Dyson criticism - something that James Dyson never seemed remotely able to do.
 
Like I said, bagged cleaners I've used have only lost a bit of suction if any, if it's a Henry or Vax 3-in-1, then it will stay the same as the bag fills but say the Electrolux Boss Upright then yes, it will drop, but it won't stop picking up dirt.

A bagged vacuum with a full bag would still have more suction than an empty Dyson DC01 anyway, they had poor hose suction.
 
Well I found it fun to watch the dust go around and around, but eventually one tires of watching dirt spinning around. Better if you pick up some glitter and give your Dyson that personal touch.

However, I do agree - the Dyson book is very one sided and quite naturally given that Dyson was knocked back from several companies - however he didn't make it easy for himself and though the bagless cyclonic is a neat idea, it is far from perfect and end of the day, consumers shouldn't be taught about how dirt is sucked up and captured - I mean, honestly if Shanks and other companies went to pains to point out how your waste goes down a U bend in a toilet, would you really want to find out more?
 
deal with Dyson criticism - something that James Dyson never

So that's my belly laugh taken care of for the evening. Thank you Turbo500.

I am indifferent to Dyson - both the "brand" and the "Sir James". Like a lot of products, it is able to do what it says it says it will do. Whether or not what it does is needed is entirely subjective. Personally, I quite liked the idea of a bagless no-loss-of-suction cleaner, even if my shop did rely heavily on the sales of dustbags. What I did not like about the Dyson cleaners was the appalling build quality and the fact that many of the tried & tested 'good' parts of your Hoover and Electrolux and all the rest of them was tossed aside to make way for a completely new (and in my opinion lousy) way of doing things.

Take the tool kits, for example. Not withstanding the likes of Hoover and Philips, practically all other cleaners utilised a straight-forward push-fit tool kit, be it 32mm, 35mm, or whatever else it was. Dyson had a go at that on his uprights and DC02 cylinders. It was a success. So what do they do? They change it on the DC05 and parts start to break. In addition, "Dyson" branded accessories like the floor tool and telescopic tubes were to cost the consumer a small fortune when they broke, and quickly did they see that the savings made on bags was to be spent on replacement parts. I struggle with this, as Sir James has always stated the need to buy aftermarket parts for any product was bad form, which is why in this case he sites it as one reason why he built a bagless cleaner, yet he soon wanted a slice of aftermarket-sales sector, it would seem. He didn't sell bags of course; he sold expensive parts, and not just accessories, but essential parts critical to the continued use of his cleaners.

I remember one lady coming to my shop with a DC05 cleaner which had broken extension tubes (she'd taped them up) and also a broken floor tool (rendering the cleaner now useless). She asked for the price of the parts and almost fainted when I told her. I said there is a plan B, and told her the cost of buying a set of generic 32mm push-fit tubes, wand, and floor tool. As I said to her, the existing small tools will still fit, she gets a quality tool kit for a lot less, and as I didn't tell her, I actually made more money on the % mark-up of generic parts as I would have done Dyson genuine. Given the cost of the cleaner when new, and given the relatively short life the genuine parts had offered, the woman was somewhat keen to seek the generic tools option I presented her with.

There is one point which I would like to attempt to clarify, however, and that is the issue of the 100% suction. In defense of the Dyson cleaner, it simply has to be remembered that comparing the cyclones and filters of a Dyson with that of A.N.Other is to compare apples with eggs. The filter in a Dyson is nothing more than a pre-motor filter in a bagged cleaner and is there to prevent the fine dust escaping from the machine. As the cyclone tank represents the dustbag, in this instance the Dyson cleaner will never lose suction as a result of the cyclones doing the job of the bag, and this "open ended" system is what the claims refer to.

Other bagless cleaners do of course rely on a filter to "close" the end of the dust container, thus the filter is really what plays the part of the dustbag, not the cyclone tank itself. So you see, suction lost on a Dyson through eventual clogging of the pre-motor filter would not constitute a loss of suction as a result of using a bagless dust collection method.

Having said all of the above, I think Dyson are a little unaware of the concept of irony; having marketed their cleaner as being such that suction is never lost, when calling their helpline one of the first things the recorded message tells you is what to do if you cleaner is not sucking correctly. Blockages occur and filters clog; of course I know this, but their choice of words is, to my ears, something of a contradiction.
 
You have to read the book very carefully. While it was his Hoover Junior (a horrible vacuum in my opinion - we had them in the US too) that he made into the his first bagless upright, it was his Vax and it's terrible one-ply clogging vacuum bag that made him mad enough to do something about it. The airflow through a bagged vacuum decreases as the pores of the bag clog. We all know this. It's the velocity (the speed) of the air moving through the machine that needs to be maintained at a high level for good dirt pick up. Just because a vacuum has 'suction' doesn't mean it has sufficient airflow to clean well.

This is my autographed copy of James' autobiography. I have read it from cover to cover more than ten times. I can find only one sentence I take exception to. When he made the cardboard cyclone and put it on his poxy Hoover Junior, he wrote "I was the first man in the world with a bagless vacuum cleaner". Of course, the thirteen million people who had already bought Rainbows didn't count I guess.

dysonman1++8-21-2013-15-56-29.jpg
 
OK, Tom...

When any Dyson can beat a Hoover Juniors ass, then talk to me.


That silly test with the G-force and the Hoover Junior was unfair, the Junior was set too high for that, flat as a silk night gown, carpet so it couldn't make contact the floor correctly! I can guarentee that if they had tested it against a Turbopower 1 as they WERE out in 1983...It would of done WAY better as it is more powerfull and again, I have never found one of those to loose performance drastically when the bag fills, it just continues to pick up relentlessly!


I have no idea how James thought the "poxy Hoover Junior" looses suction as I have NEVER found a drop in it's performance!!


 


Do you want to see how bad DC01 really is? Here is a video I made several months ago with a MUCH more powerful vacuum which was on sale at the same time and was much cheaper to buy.


 
Yes!

Yes I have as I have a copy of 'doing a dyson' and x2 copies of 'Against the odds'! Only because at the time I brought a copy then on a day visit to Dyson HQ they gave everyone a copy! Doing a dyson is more a visual book of pictures and artwork but its interesting to look through showing the development of the DC01 and 02. I was a Dyson fanatic at the time!

Although I admire James Dyson and what he has achieved and look on to see what he and his Engineers will come out with next; I don't own a Dyson vacuum cleaner anymore and can not see I ever will in the future! I've gone back to bags and never looked back!
 
I've read it multiple times..

I think it's a terrific book! It drags a bit early on, but picks up, once he starts playing around with cyclones. There's definitely a lot of personal back-patting, but he struggled for a long time, before he had a product on the market.

One part of the Dyson story that bothers me a bit, has to do with his trips to vacuum cleaner companies with his original prototype. Still today, he mentions them scoffing at the notion of a bagless vacuum, and how bags make so much money, but I believe that if his vacuum at the time was more like the Cyclon, Amway, DC01, or Original Fantom (early dual-cyclonic uprights), vacuum companies would have been extremely interested. The prototype he took to Hoover, Electrolux, and various other companies was bizarre! It had two enormous upside-down cyclones (or one, and a bin), no clear bin, a tiny cleaner head, and was all-around much different than any of the finished products he got credit for. It still has a wand/hose, and switchover valve like today's Dysons, but I imagine vacuum company executives looking at it, scratching their heads, and struggling to understand the future of home cleaning.

More than the cyclone, the on-board hose intrigued companies, and the idea was promptly stolen.

henrydreyfuss++8-21-2013-19-01-39.jpg
 
Stolen hose idea.

That part I do recall reading. And yet, I am sure the Jeyes Ensign commercial upright cleaner has such a feature long before Electrolux allegedly stole Dyson's idea.

Furthermore, though not quite the full set up, the principles of an external hose must surely be accredited to Hoover for the Dial-a-Matic (UK convertible). I'm surprised the idea was developed from that sooner.
 

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