1205 Popping Open

[danemodsandy]

I thought I'd start a new thread on this, if it's okay...

I've removed the cover from my 1205's bag door, and looked very carefully at everything. There are no tubes loose, crimped, or blocked. After only a few minutes of vacuuming with the dusting brush, the bag door pops open and the "Bag Check" light comes on (nice to know it works).

The little black rubber horn is pliable and uncracked, as well. With the cover off the bag door, I can see that the diaphragm and plunger that activate the door's latch are working too, like maybe too well.

This machine was in a thrift with a clogged hose, being played with for about two weeks before I bought it. Is it possible that the clog put too much strain on the diaphragm or something, somehow rupturing it or something?

I knew I wasn't meant to have a 1205!

 

[lux1521]

I don't think it is the diaphram because that is what allows it to open. If the the diaphram was ruptured it would never open on its own. You can rule that part out.

Have you adjusted the dial yet? Make sure you have it set to 6, then see how things work.

 

[danemodsandy]

Erick:

Dial adjustment makes no difference- I left that out of my previous post, sorry.

'Tis a puzzlement!

 

[cleaningbuff]

1205

Ssndy
Take out the bag and look in the bottom of the bag chamber at the screen that covers the motor, see if it has accumulated lint dirt and other debris.
Robert

 

[danemodsandy]

Robert:

There was some, but I cleaned it out earlier tonight, and no change.

 

[crevicetool]

Sandy,

There is a small orifice in the hose connection. One of the tubes from the valve/diaphragm connects to it. See if it clogged. Seeing how your hose was stuck for so long-it might have gotten crusted over. It is a very small hole, so be careful cleaning it.
Rick

 

[collector2]

I concur with Rick. Usually that problem was caused by the diaphram connetion in the throat being plugged. We used to take the plastic hose off it then use a pin to clean it out. (Yes - I was an Electrolux service tec for 10 years). The release is actuated by a difference in pressure between the sides of the diaphram - one side is connected behind the bag the other infront of it to the throat. If the front one gets clogged it actuates it.

 

[danemodsandy]

Oh, Brothah!

Wouldn't you know that what I found would generate another question?

I'm including another of my infamous MS Paint sketches to illustrate. What I found was that the vac hose tube has a little metal tube (looks like brass) coming out its side, as you guys described. But looking at the end of the little metal tube, there is a greyish substance filling the end of it- there is the tee-ninsiest hole in the centre of that greyish substance. The finest sewing needle I have in the house will not pass through the hole. Now here's the question:

Is that grey substance impacted dirt, or is it some kind of plastic plug in the brass tube that is supposed to have the tiny hole in its centre? If I look into the vac hose tube and look at the other end of the brass tube, that end of the brass tube is free and clear, with nothing inserted into it.

If this is a clue, the plastic vacuum tube I removed from the brass tube was filthy dirty inside, requiring soaking and pipe cleaners to clear.

Thanks for bearing with me- I feel like we're in the home stretch.

 

[aeoliandave]

Mmm, good sketch and a great question. I'm looking forward to the definitve answer.

I have only hands-on experience with LXs and the next generation of metal body Electrolux auto door system. All of these have a one piece brass tube with a closed end that has a teensy bleed hole, smaller than the average dressmakers pin, drilled through the closed end.1 Meaning smaller than 1/64". No inserted plug.
I have worked on LX, E, AE, G etc bleed nipples that were dust impacted reducing the size of the bleed to a hair's width, or completely plugged.

My AP100, which works and pops open as designed, has an all plastic bag door with the powerhose socket and bleed tube nipple an integral part of the casting. It has a just under 1/32" bleed hole drilled through the plastic nipple.

It's my suspicion that the bleed hole can't be any larger than this and allow the system to function reliably.

The pinhole sized bleed lets the latch diaphram collapse slowly as suction is reduced - a bleed as large as 1/8" would cause the diaphram to collapse imediately, defeating the purpose.

So, maybe that is a gray plastic plug. Pokeing it with a needle will soon cause it to disintegrate if it is impacted dust. If not, it's a plug.

As I say, I have no direct knowledge of the later American versions of the Canadian AP100, which was introduced here in 1973.

Dave, always interested in engineering analysis.

 

[aeoliandave]

AP100 bleed hole just inside intake

Mmm, good sketch and a great question. I'm looking forward to the definitve answer.

I have only hands-on experience with LXs and the next generation of metal body Electrolux auto door system. All of these have a one piece brass tube with a closed end that has a teensy bleed hole, smaller than the average dressmakers pin, drilled through the closed end.1 Meaning smaller than 1/64". No inserted plug.
I have worked on LX, E, AE, G etc bleed nipples that were dust impacted reducing the size of the bleed to a hair's width, or completely plugged.

My AP100, which works and pops open as designed, has an all plastic bag door with the powerhose socket and bleed tube nipple an integral part of the casting. It has a just under 1/32" bleed hole drilled through the plastic nipple.

It's my suspicion that the bleed hole can't be any larger than this and allow the system to function reliably.

The pinhole sized bleed lets the latch diaphram collapse slowly as suction is reduced - a bleed as large as 1/8" would cause the diaphram to collapse imediately, defeating the purpose.

So, maybe that is a gray plastic plug. Pokeing it with a needle will soon cause it to disintegrate if it is impacted dust. If not, it's a plug.

As I say, I have no direct knowledge of the later American versions of the Canadian AP100, which was introduced here in 1973.

Dave, always interested in engineering analysis.

 

[aeoliandave]

Hose from nipple to rubber 'trumpet'.

btw, I like that term, trumpet.

 

[aeoliandave]

Integral drilled out bleed nipple.

 

[crevicetool]

Nice drawings

I would like to know how you did that and the wording!!!
Anyway, I think if you wipe off the grayish material you'll see that it doesn't fill the brass nipple like you think it does. That stuff should just be on the surface. However, your brass nipple should look like your drawing with tiny hole. I tried it on mine just now, and I could not get a straight pin through the hole either. It is much smaller than that. Since you have cleared your tube from the valve to the nipple, I would stick it back on and try blowing out the nipple. Now the hose connector side is larger, so you could "dig" around in there a little, without hurting anything. When you blow on the tube you should be able to feel very little coming out the other end. I know, Imagine that brass nipple to resemble a cup with a hole in the bottom, in the center.
Rick

 

[danemodsandy]

Rick and Dave:

The drawing was done in MS Paint, which is kinda kludgy, but it works okay for rough sketches. I have other programmes that do better work, but they're more trouble to use.

I will poke away at the bleed hole with a tiny needle, and see what happens. It seems like a weird arrangement, though. If the actual bleed hole needs to be so small, putting it within a plug that is force-fitted into the brass tube would seem to be a failure-prone design. The suction forces in that area are surely high enough to force a plug out of a tube every once in a while.

Just for grits and giggles, can anyone tell me why there should be a suction tube running to the cordwinder on these things? I replaced the cordwinder last night, and had to switch the tube over to the new unit.

 

[danemodsandy]

DAMN!

The bag door is still popping open. I managed to clean the little orifice, using the finest sewing needle I had on hand, a pair of needle-nosed pliers, and of course, safety goggles. After several attempts, and some language I will not repeat here, the needle cleared through the plug and passed through into the vac hose tube.

BUT- the pop-open problem continues. Here are exact symptoms:

1- Suction on this thing is excellent.
2- I'm using the Medium Dirt setting on the Automatic Control, which is the setting I've always used on every Automatic Electrolux I've ever owned.
3- When vacuuming, everything goes fine for about one minute.
4- When anything increases the motor strain (say, vacuuming a table top with the dusting brush), you can see the bag door move. If you put your hand over the hose end and then take it away, you'll see the bag door move in and out with the increase and decrease in motor strain.
5- Each time the bag door moves in response to the increase in motor strain, it opens a little more, maybe 1/16 inch.
6- After a minute or so of bag door movement, the bag door falls open and the Bag Check light comes on.
7- The problem seems to be slightly better than it was last night, when the orifice was completely clogged, but only VERY slightly, and it could be wishful thinking on my part.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

[danemodsandy]

More Info:

Dunno if this will help our differential diagnosis, but...

...The problem does not occur when using the PN-2, nor the floor/rug tool. The floor/rug tool was tested on both its sides, vacuuming both hard flooring and carpet. Only when I use the dusting brush does this happen, or when I test the problem out by putting my hand over the hose end.

 

[crevicetool]

OK, Let me ponder the new details....

of what could be wrong with your 1205.In the meantime, let me 'splain the hose from the bag chamber to the cordwinder. That is a Minimum cooling air passage for the motor in case of a completely blocked intake or clogged hose. Very minimal, as much air movement is required to keep that motor cool, that little 1/4 inch hole and it's hose ain't gonna cool that motor for long.

 

[crevicetool]

While I think about the

possible problems, I need you to do a test. You say the bag door moves when the motor strains. Run the machine and try to get it to do what it did before with the dusting brush/hand, etc., While holding the door tightly closed against the machine. If this solves the problem, and you don't see the latch opening, then, well just try that. Let us know what the results were..
Rick

 

[danemodsandy]

Rick:

Test performed- door was held closed, then machine was switched on and vacuuming done with the dusting brush. Door held closed the entire time.

Result- When the machine was switched on, the bag door release button could be seen to move outward and downward. So long as the bag door was held closed, everything was fine. As soon as the bag door was not held closed any more, it released and fell open.