Miele Guard L1 vs old C3 - airflow through the hose?

[eurekaprince]

Does anyone know if the airflow through the hose is worse or better on the Miele Guard L1 vs the old C3? What about the old C1 vs the new compact Guard S1? Curious as to whether the airflow is better on the old models. You really can’t beat the airflow on the old C3/S8 canisters.

 

[cheesewonton]

Does anyone know if the airflow through the hose is worse or better on the Miele Guard L1 vs the old C3? What about the old C1 vs the new compact Guard S1? Curious as to whether the airflow is better on the old models. You really can’t beat the airflow on the old C3/S8 canister

A modern Kenmore 600 puts anything Miele makes to shame for airflow. 72 cfm at the hose end. No other vacuum from any manufacturer that I have measured can match that. The best Miele is around 60 cfm. The 600s attachments, hose and power nozzle are vastly better than anything Miele ever sold. I have some Mieles but basically hate using them, so I don't any more and my wife in particular loathes them. The hose is simultaneously too stiff and it has this built in curve that fights you and either kinks or it flips the canister over. I can't tell you how many times I watched my poor wife wrestle with that hose and end up with the canister on its side. Part of that is because the hose is too short ( Sebo, Kenmore, Patriot, Aerus, all have longer hoses ) and part of it is the material they use. A Sebo hose looks the same as Miele but is much nicer to use. Kenmore and Aerus hoses are entirely different, heavier but supple and they never fight you. Miele attachments are cruel joke, especially their pinche useless little dusting brush. Then you consider their treacherous bag dock and grossly overpriced bags and filters and this whole infatuation with Miele escapes me. Nein, danke.

 

[centralsweeper63]

I like to use my s6, however I don't like worrying about the darn bag not being in the right place.

 

[z67danco]

Does anyone know if the airflow through the hose is worse or better on the Miele Guard L1 vs the old C3? What about the old C1 vs the new compact Guard S1? Curious as to whether the airflow is better on the old models. You really can’t beat the airflow on the old C3/S8 canisters.

I almost bought one, but I saw somewhere online that the Guard L1 is slightly less powerful, but I can't remember or find where I saw that. Maybe it is what psychology calls a 'false memory.' But, I do remember thinking, "man, why would Miele make it less powerful than the C3?"

The [US] Complete C3 is rated @ 158 CFM, 111" water-lift.

Sebo K3, E3, and D3 models are rated @ 120 cfm, 95" waterlift.

Kenmore 600 Series is rated @ [greater than or equal to] 67 cfm; and 83-inches sealed waterlift.*

*NOTE: Kenmore's power figures are unconventional. Typically, manufacturers list the maximum figures, not the minimum figures.

Truthfully, all of these machines felt like they had a good amount of power, but still lacked in other areas. Less-efficient filtration, flimsy fittings, awkward usability, required more effort, stopping/bending over, and/or lost carpet performance after just a few uses (Sebo E3, D4).

If you know of any other canister with manufacturer-listed airflow and suction figures that are on-par or surpassing the Complete C3, let me know in a reply. I like to compare figures, but I only use them when they're manufacturer-listed. Ristenbatt and Sylvane are two sites I use to find CFM and waterlift ratings. If it's an amateur score, they're interesting but not credible without being able to compare to OEM-listed ratings.

 

[z67danco]

I like to use my s6, however I don't like worrying about the darn bag not being in the right place.

This problem is allegedly resolved in the Guard models, and I wonder if the Guard's ComfortFit bag dock is backward's compatible with the older Miele models. It looks like the Gaurd M1 bag dock would fit the C3, when comparing photos of C3 and M1 bag compartment, bag dock, alignment tabs, etc. I might just try it out, one day.

 

[eurekaprince]

I had a feeling that the convoluted path the air now takes in the Guard L1 might result in less air flow through the hose. From what I can figure out, the dirty air gets first sucked into the bag as before, but then it goes into a channel on the bottom of the canister and then makes its way upward into the fan chamber then is expelled forward through a Hepa filter facing forward into the new exhaust air gap in the middle of the canister. From this new air gap, the exhaust air is diffused out each side of the body.

 

[centralsweeper63]

The guard L1 has the same motor as the previous model, the complete c3. Some machines with the same motor will have different performance from different air paths. Think of a kirby. Kenmore is probably measuring at the hose end while miele and sebo probably measure at the machine.

 

[cheesewonton]

The [US] Complete C3 is rated @ 158 CFM, 111" water-lift.
Fiction. The Domel motor in the C3 can't begin to produce 158 cfm. I don't have the data sheet for the specific motor that Domel sells Miele but I can bracket it with two other Domel motors, one of which draws too many amps for use in a household vacuum but is a good upper limit for comparison.

Domel model 463-3-404-13 is a 1300 watt motor. It is rated at a maximum of 101 cfm through a 50 mm ( just under 2 inch ) orifice. Maximum sealed suction is 99.9 inches of H2O. The peak air watt rating is 490. This is the motor sold in the Aerus Guardian Platinum.

Domel model 463-3-201-3 is a 1500 watt motor, which is beyond the 1440 watt ceiling for North American household appliances, even before you add the current draw of a power nozzle but it represents a useful maximum possible for this kind of motor. It is rated at a maximum airflow through a 50 mm orifice of 96 cfm but its maximum sealed suction is 136 inches of H2O. It's peak air watts are 553.

I will add one more Domel motor. This is one sold for use in old Electrolux D790 and D795s when the original Swedish motor quits. It's maximum current draw is 1296 watts. This is a motor rated at 522.87 air watts. It is rated at a maximum airflow at a 40 mm orifice of 107 cfm and a maximum sealed suction of 108.66 inches of H2O. At the end of the vacuum hose in my D795 generates more suction and airflow than any Miele I have. So when I see numbers like the ones you quote I know they are exaggerations. Gross exaggerations, literally more than the motor can produce. Not saying you are exaggerating but manufacturers sure do.

 

[centralsweeper63]

I always looked at that and thought if a central vacuum with a big 8.4 inch motor can't even produce that much power a miele canister with a little tiny single stage motor has no chance whatsoever.

 

[cheesewonton]

I always looked at that and thought if a central vacuum with a big 8.4 inch motor can't even produce that much power a miele canister with a little tiny single stage motor has no chance whatsoever.

If you look at the Canadian Miracle Mate website they claim their vacuum has an airflow of 6 cubic feet per second. Hmmm. 6 cubic feet per second is 360 cubic feet per minute. But when you crack one open you find an Ametek suction motor model 115923. The Product Bulletin for that motor claims a maximum airflow at a 2 inch orifice ( wide open, no restriction ) of 122 cfm. That is 1/3 the airflow Miracle Mate claims for their vacuum with that motor. Meanwhile I measure 32-33 cfm at the hose end, a much more realistic number ( 6200 ft per min airpseed through a 28 mm/ 1.1 inch inside diameter hose opening, a 1.1 inch diameter circle has an area of .0066 square feet, so 6200 ft per min X .0066 square feet = 40.92 cubic feet per minute. Multiple that by 0.8 to compensate for the difference in airpseed between the center of the hose opening and the walls where air is barely moving due to the boundary layer and you get 32.76 cfm, call it 33 cfm ).