Super J motor cleaning or maybe more...

[paul]

Reply #23

The green cleaner is one of the Canadian Electrolux classics, made from 1968 to 1973. It was designated by two slightly different models: ZB89 and 89E. The latter indicated the power hose inlet that was added around 1970.

Have you connected with avid Canadian vac collector/resarcher, Doug Smith? If not, here's his website: http://smithcollection.altervista.org/.

He is very knowledgable about many cleaners—Canadian and non-Canadian.

_____


I understand that the Super J 1401s (and upright model 1363s in harvest gold) were sold in Canada from around 1976 to 1977 due to a factory workers strike. The model B22 Canadian Electrolux shampooer-polisher's base was even painted the same color as the Super J 1401 during that time, and a "J" was added to the model ID to indicate the different color.

Btw, thanks for posting all the details about your motor work. That will be helpful to others who want to do the same. Your Super J 1401s look great!

I've attached a photo showing the Electrolux set of honey gold cleaners (I was corrected by someone after I annotated the photo that the salesman's award, the Golden G from the 1960s, was metallic gold and the '70s line was honey gold; he was probably one of those boys in school who had the 64-count Crayola box with the sharpener—haha).

 

[kirbylux77]

Paul, good info above about the Canadian Electrolux ZB89 & ZB89E. But one small correction to your information: The powerhead receptacle for the electric hose was ALWAYS on the 89, right from the start. You were thinking of the 86 & 88 there. If memory serves correct, it was the second version of the 86 & 88, from 1966 to 1968, that saw the addition of the bumpers & the powerhead receptacle. As for the electric hose, I believe that was 1971 it was finally changed from the outboard cord on the outside of the straight suction hose to the electric hose.

Rob

 

[eurekastar]

Congratulations on a job well done! About the only way I know to effectively rid the vacuum of the funky smell is to remove the motor field from the bell housing and wash the bell housing thoroughly with degreaser. If you don't want to remove the field, then use a brush to get as much accumulated dirt and carbon dust out as possible. Then I use alcohol with Q-Tips and rags to get into the nooks and crannies!

I love your determination. That's how we learn!

 

[quebecois]

Thanks everybody for your kind words. I don'T think I'd been successfull with that little project without your help, I probably would have broken something in the process.

As for the SuperJ I opened up for cleaning, not only does it smell like ozone when I begin to use it, but it seems it heats up significantly faster than my other J and the run down time is shorter by 2-3 seconds. Is it a sign the motor is sort of "tired" ?

Thank you Paul for the infos.

 

[quebecois]

Is that what you call the fields ?

 

[madman]

Yes, that's the field. It's technically an assembly of the two field coils (painted red on yours) and the iron/steel core or whatever it's called.

If you say the motor heats up fast, and there were those spots on the field coil that we were skeptical about, it's possible the field coils have an internal short. Get a wattmeter, or ammeter, actually most multimeters have an amperage setting, and run the vac through it to measure the amps/watts, and compare against the vac's rating. If it's way off, you have a problem.

If it's not, well, some motors just behave differently. Likely the smell you have is a combo of ozone from brush arcing, oil and bearing grease, and some remaining dust on the thing. And the spin-down time could simply be the new ball bearing, it does take a bit of break-in.

You sure the motor's not binding? Tried spinning it by hand, and listen for binding?

 

[quebecois]

I'm not sure what you mean by "binding". Yes, I turned the motor by hand, it was obviously a bit harder than with the worn bearing, but I'd say it was smooth and not sticking .

 

[madman]

Binding = sticking. New bearing makes it harder to turn? Like I said, they need to be broken in. Wouldn't worry about that.

 

[real1shep]

You need to pay more attention to how the brushes spark. The spark leaking out both sides of the brush should be small & even. Most of us serious about small motor repair use a commutator stone to seat new brushes. Lots of Youtube vids on that and how to use them. You also need to test the armature plates themselves; 90 degrees opposed and then side by side. This tests the integrity of the armature. Again, Youtube vids on that. And there should be a 'valley' between the commutator plates. When the commutator plates wear down, not only do they get uneven, but that 'valley' starts to disappear...it's to keep the plates separate but equal, sorta speaking.


 


You need an Elmer in this to walk you through your first couple of motor rebuilds. I've tried before in here and it just doesn't usually work from a keyboard.


 


Kevin

 

[quebecois]

Kevin, thanks for the info. I didn't replace the brushes, these inside are the old ones, as they were still a tad longer than one inch.

I'm waiting for my kill-a-watt multimeter to arrive by mail, I'll do the amp test with the motor running as soon as I get it and report my readings.

 

[real1shep]

 If you have a VOM, you can test the armature very easily from a Youtube vid. Most of the dealers replaced the Super J armatures if they had any sort of motor failure...was just easier that way (with new brushes). I've seen literally boxes of used armatures at older Elux dealers. I have boxes of new Super J armatures, but I also have a small pile of unrestored Super J's.


 


If your armature doesn't test out, doing anything more with the motor is mute. Amp draw is a somewhat reasonable way to deduce if your armature is OK.


 


Kevin

 

[quebecois]

I had a look at a few videos on YouTube and now I know what you mean by small and even arcing and armature testing and coil testing, thanks.

Some fun to come ! I have a regular multimeter that I will use for the static testing of the armature and the coils, and I'll use the kill-a-watt for the dynamic testing.

Do I absolutely need contact cleaner or is isopropyl alcohol ok?

 

[real1shep]

I have used denatureed alcohol for cleaning for decades. Only thing better than that is trichloroethane and CA decided that was a carcinogen to breathe, so it's pretty much outlawed in box stores at least.


 


Isopropyl doesn't have the cleaning strength of denatured alcohol.....and isopropyl should be 99% in use or you're putting water on your project. Just don't remove any of the protective covering of the coil or armature wiring.


 


I actually know how to make the coating for field and armature wires. But if things don't test out the motors are junk....would require them to be rewound....which is impractical with so many motors still out there yet to find and of course the expense. But...if you have say a power supply for some vintage electronic unit that's fried....sometimes it pays to rewind.


 


Kevin


 


 

 

[quebecois]

I found some denaturated alcohol at my Home Hardware, 1 litre for 14$, not cheap, it is 85% ethanol and 15% methanol, will it be ok for cleaning contacts?

I also received my current monitor. I tested all of my Electrolux vacuum cleaners , including AP-100, E-2000 and both SuperJs (I don't have my new-to-me BJ89 here).

Here are the readings without and with the power nozzle

AP-100:__________5.7 A______and_______7.1 A (I don't have the specs for the PN)

E-2000___________8.0 A________________9.7 A within specs

Best SuperJ______7.7 A_(specs 7.2 A)_____9.3 A (specs 9.7 A)

Cleaned SUperJ___8.2 A________________9.7 A


Both SuperJs are out of specs without the PN, the best one by 7% and the one I cleaned by 14%. I'm a bit surprised they are within specs with the PN, though.

I'll definitely have to take it apart again and test the armature and coils.

I'd be interested in knowing the specs for the AP-100, it's the more noisy of the group (sort of grinding while running down).

 

[madman]

Honestly don't think you need to bother with the 'best' super j. It's only out of whack by 0.5A, that's negligible. The cleaned one, however, is off by a whole amp. That's... kind of a lot.

Something's up with that one. I'd suspect that field has an internal short. You know you can test each field coil separately, the assembly should have 4 wires, 2 go to the brushes, and 2 are input line voltage. So ohm across 1 brush wire and 1 line wire on the same side, for each individual field coil. In fact, you probably don't need to take apart the good super j (to compare values), because I'd wager one coil would read different from the other. You'd know immediately. If one of the two coils has a lower resistance than the other, that's the smoking gun. Or one segment of the armature.

Also, fun fact, denatured alcohol is called that because it has been 'denatured,' in this case, it has been deliberately poisoned with methanol so you won't drink it (and the gov't won't lose the tax revenue from people drinking it instead of vodka). In all fairness, 90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol would really do the same job, all alcohol has some measure of water in it, well, outside of laboratory conditions, anyhow.

 

[quebecois]

Madman , I don't plan on opening the good SUperJ for testing, just the one I cleaned, which is the same that has the cracked cord spool.

I did a research on YouTube and found two good tutorials for testing these motors with a multimeter, I'll follow the procedure and report my readings.

 

[quebecois]

If anyone has the specs for the AP-100 with the power nozzle, i'll be glad to compare with my current readings, the only spec I saw on the machine was 5.0 A

 

[quebecois]

I just finished testing the armature and the coils and everything looks fine.

My readings are very, very consistant from stack to stack with both 180 degrees and side-to-side tests. The third test showed no continuity between the stacks and the armature.

As for the coils, both resistance readings are very similar, and I didn't find any continuity between the laminated stack and any of the coil wire.

Are there other tests I should perform while i'M in there ?

 

[madman]

Hmm... there probably is some other test that I'm not aware of.

 

[real1shep]

There is no comparison between the cleaning power of denatured alcohol and even 99% isopropyl alcohol. I don't want to get into a debate over it, or the chemical differences. I could use either and have used both chemicals. If there was no significant difference, I'd use isopropyl as it's much cheaper. The water content in isopropyl alcohol less than 99% has always been an issue in vintage electronics.


 


Kevin

 

[real1shep]

François, if all the tests prove positive I wouldn't go any further electrically. If you knew the factory RPM of a unloaded Super J motor, you could test that with the correct equipment. I think you found your answers. Make sure your brushes have minimal spark on both sides of the brush and when you sping the motor by hand it's free & smooth from any roughness. 


 


Only thing that concerns me from your work description is the wind down. You say it's worse now with a new bearing. Any work I've ever done on a vac motor has always made the wind down better, not worse. I don't know what's going on there. A quality replacement bearing shouldn't have to 'break in' and cause your wind down to decrease. That's all I can offer you without being there. 


 


Kevin

 

[real1shep]

<a name="start_36248.388803"></a>The bronze bushing is likely oilite (oil impregnated). You can tell by looking with a magnifying glass and seeing it looks dirty, black spotted, or porous.
I've heard of soaking the oilite bushings in hot oil and letting them cool before removing to replenish the oil lost over time, but I'm not sure it is necessary,....but couldn't hurt.


 


This is Frakenscience. Sintered bushings that are oil impregnated are either 'dry' impregnated or 'wet' impregnated. A 'dry' impregnated sintered bushing should never be wet oiled by any lay process. What this can cause is galling eventually, because you'll never get all the dry lubricant out of the bushing. 'Wet' impregnated sintered bushings can simply be cleaned with solvent and reoiled. If it is small enough you can place it on your thumb, fill it with oil then place another finger on top and squeeze the new oil through the sintered bushing. The oil will sweat through to the outside and if does so evenly the bearing is OK. Use 20wt or 30wt non-detergent oil depending on the application.


 


Kevin


 


 

 

[quebecois]

I don't think I ever wrote that the wind-down time is worse now than before, it is just worse than the "good" SuperJ, the one that doesn't smell weird.

My multimeter is an old Mastercraft with different scales for volts and ohms and amps. It is not digital. I put the selector on RX1 which is the lowest setting on mine. I'll redo the tests and see if my readings are consistant again.

How would you explain that this vac is out of specs without PN and in specs with it?

I also realized that all of my cleaners draw less amps after a few minutes than after they start, let's say 5% less, is it a result of the armature becoming more conductive when hot?

I also would need a hint on how I could have the motor running while it's out of the vac body. I'd need leads, I suppose, to connect the motor to the connectors on the back of the reel cord assembly ?

 

[real1shep]

I misunderstood then....I though you said its wind down was now longer than before. 


 


Analog meters are great, especially if they are kept calibrated....you get no 'ghost' readings as is the norm in digitals. You can tell a lot with a big analog meter and how the needle swings.


 


I've never done the spec thing with Electrolux motors....more interested in actual lift & CFM. Most all electric motors of this type will draw more amps on start-up and then reduce a bit while running easy. Work them hard though and they'll draw up to maximum.


 


Yeah, just jumper the wires to power the motor itself....be mindful of the torque and the juice.


 


Kevin



http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmjFzukDhqI

 

[real1shep]

...and this link:


Do ALL the tests and if they fail one test, they're probably no good.


 


Kevin



http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUzKAxZ9pJ8

 

[quebecois]

Exactly what I did , plus this one:

 

[quebecois]

Just did both tests again, with same very consistant readings and no continuity.

 

[quebecois]

I plan on bolting the motor back in the can without its plastic cover before watching sparks or arcing, so torque and juice won't be hazards.

 

[real1shep]

Good plan....looks like we found the same two links. I also watched a guy rewind a armature....not for the faint hearted. Don't know how anyone would have the time. The copper wire was coated but they don't show any coating other than that. There are services too that do that. As I said earlier, unless it's super rare it's just easier to find another one.


 


The Super J's when new could suck the skin off a moose belly. Electrolux Canada might have had something stronger, but that was our tour de force here.


 


Kevin

 

[madman]

@real1shep The guy probably had the time to rewind the motor because having motors rewound is very expensive. And it's not cost-effective unless it's a big expensive motor, or something antique and irreplaceable. Never rewound one myself, I'm sure it's tedious, but it's not complicated. You know they sell motor insulating varnish, in rattle cans and in liquid form. So one could do the job properly if one were so inclined.