that ugly keeler thread

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vacuumssuck213

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Well guys I just went and read that old Jim keeler thread. And I can't help but think or wonder if we chased off a genius of sorts I'm not for or against his product but if half the things on his about keeler page are true he really could have been a valuable asset to this community instead everyone attacked him for it I know he was a little one sided and really only made a account to promote his investment but I can't help but feel he knows more we first given him credit for. I also realize we have a few former Kirby trainers and so on in this community I can't remember who they are and weather it be life or just dis intrest in threads I havint seen these guys around what am I missing here is this site losing steam?
 
He wasn't a genius. Just a vac shop repair man who had some good ideas that didn't pan out. In the 1980's he 'devised' a way of adding a Hoover Dial-A-Matic transmission and wheels to a Kirby (and a Bison), along with the Hoover handle. The Kirby was another six inches longer than usual, making it VERY hard to use. He marketed his 'conversion' to power drive kit, directly to other vac shops. You could either buy the 'kit' or buy a Kirby already converted to power driven wheels. It was a tragedy. You couldn't give one away, they were so big and heavy.

His next 'invention' was the bagless conversion kit. In reality, it was a Eureka Optima dirt bin and filter, with a Kirby coupler. Talk about cutting down airflow and suction to the point of almost non-existence. Because the Kirby is always running as if the bag is full, the motor speeds way up - using your carbon brushes at a tremendous rate. Truly bad for the machine. Not to mention the person who has to empty it, and bang the filter.

Instead of 'inventing' a different use for an existing product, he should have spent his time actually inventing something useful and novel that he could sell and make money with. Kind of like what James Dyson did.
 
Oh brother, this old thing again. I still stand by everything I said in the original thread.

Mr. Keeler signed up to this forum for one reason only - to flog his crap to us. He wasn't interested in any form of actual discussion about the pro's and con's of this "invention" and refused to accept that the product had any design flaws. If he'd put his hands up and said "ya know what, folks, it's not perfect, but what the hell is?" and been accepting of both the praise AND criticism equally like any good businessman should be, the outcome would've been very different.

He signed up to this forum KNOWING we are enthusiasts, many of whom have dedicated huge parts of their lives to studying and collecting vacuums. Collectively, we know our stuff. But he didn't care about that. He was very disrespectful towards other peoples opinions and experience. Like I said, he wasn't interested in anything except drumming up business for his mediocre product.
 
Gentlemen!

I just got done reading through 9 pages of the infamous Keeler Krap, what a read! Full of drama, suspense, and spelling errors! 
smiley-tongue-out.gif
 
I read the truck mount thread, and wholly cow that man can BRAG! Every post of his, "I have been in the business for 40 years", and so on. Even on that thread he will not except criticism. 
 
That's the problem. He only makes money if some stupid person buys something from him. He might have been in business for 40 years but that's meaningless. Most (not all) vac shop owners are rip off artists. So is Mr. Keeler. The problem is that Mr. Keeler is used to selling his crap to the average person who owns a Kirby, not enthusiasts who spend their money restoring said Kirby to original condition. It makes no difference to Mr. Keeler that his 'invention' (a Eureka dirt bin and filter) doesn't function properly - it only matters that he sells it. He should have known better than to try and sell his junk to US.
 
It kind of..

Reminds me of the Haileys Comet,Now dont get me wrong, I would love to have one...and that big old rug nozzle actually cleans very well, but overall its a monstrosity, just like the Bison was, Someone trying to better a product that was already about as good as it could get...Compact/ Haileys Comet.....Kirby/ Bison....you get the idea!Im not belittling the inventors, just saying...Everyone has tried to copy a Compact and improve it...the only one even close was the Air Storm, and its "inventor" was a former Compact president...
 
I think this is the thread. Correct me if I am wrong - http://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?7229

The whole concept of converting a bagged vacuum such as a Kirby into a bagless one seems rather ridiculous and pointless. Those who are buying a Kirby know that they are bagged vacuums, or is one going to pay thousands of pounds for a vacuum in the hope that one day it will be bagless? You see what I mean?

It doesn't take a genius here. Kirbys are bagged vacuums, with airflow and the architecture of the entire vacuum cantered around it using a bag. I fail to see how this man could ever had imagined using a plastic container with a cheapo cone pleated filter was actually a viable alternative. I don't completely dislike bagged vacuums, I just prefer bagless, but trying to make it into something it is not is just wrong, not to mention damaging to the vacuum.

I remember to old cone pleated filters inside the dirt containers on bagless vacuums sort of 8 years ago before they went to cyclonic technology which is obviously more efficient.

As someone mentioned on the thread, if he was serious into doing something like what he was trying to do, why not a system similar to dysons cyclone technology? I think many people will agree Dysons bagless systems are the best in the industry, rightly so considering the patents on it, although other manufactures come close.

I don't know. That is certainly something I would do be into. Buy a bagged cleaner if you like bags, buy a bagless if you don't. Simples.

Have these conversions caught on at all in the Kirby community, dare I ask ?
 
No, Keeler's bagless conversion kit has never caught on, mostly due to the fact the the filter got clogged after 5 minutes of vacuuming and then the canister emptied and filter removed and cleaned before you could continue.


 


For those of you who haven't seen Keeler's video on the Kirby bagless conversion, here it is:


 




[this post was last edited: 10/5/2014-12:28]
 
Converting a Kirby into a bagless is pointless...

Well not quite. It depends on what you call "bagless." Bagless according to the Dyson mantra is the end of having to buy replacement dust bags. However before Dyson was ever created, bagged brands like Hoover used reusable fabric dust bags INSIDE the soft bag. Im sure the Kirby may well have had the same. Those were created when dust bags had run out and owners certainly recall those kind of bags being quite dirty to clean out.

Before that, models like the Hoover Junior 119 (and some others before that) never originally had a paper dust bag but just collected dirt and put it into the outer soft bag.
 
Just read the original thread... Wow lol. That did get kinda ugly. As far as chasing away a genius, I don't think we have to worry about that, a Kirby was not designed to be bagless. Why would you want to put some dirt cup off of a Walmart vacuum on a $1300+ vacuum? Wouldn't it destroy the great kirby filtration? The bag is part of the filtration system and if you got rid of it, wouldn't it be just like a cheap, dust covered plastivac?
 
Oh soooo true lol. Just like with any other bagless vacuum. One of the reasons people buy Kirbys, aside from quality and power is the filtration. If you had really bad allergies and paid $1300+ for a Kirby to keep them in check, why would you pay an additional $100 for a generic dirt cup and have all the dust end up in your eyes, sinuses, & lungs?
 
Oli, Dyson's design cannot work on a Kirby. The Dyson cyclones work under negative pressure, while  the Kirby system works under positive pressure. I remember reading a post here a while back where a member tried to use the Dyson cyclones on the Kirby, and blew-out the seals in the bin.


 


For those who want to save bags the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">smart</span> way, they will make or purchase a reusable dump bag. That, or purchase a model that already uses the dump bag system (which is fine unless you have allergies or the like). 


 


Vaclover, it used to be the complete opposite in the 1960s and 1970s. Some people would attach a an F&G conversion kit to their new Kirby. I actually like this set-up, especially for those with allergies. There is nothing wrong to it, provided you use the proper bag (such as a Convertible type C, that's right John, I'm using Hoover products on my KIRBY! 
smiley-tongue-out.gif
).
 
Oli, Dyson's design cannot work on a Kirby. The Dyson cyclones work under negative pressure, while  the Kirby system works under positive pressure. I remember reading a post here a while back where a member tried to use the Dyson cyclones on the Kirby, and blew-out the seals in the bin.


 


For those who want to save bags the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">smart</span> way, they will make or purchase a reusable dump bag. That, or purchase a model that already uses the dump bag system (which is fine unless you have allergies or the like). 


 


Vaclover, it used to be the complete opposite in the 1960s and 1970s. Some people would attach a an F&G conversion kit to their new Kirby. I actually like this set-up, especially for those with allergies. There is nothing wrong to it, provided you use the proper bag (such as a Convertible type C, that's right John, I'm using Hoover products on my KIRBY! 
smiley-tongue-out.gif
).


 


During the 1980s, customers could still opt for a bagless Kirby. Models Tradition-Legend II all had the dump-bag option available (although, like the '13 nozzle, few opted for it).
 
With all the complaints about setting up and using a Kirby as it is. Who would want to go thru all those steps to attempt to even keep good air flow thru a bagless cup that already inhibits air flow as it is and lessens as the filter gets dirty. I want my Kirby with a bag. It was designed for maximun air flow for use with a large enough bag to allow good air flow and minimize restricted air flow.

I laughed when i saw his coversion several years ago and thought no way in the world would I ever buy that thing or shame my loyal Kirby with such a device.

I will gladly spring for the cost of replacement bags and be up and running again long before you could take that dirt cup off and begin the cleaning process of the filter. No sale here James Keeler
 
Yes, I am awear that the dyson cyclone system, like normal bagless canisters are designed to work on air being pulled through it, rather than being blown into it, but I am sure it is possible to reverse engineer the dyson cyclone system for it to work for dirty fan vacuums like the Kirbys, if someone had the time and effort to do it, which would seem pointless like a lot of us can agree on.

I still maintain there are pros and cons to bagless and indeed bagged vacuums. As much of the fact that there is dust cloud when you empty a bagless vacuum, such as my dyson which obviously is very dirty and unhygienic, dyson recommend putting a plastic bag over the container, which seems a bit pointless as the point of a bagless vacuum is that they are "bag-less". Then you have bags in bagged vacuums which the dirt can spend weeks rotting in the bag and air constantly being pumped through them, the bad odours which are can be caused, and so on.

Getting back to point, this was never going to work obviously. If you didn't want a bagged vacuum, why buy a Kirby? Did anyone know if this unit voided the warranties' on the kirbys themselves ?
 
The whole idea of a bagless filter contraption on a vacuum cleaner reiterates what a few brands have already offered, Oli. It isn't to replace the dust bag on board, but rather to offer a quick means of usage if the owner runs out of bags.

I would imagine the Keeler attachment mirrors the ill-fated "cyclonic chamber" tool that appeared in the late 2000s, sometimes given away for free with a QVC budget vacuum cleaner. I remember JML brought them out too - a mesh filter that fits over the handle of the cylinder vac and the suction tube pushed in underneath - these attachments are notoriously poorly made and not many stand up to their promise because they fail to lock properly to the tubes, despite twist screw locks on either side of the attachment.

A previous thread I created shows this tool and other "hopeless vacuum cleaner tools."




http://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?15740
sebo_fan-2014101209284806276_1.png
 
The whole idea of a bagless filter contraption on a vacuum cleaner reiterates what a few brands have already offered, Oli. It isn't to replace the dust bag on board COMPLETELY, but rather to offer a quick means of usage if the owner runs out of bags.

I would imagine the Keeler attachment mirrors the ill-fated "cyclonic chamber" tool that appeared in the late 2000s, sometimes given away for free with a QVC budget vacuum cleaner. I remember JML brought them out too - a mesh filter in a plastic cup that fits over the handle of the cylinder vac and the suction tube pushed in underneath - these attachments are notoriously poorly made and not many stand up to their promise because they fail to lock properly to the tubes, despite twist screw locks on either side of the attachment.

A previous thread (via link) I created shows this tool and other "hopeless vacuum cleaner tools."

http://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?15740
sebo_fan-2014101209284806276_1.png
 
Keeler? A shrugoff here

There are just a few people that talk about unbagging the Kirby here, but the only thing they get is some "hm hm" style turning away.

The same goes for the dreaded "Keeler thread" (I did not even know the name until now, the only thing known to me was that there must be some weirdo with a clumsy cyclone add-on to the Kirby)
After the above question "where is the link" I clicked it, read the first 2 lines in capitals and clicked the X-tab again: Capitals are yelling => yelling is not to be taken serious (troll behaviour) => yelling in the 90s = not having learned / yelling in the 2000s => severe issues, either anger or fear issues.
Topic closed here with me. One of those garage wannabe Einsteins again.

Btw. as a MediaMarkt salesperson told me: After some years of a hype the cyclones in general are on a receding salesline here in Germany. Anyone investing in a good machine gets high filtration bags, water basins or central units (or for the sake of it he/she will get "real" cyclones = multiple separation chambers if you decide to stay "cheapo" for whatever "savings" reason).

But well, to each his own.
 
The only reason that you can use a bagless technology on clean air vacuums is because of the style of motor and fan. you can spin them at higher rpms and not have the fan self destruct from heat and centrifical forces. Therefor compensating for smaller openings and longer air paths and those pesky filters that we are told don't exist but really do.

Dirty air machines have maxed out the speed at which you can spin the suction fan and not have the fan self destruct. To compensate for the reduced air flow thru the filter and a smaller capture container you would have to increase the speed of the motor another 50% at least to maintain the air flow that you get with a bag capture system. The fans on dirty air machines arent as sturdy as the metal sandwich fans found on canister vacuums and the clean air machines.
 
Kirby Motor RPM

FYI - The motor in the Kirby Sentria spins at 13,400 RPM in floor mode and over 16,000 RPM in hose 


and tool mode. This is about the same as some bagless vacuums proving that the new Kirby Amodel fan is indeed very sturdy.
 
It IS possible to blow the air and dust into a multi cyclonic filtration system. It's been done once and works very well. Dyson designed a dry carpet shampoo system to use Capture dry carpet shampoo, in 1989. It was called the Nova Dry. There was a fan to suck the dirt and powder from the carpet, and it blew the air and dust into the bin. The same shroud and dual cyclone were used. I have one in the collection and it works beautifully. One day, a progressive company will come out with an 8 pound upright with a dual cyclone chamber instead of a bag. Since a lot of 8 pound uprights are used commercially, this should solve bag clogging problems caused by all the asphalt dust that comes in on shoes from the parking lots.

In truth, this same design that Dyson used in 1989 could be adapted to the Kirby. But there's really no reason for it. The bag system (HEPA) on the Kirby works just fine.
 

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