vintagerepairer
Well-known member
I always thought Argos to be one of the more efficient stores around. Considering the amount of stock they sell, I am surprised there aren't more mistakes.
Vacuum watts in new Argos
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sebo_fan
Well-known member
Um.. well it isn't Argos fault - its the manufacturer who supplies the stats and the prices at the time of the purchasing. I only know this because I moaned to Argos a few years ago about the pricing of one of their dishwashers I was going to buy. Argos purchase models and appliances from the brands and use the prices as they see fit. Argos also take into consideration what other companies are doing, such as Comet, John Lewis et al - therefore they either offer a competitive pricing structure or a "lead in, brand new" pricing.
The best thing about Argos is that sometimes you don't get what you actually purchased - mate of mine bought a JVC budget micro hifi a couple of years ago that cost £99-99 and got a premium JVC unit that Argos was also selling at £399! Sometimes the companies misplace the products under the wrong product code and it also happens with a lot of other appliances, including vacuums.
Also the "cheap tat" that someone else referred to here at Argos isn't Argos own - some of the bagged cylidner vacuums are a mix of Eureka cylinder vacs from the U.S under the Proaction & Russell Hobbs tag, to Argos Value who rebadge Vax appliances that aren't always available in the UK. Case in point - Argos Value bagless upright is based on the Vax Essentials upright, sat underneath it in the website - you can clearly tell, despite the colour changes - model numbers are pretty similar too.
The best thing about Argos is that sometimes you don't get what you actually purchased - mate of mine bought a JVC budget micro hifi a couple of years ago that cost £99-99 and got a premium JVC unit that Argos was also selling at £399! Sometimes the companies misplace the products under the wrong product code and it also happens with a lot of other appliances, including vacuums.
Also the "cheap tat" that someone else referred to here at Argos isn't Argos own - some of the bagged cylidner vacuums are a mix of Eureka cylinder vacs from the U.S under the Proaction & Russell Hobbs tag, to Argos Value who rebadge Vax appliances that aren't always available in the UK. Case in point - Argos Value bagless upright is based on the Vax Essentials upright, sat underneath it in the website - you can clearly tell, despite the colour changes - model numbers are pretty similar too.
turbo500
Well-known member
AirWatts do matter, but so does Wattage.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. For me, it's all about air-watts generated. Look out how well the Hoover Junior and Turbopower perform and they only use 300w and 410w respectively. My Panasonic 47 has incredible suction power and that only use 700w max. Infact, it has stronger suction than my mother's 1800w Electrolux.
Just look at old Numatic cylinders as a prime example. 800w and you know how much suction they have.
On another note, I also have to disagree with you about the Argos Value range. I'd sooner pay £35 for a cheapie, Argos Value bagless vac than pay £100 for pretty much the same machine but branded "Vax" or "Hoover" (the Vax Power and Hoover Whirlwind range are virtually identical in design). The bagged cleaners are actually not half bad, especially for the price.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. For me, it's all about air-watts generated. Look out how well the Hoover Junior and Turbopower perform and they only use 300w and 410w respectively. My Panasonic 47 has incredible suction power and that only use 700w max. Infact, it has stronger suction than my mother's 1800w Electrolux.
Just look at old Numatic cylinders as a prime example. 800w and you know how much suction they have.
On another note, I also have to disagree with you about the Argos Value range. I'd sooner pay £35 for a cheapie, Argos Value bagless vac than pay £100 for pretty much the same machine but branded "Vax" or "Hoover" (the Vax Power and Hoover Whirlwind range are virtually identical in design). The bagged cleaners are actually not half bad, especially for the price.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Ah but Chris, you're falling into that trap already that "air watts" is the same as motor watts - if you refer to the old Hoover uprights that use the actual wattage power of 300w and 410w, there are not air watts and if there was a way to find out what the air watts were these days with these old vacuums, they wouldn't be very much from the hose. Also don't forget that of the Hoover models you do mention, those are upright by design only. I can recall from my own Hoover Junior U1104 that the suction through the hose wasn't that good, and a bit better with the convertor on my older Junior U1012 upright.
As Benny pointed out, air watts only goes so far -it is pointless taking into account air watts where bagged vacuums are concerned anyway as the dust eventually clogs the bag and the suction is reduced. This also occurs as well with the Vax/cheap branded bagless vacs with the "regularly clean" filters for extra maintenance of power - air watts can't be trusted unless they have been put into a vacuum that offers constant suction all the time, and we all know what brand uses that as a heavy advertiser.
As you know not all vacuums are made the same - the Numatic has an excellent sealed suction system and likewise with Sebo, it depends on the actual way air flow is maintained as well as minimising air leakage through performance that produces the power, not just the motor alone.
Lastly, as the previous owner of an Argos Value bagged upright, they're good at what they are designed to do - but getting the bags and belts for it can be a complete nightmare! Getting drive belts off the high street was impossible. I don't like to shop for everything online but that's an issue you have to do because Argos eventually get rid of stock like consumables as well as running out on a daily or weekly basis. The bagged upright is fantastic value, but you do have to do a lot more assembly than the cheapest mass-brand bagged vacuum that Argos sell and because of its exclusivity, I often had to buy two packs of dust bags to keep me going. It was cheap to buy, but to maintain for a medium sized home with 3 people sharing, not really that cost effective. If the bags had been larger on capacity, then yes I could well have seen it as an economical purchase; thus the Panasonic upright that Argos sell is far more reliable, not just in terms of performance but for the fact that nationally and locally, there are far more widespread parts, bags and filters - as well as having a larger dust bag capacity.
As Benny pointed out, air watts only goes so far -it is pointless taking into account air watts where bagged vacuums are concerned anyway as the dust eventually clogs the bag and the suction is reduced. This also occurs as well with the Vax/cheap branded bagless vacs with the "regularly clean" filters for extra maintenance of power - air watts can't be trusted unless they have been put into a vacuum that offers constant suction all the time, and we all know what brand uses that as a heavy advertiser.
As you know not all vacuums are made the same - the Numatic has an excellent sealed suction system and likewise with Sebo, it depends on the actual way air flow is maintained as well as minimising air leakage through performance that produces the power, not just the motor alone.
Lastly, as the previous owner of an Argos Value bagged upright, they're good at what they are designed to do - but getting the bags and belts for it can be a complete nightmare! Getting drive belts off the high street was impossible. I don't like to shop for everything online but that's an issue you have to do because Argos eventually get rid of stock like consumables as well as running out on a daily or weekly basis. The bagged upright is fantastic value, but you do have to do a lot more assembly than the cheapest mass-brand bagged vacuum that Argos sell and because of its exclusivity, I often had to buy two packs of dust bags to keep me going. It was cheap to buy, but to maintain for a medium sized home with 3 people sharing, not really that cost effective. If the bags had been larger on capacity, then yes I could well have seen it as an economical purchase; thus the Panasonic upright that Argos sell is far more reliable, not just in terms of performance but for the fact that nationally and locally, there are far more widespread parts, bags and filters - as well as having a larger dust bag capacity.
turbo500
Well-known member
Ryan, I think you miss understood what I meant.
Jason pointed out that both the motor wattage AND air watts are important. I was saying that, in my experience, the motor watts are irrelevant to the performance of the cleaner.
Jason pointed out that both the motor wattage AND air watts are important. I was saying that, in my experience, the motor watts are irrelevant to the performance of the cleaner.
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
Would you gentlemen permit me to word it like this: It is how the cleaner is built which matters, and how that then produces the final product; the air watts.
So, electrical wattage, design and size of motor, and design of the ducting all goes towards the air watts. To say electrical watts do not matter is both right and wrong, because as the old cylinder cleaners prove, a low wattage motor is not great, but as Turbo500 suggests, the 800watt Numatic machines certainly did raise the gain. So in that instance I think it is fair to say a motor needs around 800-1000 electrical watts to hit it's stride.
Put that electrical rating to a well designed cleaner and the motor, and there you have ample air watts. Dyson proved this on the DC04 where the tubes were such that airflow and suction was maximised. After that came the DC07 with extra cyclones and a redesigned cyclone unit, proving again what 'design' can do. As has been said so many times, cleaners today are not built to maximise a relativley low electrical watt motor, they just have cheap designs and high wattage motors to compensate for it. One can only imagine the power behind a 2500 watt motor which was designed to the standard of the 1970's Electrolux cylinder motor, fitted to a model 345. The cleaner would implode for sure.
However, to bore you all again, I return to my original point; how do we know what air watts are 'enough'?
So, electrical wattage, design and size of motor, and design of the ducting all goes towards the air watts. To say electrical watts do not matter is both right and wrong, because as the old cylinder cleaners prove, a low wattage motor is not great, but as Turbo500 suggests, the 800watt Numatic machines certainly did raise the gain. So in that instance I think it is fair to say a motor needs around 800-1000 electrical watts to hit it's stride.
Put that electrical rating to a well designed cleaner and the motor, and there you have ample air watts. Dyson proved this on the DC04 where the tubes were such that airflow and suction was maximised. After that came the DC07 with extra cyclones and a redesigned cyclone unit, proving again what 'design' can do. As has been said so many times, cleaners today are not built to maximise a relativley low electrical watt motor, they just have cheap designs and high wattage motors to compensate for it. One can only imagine the power behind a 2500 watt motor which was designed to the standard of the 1970's Electrolux cylinder motor, fitted to a model 345. The cleaner would implode for sure.
However, to bore you all again, I return to my original point; how do we know what air watts are 'enough'?
sebo_fan
Well-known member
Well, as I did say in my post originally - its how airflow is maintained, how well sealed the vacuum is and if it has sealed suction. However, Benny even if a vacuum cleaner is well built, the air watts can't be trusted because they diminish as soon as the bag or filter gets clogged up with dust.
Where other confusion can often happen between global consumers and buyers is that the old adage that the higher wattage a vacuum cleaner's motor has, the better suction it will produce. This then leads to the three type vacuum cleaner processes; dirty fan, clean fan and tandem air. I recall there were other threads on here regarding dirty fan vs clean air.
In so far as a dirty fan vacuum cleaner producing a better "cleaning action," versus high powered clean air vacuums, the use of air watts to suggest that one is better than the other would probably show that the air watts is lower from a dirty fan compared to that of the higher motor built into a clean fan system. Yet... when you think about it, we, as buyers and consumers are only going by our own experiences - thus air watts can't really be trusted as law.
It would be fine if all vacuums maintained suction all the time when or if bags got to their fullest, or if that paper pleated cone filter in a cheap bagless brand never clogged. Air watts could therefore be more trustworthy and consistent. It appears to me air watts has been overused and is thus a false promise - a bit like "lifetime filters."
Where other confusion can often happen between global consumers and buyers is that the old adage that the higher wattage a vacuum cleaner's motor has, the better suction it will produce. This then leads to the three type vacuum cleaner processes; dirty fan, clean fan and tandem air. I recall there were other threads on here regarding dirty fan vs clean air.
In so far as a dirty fan vacuum cleaner producing a better "cleaning action," versus high powered clean air vacuums, the use of air watts to suggest that one is better than the other would probably show that the air watts is lower from a dirty fan compared to that of the higher motor built into a clean fan system. Yet... when you think about it, we, as buyers and consumers are only going by our own experiences - thus air watts can't really be trusted as law.
It would be fine if all vacuums maintained suction all the time when or if bags got to their fullest, or if that paper pleated cone filter in a cheap bagless brand never clogged. Air watts could therefore be more trustworthy and consistent. It appears to me air watts has been overused and is thus a false promise - a bit like "lifetime filters."
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
And added to that, no one knows how many air watts are really needed. Did I mention this?
vintagerepairer
Well-known member
Yes I thought I had. Are you the gentleman with the 1977 Hoover Ranger?
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