Against the odds.

[rootcyclone]

(If you don't like Dyson then leave now, you won't like this)

Hi all,

This popped through the door for me, a kinda late birthday present. I've always wanted this book, and now i have it! Against the Odds - James Dyson. An Autobiography. Gonna start reading it as soon as! There are some interesting 'rough' sketches inside of it including ones of 'Dual Cyclone' technology. Also explains about one of James' first inventions, the 'Ball Barrow.' Those of whom know Dyson pretty well will know what i'm on about.

Who else has this book anyways?

 

[singingrainbow]

I have one

My copy was given to be by a dyson rep at the 2002 VDTA show in San Antonio when I was six. It got lost and I only recently found and read it. It is a good read and I think you will like it.


 


Although there was admittedly a little misinformation, I still enjoyed it.


 


Scott

 

[vintagerepairer]

I once leafed through a copy of it at the library. I doubt anyone would say that the man (Dyson) had no guts, drive, and determination to do what he did and to get where his is. However, that does not mean I have to agree with his principles, nor do I think his success was due to a 'better' design of vacuum cleaner.

 

[sebo_fan]

I have an original copy of the book that I actually bought in a charity shop for less than 50p!

 

[turbomaster1984]

hmmmm

Leafed thru it and what I read he came across as a self important, pompous, and ignorant idiot.

Ditto what Vintagerepairer said.

 

[turbo500]

I second what Rob and Benny have said. I read bits of it, but generally found he came across as very arrogant and self-centred. He also rarely mentions any of the support he had along the way, or says "thank you" to anyone. As much as I accept that it is his autobiography, it's very ME ME ME and, in life, we are inevitably influenced by other people which he doesn't acknowledge.

I also think the success of Dyson is entirely based on clever marketing techniques and not actual product. Dyson fooled people into thinking they need a bagless machine, which wasn't the case. Especially when compared with the DC01, there were cheaper, better vacuums available, yet clever, almost brain washing, marketing strategies caught on.

 

[vintagerepairer]

lever, almost brain washing, marketing strategies

I can't argue with that per-se, but as I said a good deal of times before, human beings are generally rather disloyal creatures and are like sponges for a change. Dyson offered something which was appealing for a market of eager-to-try-something-else consumers simply soaked up. Let us review some facts:

Until 1992, few people in the UK had seen or heard of a DC01;

His cleaner was could be as much as 300% more expensive than a basic machine, and certainly 50-100% more than what most consumers would normally have paid;

His 'brand' had no known reliability;

The build quality was visibly poorer (and certainly physically so);

The whole thing looked cheap, although Dolly Parton was once heard to say [of her own appearance] "You have no idea just how much it costs to look THIS cheap" and in the case of a Dyson DC01 I think the figure was £199.99, if my failing memory is correct.

 

[man114]

I've never owned a DC01 livng here in the states but how was the build quality "visibly poorer"?

IONA licensed the technology and build what would become the Fantom Thunder and it was considerably sturdier (though not neccessarily more reliable) than most department store vacuums of the time. Its not like they were the largest of companies at the time. I mean there was as much weight to one of those early Fantoms as there was in like 3 of the readily available Dirt Devils of that timeframe.

If it was cheaply built what prevented Dyson from building it better?

 

[seamusuk]

Well in all honesty

I would have to agree with Rob's comments above- the man is an arrogant deluded self centered..... I do have a couple of Dyson's but they are both collectable, one being virtually unused and boxed. I would never buy a new one and well as for using any bagless as a daily driver.....It's not going to happen!!
Seamus

 

[vintagerepairer]

visibly poorer

Plastic was hard, shiny, and thin. There were no tailored recesses to store the tools, rather the 4-peiece tool kit was simply shoved onto two plastic lumps on each side of the cleaner for storage, with two of the tools having to be stuck onto two of the others (the back-to-back adapter sat on one side, with the crevice tool on the other; onto that the small tool and dusting brush were fitted) and this was not only considerably unsightly when compared to other cleaners on sale at that time, but also highly impractical as the tools were easily knocked off the sides when using the cleaner as an upright. The base plate was incredibly thin and soft, and the mains lead a good deal shorter than others available in the same price bracket.

On the cylinder model, suction power was low, and the cleaner was large and bulky to pull round, with no furniture guard on the cleaner. It also lacked electronic power control which, whilst I understand is not necessary for every consumer, was something which people who paid that sort of money would always have looked for. So without it, there was the potential to have alienated an section of the target market.

I cannot compare UK Dyson cleaners to that of the Fantom Thunder as I have never seen the latter(other than in a photograph, and they don't look the same) so it would be completely unfair for anyone in this position to do the same. I also know very little about the quality of vacuum cleaners sold in the USA. All I do know is what the USA cleaners sold in the UK were like, and to that end I can only compare the Dyson to that of the Dirt Devil and Electrolux Widetrack cleaners. In those examples, I would be happy to say that the quality of the Dyson was on a par; however, neither Dirt Devil, Electrolux Widetrack, and Dyson, were a match for the quailty of the Hoover, UK Electrolux, Hitachi, Vax, Panasonic, Morphy Richards, Meile, and many, many more cleaners on sale here at that time.

 

[vintagerepairer]

what prevented Dyson from building it better?

Presumably he thought it was good enough as it was. Clearly the cleaners were robust enough to make the initial sales, and from there the attraction grew, so sales boomed. And on it went. The original Dyson cleaners were subject to countless modifications as the years progressed, and as for the hose, it must have cost the company tens of thousands in replacements sent under warranty.

The thin, brittle plastic was used from 1993 until around 2005 if not later, when it was finally changed to something softer for the main parts of the cleaner. The effects of the sun on a Dyson cleaner can be catastrophic.

 

[dysondestijl]

I have this book. (Well the hardback version)
I have to disagree to what has been said!
James dyson was in so much debt at the time of wanting to develop his Vacuum Cleaner. Everyone says its about me-me-me, it's an autobiography! You wouldn't expect an autobiography where the person constantly taks about someone else!
His machines were visually poorer quality- what? Look at the hoover turbopower series!

 

[vintagerepairer]

Look at the hoover turbopower series

I was, the turbopower 2 & 3 was exactly what I had in mind when drawing my comparisons. Those cleaners were far superior in build quality to the Dyson. Even the original Turbopower had an edge over Dyson.

From comments on your profile, it is easy to see you were merely a babe in arms when the Dyson cleaners went on sale, if indeed you were born at all. On that basis I cannot blame you in anyway for not being able to see the comments in the same way as those who were around at the time and can recall first-hand exactly what the situation was at that time.

 

[beko1987]

I've got a copy and have read it, it's a good read. He does come across me me me as has been said, but it is an autobiography!
Probably wont read it again though, so it's in the car boot box now to be sold!

 

[hi-loswitch98]

I remember someone saying on here that Dyson didn't invent the Cyclone System - he saw giant ones at a sawmill & decided to put it in a Vacuum Cleaner.

But funnily enough - he brainwashed people into thinking that Bags Clog, but every Vacuum that's bagged I've had & used has never lost suction, it's always been as strong as when the bag was empty.

 

[turbo500]

You wouldn't expect an autobiography where the person co

As I've already said, we are constantly influenced in life by the decisions of others - our parents, friends, peers, other family members, colleagues. I read a lot of autobiographies and have to say that most, if not all, apart from Against All Odds, acknowledge the influence of other people and mention encounters with the, moments in life that they have been inspired or even demotivated by other people. James Dyson tends to waffle on about how brilliant HE is, without a thought for those around him.

I'm in agreement with Benny, there were far better built, higher performing vacuums on the market at the time. Infact, Which? slated the DC01 and rightly so. Hoover, Hitachi, Panasonic and Electrolux were all manufacturing better cleaners. Infact, really, the only cleaner on a par with the DC01 build quality wise was the Goblin Laser, retailing at less than 1/3 of the price.

Don't get me wrong, new Dysons have improved dramatically. Even the difference between the DC01 and 04 is astounding. But the DC01 was the leap of success for Dyson and, contrary to what James Dyson says, the success of the cleaner was entirely due to clever marketing NOT a high performing product. From 1993 - 2001, there were better, higher performing, better built and cheaper cleaners available.

 

[beko1987]

I agree, I;ve never really had a bagged machine clog on me to the point of uselessness. The bag indicator is broken on the Miele, and I don't really notice until the dirt coems out of the bag (have to take the hose off to put it under the bed where it lives).

I have had bagged machines loose suction, but mainly when vacuuming up lots of dust or using cheap sh*te bags.

I find Dysons clog up much more than bagged. The few I've had recently couldnt suck up shredded paper before a refurb and cyclone stripdown! Work great after, but I normally only give them a few years before they are back to their old selves

 

[hi-loswitch98]

Exactly Beko1987, unless you are using really cheap bags or clogged filters then bagged machines don't lose suction. Qualtex make great copy bags, as do Wilko.

 

[madabouthoovers]

The biggest lie Dyson make is that a Dyson doesn't loose suction - oh yes it does, and some more than others, as they are all dependent on clean filters, and no matter how efficient the cyclone is at separating the dirt from the airflow, the filters will eventually clog up - and the amount of Dysons I see on Ebay for spares or repairs saying that they work, but suction is poor, is quite staggering. People will learn one day that Dysons are not all they are cracked up to be, and that they certainly aint worth the hundreds of pounds that Dyson ask for them. Dysons have also become much smaller than they used to be, and the bin capacity of some of them now is laughable, with the full mark a couple of inches from the base of the bin, and the rest of the bin taken up by the cyclone assembly - this is more pronounced on the cylinder models.


Sooner or later, people will ditch Dyson and now that Vax and Hoover are making better multi-cyclonics for a fraction of the price, people are trying them out and realising they are just as good, if not better than Dysons and better value too. I only have to read the Argos vac reviews to find this out.


James Dyson maybe selfish and greedy for as much wealth as possible - but his bubble will burst eventually.


When he moved all production off to the far East, and laid off hundreds of British workers at Malmesbury, I lost most respect for him, and saw him for the greedy fatcat tycoon that he really is.


My newest Dyson is a Dc15, and I wont be buying anything newer as quite frankly I think they are overpriced and over-rated now. Having seen the build quality of the DC41 in Currys, and how bendy and weak the main spine of it is, I am unimpressed - especially as Dyson is wanting over £400 for it. "A fool and his money are easily parted" springs to mind when thinking of Dyson customers nowadays - especially those who think Dysons are bargains.


 


Here is an example of how people are now turning against Dysons - this is a review for the Vax Mach Air Pet from Argos


 


<div class="BVRRReviewTitleContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewTitlePrefix"> </span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRReviewTitle">Great value fantastic cleaner</span><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewTitleSuffix"> </span></div>
<div class="BVRRReviewDateContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewDatePrefix">Posted</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRReviewDate">04 June 2013</span><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewDateSuffix"> </span></div>
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<div class="BVRRUserNicknameContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRUserNicknamePrefix">By </span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRUserNickname"><span class="BVRRNickname">sbod </span></span><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRUserNicknameSuffix"> </span></div>
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<div class="BVRRUserLocationContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRUserLocationPrefix">From:</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRUserLocation">Hampshire</span></div>
<div class="BVRRContextDataValueContainer BVRRContextDataValueAgeContainer BVContextDataAge25to34"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRContextDataValuePrefix BVRRContextDataValueAgePrefix">Age:</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRContextDataValue BVRRContextDataValueAge">25 to 34</span></div>
<div class="BVRRContextDataValueContainer BVRRContextDataValueGenderContainer BVContextDataGenderFemale"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRContextDataValuePrefix BVRRContextDataValueGenderPrefix">Gender:</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRContextDataValue BVRRContextDataValueGender">Female</span></div>
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<div class="BVRRReviewTextParagraph BVRRReviewTextFirstParagraph BVRRReviewTextLastParagraph"><span class="BVRRReviewTextPrefix">"</span><span class="BVRRReviewText">Was considering investing in a Dyson but couldn't justify the cost as this was on special thought I would try it and it is worth every penny. I have a long haired cat and dog and both shed at the same time this has been a god send. Highly recommend this great vacuum.</span><span class="BVRRReviewTextSuffix">"</span></div>
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<div class="BVRRReviewDisplayStyle5Recommendations">
<div class="BVRRRecommendedContainer BVRRRecommendedContainerYes"><span class="BVRRValue BVRRRecommended">Yes, I recommend this product.</span></div>
<div class="BVRRRecommendedContainer BVRRRecommendedContainerYes"><span class="BVRRValue BVRRRecommended"> </span></div>
<div class="BVRRRecommendedContainer BVRRRecommendedContainerYes"><span class="BVRRValue BVRRRecommended"> </span></div>
<div class="BVRRRecommendedContainer BVRRRecommendedContainerYes"><span class="BVRRValue BVRRRecommended"> </span></div>
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<div class="BVRRRatingNormalOutOf"><span class="BVRRNumber BVRRRatingNumber">4</span> <span class="BVRRSeparatorText">/ </span><span class="BVRRNumber BVRRRatingRangeNumber">5</span></div>
<div class="BVRRReviewTitleContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewTitlePrefix"> </span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRReviewTitle">Dyson destroyer</span><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewTitleSuffix"> </span></div>
<div class="BVRRReviewDateContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewDatePrefix">Posted</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRReviewDate">09 August 2013</span><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRReviewDateSuffix"> </span></div>
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<div class="BVRRUserNicknameContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRUserNicknamePrefix">By </span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRUserNickname"><span class="BVRRNickname">Andy </span></span><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRUserNicknameSuffix"> </span></div>
<div class="BVRRContextDataContainer">
<div class="BVRRUserLocationContainer"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRUserLocationPrefix">From:</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRUserLocation">Bedford</span></div>
<div class="BVRRContextDataValueContainer BVRRContextDataValueAgeContainer BVContextDataAge35to44"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRContextDataValuePrefix BVRRContextDataValueAgePrefix">Age:</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRContextDataValue BVRRContextDataValueAge">35 to 44</span></div>
<div class="BVRRContextDataValueContainer BVRRContextDataValueGenderContainer BVContextDataGenderMale"><span class="BVRRLabel BVRRContextDataValuePrefix BVRRContextDataValueGenderPrefix">Gender:</span><span class="BVRRValue BVRRContextDataValue BVRRContextDataValueGender">Male</span></div>
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<div class="BVRRReviewTextParagraph BVRRReviewTextFirstParagraph BVRRReviewTextLastParagraph"><span class="BVRRReviewTextPrefix">"</span><span class="BVRRReviewText">Needed to replace my trusty dyson after 10 years of service.finally decided on this vax model and i am not disappointed.this thing could eat my old dyson for breakfast and still carry on to clean the rest of the house.it has a relatively small collection chamber compared to the dyson so you need to empty frequently,but thats a small price to pay for such a powerful vacuum cleaner.6 year warranty,half price in the sale,im very happy..</span><span class="BVRRReviewTextSuffix">"</span></div>
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<div class="BVRRRecommendedContainer BVRRRecommendedContainerYes"><span class="BVRRValue BVRRRecommended">Yes, I recommend this product.</span></div>
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</div>[this post was last edited: 8/21/2013-07:02]

 

[turbo500]

Madabouthoovers, as much as I agree with you, one cannot judge the performance of a cleaner based on Argos reviews. My neighbour recently did this and leaned the hard way. She has a Vax single cyclone upright that got 5 star reviews on Argos and she absolutely hates it.

Argos shoppers also have the Argos value bagless upright good reviews, but we know better

 

[madabouthoovers]

Yes, the Argos Value upright made by Vax - its just a small version of the Power VX2 I think. The thing is that even though the Argos Value uprights may be naff by our standards, people overlook their flaws due to their cheap price, and tend to think - Ah well, its cheap, what do I expect?


The main problem with Argos reviews is that they email me within a few weeks of buying a vac (where I reserve it on my account that is, and then go in and buy one) asking me to do a review. Usually I have a good feeling for a vac in that time, but other people may not have had their vac ling enough to have to clean the pleated filters or had it clog up etc, so give a favourable review. That also goes for Dyson customers who think that their new Dyson is the mutt's nuts, but have yet to have a brushroll motor failure so common on the DC24, or plastics snap off, that Dysons also do well.


All I am saying is that people are hard up in this day and age, but Dyson just thinks we are still living in the mid noughties, when folks had loads of cash to spend on his expensive cleaners - that's not the case and more people are now very price-conscious, and Vax/Hoover are realising this by pricing their cleaners much more realistically - nearer the £100 mark for many of them now, and many new Hoovers and Vaxes are good vacs if you don't get a "Friday afternoon model" riddled with manufacturing defects. I've been impressed with my Vax Zoom model, despite it being only a "single cyclone", and it was a sixth of the price of a DC41.

 

[hi-loswitch98]

You're right though madabouthoovers - my school bought a load of Dyson DC33's, they all broke withtin 1 month! Needless to say they tried to send them back but Dyson refused as they had been used in a Commercial Environment. They bought a loads of Henry's instead. Much cheaper & have lasted longer than 1 month!

Plus why buy a Dyson Ball when you can have a Hoover Globe...

Also, I have never seen a Dyson with 12.5m cord like on the Hoover Turbo Power!

 

[rootcyclone]

Now Now!

Hang on one second.

Vax - they copy Dyson, they do not work the same AT ALL. Poorly built and designed and not ergonomic to use.

Where as with Dyson machines, they are easy to use and maintain. Powerful and always fun to use.

But, Dyson's do NOT lose suction when full. Just look at bagged cleaners like the Hoover Junior, James didn't like that because it wasn't efficient. It was also lacking in design features. I personally don't mind the Hoover Junior, just the paper bags that let it down. But as a vintage cleaner, is always good to have in a collection.

At the end of the day, it is the choice of the CONSUMER on what vacuum they want. Not the collector. For instance, my Mum, does not particular like vacuums. But her choice is Dyson because it is QUALITY. She doesn't want a Vax. A quote from the book i have: 'I invited someone to test out the DC01. Hit the Dyson i Said. She did. Then i said, no REALLY hit it! And the hammer kept bouncing off. Hit the Sebo, it smashed with one hit.' QUALITY PEOPLE, QUALITY!!! Hence why my mum has bought a Dyson ever since the first, the DC01.

And if your wondering why James moved production to the far east, it was because of the local council in Wiltshire. Dyson wanted a Bigger factory to employ more people and make new products. The stupid council turned down the planning application for a bigger factory, so he had no choice but to move! Bear that in mind, and research is VITAL to get a better understanding.

 

[sebo_fan]

Sorry Root Cyclone - not quite. The only reason James went and invented the cyclone upright was because the Junior he had couldn't reuse the dust bag many times after using the same one well after the initial second time - and wanted to achieve a way where the dust wouldn't clog pores. I say he invent, because he DID INVENT the bagless cyclonic vacuum - he was inspired by a saw mill cyclone method, which is in no way a domestic application in a home for sucking up dirt!

I had a few DC01s - I loved the design and as you say it was fun to use - but they were never the best built vacuums and I know from experience of the problems I had with mine that seem to have similar highlights that Benny has pointed out. Leaking filters for one thing to the sole plate having to be replaced several times due to metal frames between rooms from hard floor to carpets. The DC04 was far better built but still had a few problems like plastic catches breaking early on the hose release. Oh yes, Dyson points out that a SEBO bag door will shatter when its hit by a hammer - but when the DC01 sole plate cracks over a metal threshold when in actual use, Dyson turns a blind eye!

BRAND NEW Dysons dont tend to loose suction - but they can loose suction when your general consumer ignores the filters on board. Is that the fault of the consumer, all the time? After all, if Dyson continually tells the public about air watts just to prove the suction principle but convieniently forgets to tell them to maintain filters in the same breath, it's hardly true!

 

[madabouthoovers]

Old Dysons are very brittle, as I found out when I dropped a DC07 bin assembly on the floor and the turquoise cyclone cones shattered rendering it useless. I also cracked one hitting it on the side of the dustbin. I used to buy old DC07's to do up and sell on, and so many of them had knackered soleplates or broken plastic parts - here is an example of a Dyson quality plastic soleplate - still think they are well built?

 

[turbomaster1984]

As we can see there was a fair bit of claptrap in the book.

The sebo thing being on of them.

Quality is one thing Dyson hasnt ever been and wont ever be like most modern and future cleaners.

Just because someones mum has succumbed to the marketing hype dosnt mean its right.

Dysons fun to use? Not really. I dont see dust clouds in my face fun, I dont see having to undo the hose assembly fun everytime i see a bit of muck in a corner and want to swipe it out like i can with other tools onboard cleaners.

As for efficiency what James Dyson has failed to mention is that yes bagged cleaners do lose suction but they never lost it to the point they couldnt do their jobs.

Most bagged cleaners overcompensated with their designs to allow dirt pick up to be as successful with an empty bag than a full bag. Just beccause the power drops dont mean its missing anything.

Yes James Dyson is probably the vacuum cleaner industries biggest marketing gimmick god. It was never about his cleaners just creating fears and providing false hopes.

 

[turbo500]

always fun to use

That is a matter of opinion. I cannot abide using bagless vacuums.

Sorry, RootCyclone, but you really need to deal with Dyson criticism - something that James Dyson never seemed remotely able to do.

 

[hi-loswitch98]

Like I said, bagged cleaners I've used have only lost a bit of suction if any, if it's a Henry or Vax 3-in-1, then it will stay the same as the bag fills but say the Electrolux Boss Upright then yes, it will drop, but it won't stop picking up dirt.

A bagged vacuum with a full bag would still have more suction than an empty Dyson DC01 anyway, they had poor hose suction.

 

[sebo_fan]

Well I found it fun to watch the dust go around and around, but eventually one tires of watching dirt spinning around. Better if you pick up some glitter and give your Dyson that personal touch.

However, I do agree - the Dyson book is very one sided and quite naturally given that Dyson was knocked back from several companies - however he didn't make it easy for himself and though the bagless cyclonic is a neat idea, it is far from perfect and end of the day, consumers shouldn't be taught about how dirt is sucked up and captured - I mean, honestly if Shanks and other companies went to pains to point out how your waste goes down a U bend in a toilet, would you really want to find out more?